1. What it is that brought you to the world of Arabian Horses, and led you to focus on Straight Egyptian Arabian Horse breeding?

I have grown up at my home with horses since my childhood and welcomed every book about horse breeds wherever I could find it. So I did know about the Arabian breed before I worked in my agro-business activity with Babolna State Farm in Hungary, famous for their traditional Arabian horse breeding and later on with the Ministry of Agriculture in Egypt. One day in 1963 I visited with Dr. Ameen Zaher, at that time under-secretary of the Ministry of Agriculture, the Arabian Horse Stud of El Zahraa, and in a minute after having seen these horses I was sure: This is the type of an Arabian horse I liked to have at home in the future. Only in looking at them made me decide. I had not any idea about quarrels over pedigrees, about Asil or Blue List Arabians and whatsoever.

In selecting and buying my first four mares I was in all important cases relying on the opinion of Dr. Zaher who had worked as a young veterinarian in El Zahraa since 1936 and was still at the time of my first visit their breeding adviser. What this Dr. Zaher was telling and teaching me became the essence of knowledge which is still valuable for my decisions in my own breeding activity today.

2. We often see the parade of assumption and opinions, being purported as facts. This being the case, it’s best to look for common opinion, and the fundamental logic behind breeding of Straight Egyptian Arabian Horses.  What would be a few assumptions that you feel you have addressed in your years of involvement with Straight Egyptian Horses which now gives all of us the ability to dispel some rumors, and stand on solid ground in terms of a widely shared and overall accepted opinion?

I am confronted as well with rather vague opinions, and I know some of the arguments about the pros and contras for certain horses and families within the Egyptian Arabian horse population. To be honest, I do not care about it! I am breeding an Arabian which satisfies my personal intentions. Since I have been spending half of my professional life in the Middle East I became an “orientalist”. I like to have horses around me which express this flair of Arabia and remain fit for such an environment. I never expected that everybody shared such views, and I do respect as well when other breeders tend to an Arabian which is bred according to more European and American taste and understanding in horsemanship: Wonderful and impressive horses which enjoy a great acceptance by the public today. At the same time I noticed as well that just those who argue so much have themselves not an exact idea of what they want to achieve, but this point is of vital importance.

Painting: by Von Mayr

Being involved in professional breeding of other livestock, I am well aware that a clear definition of one’s breeding aim is the first requirement for any success. The Egyptian horse population in El Zahraa is composed, in comparison to other well known Arabian populations, of a relatively small number of foundation horses; it is quite a close population. Their horses were bred for two purposes: A traditional Arabian as Abbas Pasha and his followers collected them and an Arabian for racing to satisfy the racing community in Egypt. It would not be wise to mix them and, if wanted, with great care. We all should know and it is a fact that there is a great variety of phenotype in the Arabian breed, also in this Egyptian population. It is up to each breeder or Arabian horse enthusiast to choose from this pool of Egyptians and to pursue his own type. Rumours about their more or less pure origin are of no importance to me. Anyhow, there is no solid proof: If we like it or not, we have to believe. There was neither a bloodtype nor any DNA. We have to be practical. I think the responsible directors of El Zahraa at any time have chosen with great care their horses when they established the Royal Agricultural Society and later on the EAO.

3. Jane Llewellyn Ott, author of the *Blue Book stated in regards to how the Bedouin selected their horses for breeding, “A breeding prospect should always be judged on its bloodlines first, and its own merits afterwards. The reason for this is that an animal can transmit from any and all of its immediate progenitors, not just from those it happens to resemble itself.  And ‘immediate’ means heaven only knows for how many generations.”
Could you please comment further on this quote, and also give your opinion on the idea of selecting by genotype and phenotype? Also, does there come a point when the genotype is no longer a factor such as when the foundation horses are set in place and well bred through to guarantee a reliable degree of predictability? 

What Mrs. Ott is stating as breeding idea of the Bedouins has to be accepted as it is said. However, I would not share this advice if its philosophy means that only the genotype would count. I am sure today we know better, and we also understand that breeding and selection is a very complicated subject and may cause a lot of headache, even for scientists. My thoughts are as follows:

4. As a follow up question do you believe that although there are many glorious lines and families out there in Straight Egyptian that not all lines no matter how great they are work best with each other?

I know within the Egyptian population exists a variety of types. Certain families produce more or less a certain type of horse. Each breeder can choose horses from such a family which would please him most. It is also a fact that the general public prefers certain families to others. However, again not all horses from such a preferred family are equal or resemble each other. With “family” I mean a dam family based on a certain foundation mare. If mares belonging to such a family are bred to stallions of different types, such a family starts to be unreliable and cannot be considered as a solid cornerstone in a breeding programme.  They remain a member of that family; in breeding they follow a different trend. Otherwise their type could be possibly be maintained.
Again, a clear description how such so-called “glorious” lines or families look like is difficult to find and when asking mostly vague answers are given. However, a good breeder must have an idea for its own sake.

Moniet el Nefous and her best known daughters Mabrouka and Mouna. MONIET EL NEFOUS is a good example as a foundation mare.

Moniet el Nefous has the longest pedigree of all the El Zahraa horses. She herself is the 11th generation of the known horses since 1845. Her ancestors were bred for 4 generations in the RAS. The 7 earlier generations were in the hands of Pashas who brought the foundation originally from the Peninsula.

MAHIBA, daughter of Mouna, as a 2-years-old in El Zahraa, one of the most influential Egyptian mares in Germany (13th generation)

Two generations later: a Mahiba granddaughter (15th generation)

In animal breeding exists the terminus technicus “nickebility”. This means a sire and a dam nicely fit each other in giving good products. This fact applies to two or three individuals. By example, a breeder would say about a combination, “this is a good Morafic-son out of Karamanah by Anter”. Such lucky findings do exist. This could also apply to families, if the involved families are bred homogeneously enough in itself. To find such  families in the Egyptian breeding is difficult, but they could be established by time, or, in other words, by studying past generations or by studying continuously the breeding of further generations. One could find out how high is the homogeneous degree.
It is obvious that such a procedure needs a certain number of horses. It cannot be done in small numbers. It needs a continuous follow up and again it needs a clear understanding what is the aim of breeding.

5. In regards to the word tolerance, it is well known throughout the history of the Arabian horse there are always many schools of thought on what is best, most desired, what is right, what is wrong, what is proven, what is myth, or set traditions on how to breed these horses.  It seems at times, one of the only things which has remained constant through the history of the Arabian horse is controversy and clashing of opinions. Do you feel that a dogmatic approach towards one way thinking over a broad spectrum of different types and attributes of breeding Arabians is best for the livelihood and future of the breed and why?  Would it be best to use a higher degree of tolerance for each other, knowing that in the end, the versatility is what sets this breed apart from all others?

Any dogmatic approach to breeding is a backslide into the dark Middle Age. Breeding requires a realistic approach in all its phases. We are learning continuously and there remains much to discover and to understand, and we should appreciate that the Egyptian Arabian horse population shows still a good variety. It was never a homogeneous breed. Alone the fact that Arabian horses were bred from Yemen in the South up to the Turkish borders in the north over hundreds of years indicates that there must be variations, due to environment, climate, feed and also due to the preference of those breeders living in that area. Also the Arabian population in El Zahraa traces back to horses which were brought from the Arabian Peninsula or trace back to Bahrain and Syria as well. Therefore there must be and there will always remain a variety of type, and not only a variety of type, but also a variety in abilities. Some might be more suited to be beauties and gentle animals; others have a strong character and exile in racing and endurance power and are valued in this respect.

It is regrettable that we do not know enough about all these appreciated abilities. We should care more about them. In history Arabians were used in battlefields and for racing and at the same time considered as a decoration in the palaces of the great sheikhs and rulers. This has not changed. I like the word “tolerance” very much. One should accept all these manifold approaches of others, and if this other person is an intelligent person one will learn from him and increase one’s own knowledge.

6. Nature seems to seek common order. It seems to move from order to disorder as opposed to order moving to greater order. It is the great equalizer. Nature only lends to great extremes through disruptions in order which are often violent extremes.  It is difficult then to breed for an extreme result knowing this. Yet, it is true the Arabian itself is of the most extreme in all equine in that it has survived nature, and not common to all other equine.
This makes one wonder if the type in Arabian horses is either completely manmade, which defies his history or if in fact he was set upon this earth as the true axis of all equine. When we do see extremes in attributes come forward it would then be logical to conclude it had to have existed before or more likened to what the origins resembled. And that being the case, we have seen in several if not many instances where groups of horses bred together will out produce their ancestors. My question in here to you is what do you feel, Dr Nagel, is one of the key reasons we see such a return to variety of type and although we hear terms such as ‘exotic’ or ‘extreme’ to relate to type, is it really so extraordinary, or is it simply the fact that a breeder has touched upon the axis which existed before?

Nature, so it seems, seeks common order. This is correct, but this common order tends to lead to an average. It is the intention of breeding efforts to move away from the average in order to be better. All breeding efforts are directed to choose the better animal. Everybody knows the curve of distribution of a population for a given criteria. Most of those criteria lie in the middle of the curve, the lower values on the left side of the curve and the preferred ones on the right side. Every good breeder looks to the right side of the curve.  If one breeds the animals of the right side to the ones of the left side, the difference is very great and the offspring which can be expected have a big question-mark, particularly for further breeding. If one breeds average to average one will receive again an average, and if one breeds the right side horses to the right side horses, one will receive a better horse. Animal breeding today is based on such procedures and all our domesticated livestock, from cattle to chickens, are selected this way for generations and have been improved dramatically in their capabilities. This applies to horses as well, but it also indicates that upgrading from a low level is very difficult. That the Arabian horse has such an important position in the history of horse
breeding can be attributed to its unique fate to have been bred in isolation over hundreds of years on the Arabian Peninsula under very harsh conditions. There extreme conditions on this Peninsula did not invite people to immigrate, but rather to emigrate. The Arabian horse has taken advantage from this particular situation; they were quite disconnected from other breeds. The fact that horses are relatively resistant to in-breeding has furthermore supported the existence of such a breed to remain sound and solid and this by natural and human selection. All this resulted in different types, since nobody has prevented people from selecting their horses according to the needs of the population at that time.

7. Prepotency is a widely used term in Straight Egyptian breeding.  While many believe this is part of the reason a breeder is induced to breeding their Egyptians as they are generally more prepotent than regular stock thus producing more favorable stock as opposed to more ‘un’favorable stock.  We should discuss more precisely what a truly prepotent breeding stallion or mare is.
If a horse having only so many  sets of chromosomes bred to another and considering the number of genes, the amount of different possibilities would be over 30 million different possibilities. The logical tendency then is to produce a variation of the stallion or mare, rather than produce with great consistency. It would make one conclude then, that prepotency in Straight Egyptian breeding, can only exist through line breeding or a degree of inbreeding of genetic material otherwise it is the production of characteristics and attributes of the Arabian horse in general.
While it is true that any horse within Straight Egyptian during this era have a common degree of inbreeding which is higher than the general domestic equine population.  Could you explain, in your opinion the difference between what is generally prepotent in Egyptian Arabians vs. what is more specifically prepotent for a family of horses who have been bred purposefully with the intent to carry forward certain attributes with a greater degree of predictability?

AMURATH in Marbach/Germany

SKOWRONEK in Crabbet Park have influenced over generations the Arabian breed.

Also such famous strong horses definitely exist in Egyptian breeding and these are the ones who have influenced the whole breed. The straight Egyptian breed is not as a whole prepotent, but some horses within this Egyptian breeding are prepotent. Normally such a prepotency will vanish in two or three generations and new prepotent horses will show up. This is the observation in sire lines. It is correct we should not only discuss which are those prepotent stallions. There are also those prepotent mares which do not lose their characteristics even if bred to different stallions. However, we do not know enough about this, most probably because too many different stallions involved do play a role. In stallions, we have some great names which are so obvious that everybody could recognise them, like Nazeer in Egypt, like Aswan I Tersk, Morafic and Ibn Halima in the States. Nazeer and these three sons could be named as prepotent stallions, but also their influence will vanish as well and new stallions will emerge which are now showing their value. What remains in time is only their name. They new ones determine the future.

NAZEER is without doubt the uncompeted star of new Egyptian breeding. He became the sire of El Zahraa’s best mares and of at least 3 excellent world-wide known stallions. However, it looks that their dams contributed heavily to this success.

MORAFIC, chief stallion of Gleannoch Farms in the US.

IBN HALIMA, the stallion which has created the fame of Ansata Stud.

ASWAN, the son of Nazeer in Tersk, which has added to the Russian breeding type and elegance

One is entering the area of speculation if one thinks concerning prepotency about a group of horses. Prepotency is attributed more or less to a single animal, and here again the result of prepotency could be that the offspring sometimes looks very similar to this dominant parent or only in certain parts. Such effects are easily to recognise. However, if one wants to look for prepotency of a family, one has to study well which desired characteristics can be attributed to this family and how they can be reproduced. In this case the question would be “which is one of the very few characteristics out of this family which could be found in a remarkable higher number”. Then one has to concentrate onto this direction and maybe receive confirmation in the offspring. Such appreciated characteristics can be discovered and one can find out that they will be transmitted. This would be a very valuable experience. However, it is important to look at the same time to the sire side in order to match these positive results which must be both on the right side of the distribution curve, as we have mentioned before. Otherwise such positive element might not remain and vanish again.