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From: Saskatchewan, Canada
Member No.: 2242
This summer I had a breeder here from overseas. Her first question about most of my horses was "Does he/she go back to Nasrulla?"
I don't have any lines to The Minstril or Thee Desperado. But I DO have a SE mare that was on the list that was accepted by AK only a few years ago. I believe her extended pedigree holds a horse that overseas breeders are NOT interested in, but I don't even know if it is the same one. A couple of years ago I had someone from Isreal VERY interested in a couple of my mares, but he was NOT interested in the SE daughter of the above mentioned mare. He would not tell me why. She is one of my best, if not the best, mare that I have. NONE of that mattered to him.
Who is this horse, Nasrulla? What is it that they don't like about the horse? Why has SE and AK accepted the horse, and yet some breeders will not? Are there other horses that are also "in question", and why?
I was the first guest to reply to this discussion, and yes Daniel I agree that SE should be SE and it is stupid. However, when you have a small group of VERY admired and VERY influential breeders who are so adamently vocal about NOT having this blood, it creates a stigma. While YOU can say there is nothing wrong with this blood, you cannot convince THEM because as I said.... if it was included in their program it would make their horses not so special! And these are VERY admired breeders. That is why you don't see Nasrullah blood in Qatar. Once again, a group of relatives, sitting around, discussing their horses, giving their opinions.... It started out there as each farm just wanting to win. Then it had to be the farm had to have something SPECIAL. To set it apart. Even if they didn't win at the shows, they had something different. And they have created a group of buyers in Kuwait and other countries based on the fact that they have something special.
As I said, good marketing tool for your lower level horses. I mean, what is the percentage of really TOP foals produced by a farm??? 1-2% of their foals. The others are very nice to nice, and then there are a few at the bottom (mainly colts...unless you happen to be lucky). Obviously you show the 1%, and some of the better of the "very nice" ones. YOu keep and breed these. But the mid-level ones and the lower level ones you need to sell. They have buyers lined up to buy their midrange horses at VERY good prices.
There are two VERY highly respected long time breeders (one in Europe, one in the US) who also help perpetuate it. They have exchanged horses within their breeding programs, have been around for 50+ years, and have bred some tremendous horses. The people within the industry look to them for advice and treat them like Gods.
And not to take anything away from either of these breeders because they have BOTH contributed a lot to the industry and both have created their own 'look". However with this "look" have also come a lot of bad traits....incredibly bad legs and probably even worse feet. White eyes. No pigment. Because the only part concentrated on was the head.
But they had many mid-range horses they had to get rid of in order to continue and advance their program. Who in the US buys white eyed pink skinned horses?? So how do they get rid of these horses? Well, both of these top breeders write books for one. Everyone knows them, everyone looks up to them and when they both had a potentially questionable horse in their pedigrees (Hanan) a book was written about the history of this lovely mare and BOOM! Legitmate once again. They actually created a "star" of this mare. Which she is if you look at her production record. MARKETING!!!
One time, in my presence, one of these top breeders (who, btw, is officially a member of the Minstril group, however I don't know if they ever bred to him even one time), was posed with the Nasrullah question from another person who has been involved with SE's for 30+ years. When asked, the breeder admitted that actually there is nothing wrong except that "their buyers" wouldn't accept it. Therefore, they didn't include it.
If this person really wanted to legitimize Nasrullah, they could have written a book about it and publicised it at the Egyptian Event and sold it in Europe like all the other books. But why??? What would be in it for them? It was a MUCH easier solution for them remain "nasrullah free" and use this as a selling point. The purest of the pure!!! And its worked! Any horse carrying the name of their farm can sell sight unseen to many of the middle east buyers...especially the newer ones who have become a part of this little group!
I disagree that it is perpetuated by the trainers. They just want to sell their clients horses because its a commission. Now it would be much easier to sell Nasrullah bred horses! But they can't because they have clients begging for "clean pedigreed" non-nasrullah, non-Tahawi, non-Sirecho horses! So as they travel, looking around for horses, they must ask for this....
The saudi's (Al Khalidiyah farm is what most people are referring to) do not have a SE breeding program. They want to win at any cost. They used to purchase the horses at the World Championships the night before they went in for the finals just so they could have their name announced as the winner and have their photo taken. They'd put options on horses or purchase them outright. But it was all dependant on if they won. So they don't care if its got Nasrullah or anything in it...if it wins, they want it. However, there ARE other breeders in SAudi who aren't as known as that particular farm and they also don't include Nasrullah. They have become part of this local marketing plan....so that now the Qatari's and others can sell their mid-range breeding horses.
There is one top breeding stallion that has produced some very nice foals, but has never shown out of his country because they are afraid he cannot win. He went to Europe and was presented there and bred there, but I don't think he was ever shown there. And within his country they use their influence to choose the judges that will WANT to see him do well.... judges who also have "clean pedigreed" programs, or have produced foals by him.
There was one particular show where this farm won everything. And while they do have some fabulous horses, this particular stallion got 17 on legs. He's a 14 on a good day. one of his legs goes every direction possible but forward! offset knees, offset cannons, offset feet..... one leg that swings in a circle as he trots.... But he won't win with a 14, will he? 20 on type, okay... 19 on head and neck (they gave 20's, I'd only give 19 cuz he's underslung... but either way I could live with the 20's). He's an 18 on body and a 14 on legs. Doesn't look good though, if he only gets that, does it?
One of the judges went home from that show "leasing" a colt from this farm. I believe the colt, now a stallion, shipped to the judges farm, where he remains to this day, several years later. Another one had a couple of more foals by him. Hmmmmm......
Someone with some INFLUENCE in this industry would need to write a book to legitimize Nasrullah. It would need to be someone that everyone looks up to. Unfortunately these aren't the ones who will benefit from having him legitimized.
Group: Members
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From: Münster
Member No.: 136
I WONDER WHY NOBODY EVER STUMBLED ABOUT THE QUESTIONABLE ELEMENTS IN NAZEER'S PEDIGREE ...
There is not more reliable info about the desert bed Meanagi Sbeyli and Donia then with El Nasser (Nasralla), Basheir El Ashkar & Badria (Hanan) and El Deree (Sid Abouhom). The new discussion about this is ridiculous. It has all been clarified and the definition of the PS is the gold standard of breeding SE. I really cannot accept anybody as serious and knowledgeable breeders anymore, who constantly deny facts and support rumours. Period.
dear dr.wigger, i own a se related gelding, but i hope some day i will be the owner of a straight egyptian. for me it is very interesting to learn as much as possible about egyptians, so what kind of breeder are you to tell other people what kind of discussion is rediculous or not, are you the moderator here? if you such an expirienced breeder please share your wisdom. thank you
We could all put this to rest if we, as breeders, had a good SE horse and REFUSED to sell it to anyone with prejudice in their region of the world. Unfortunately, most breeders, particularly small breeders, can't afford to turn down what amounts to "hitting the lottery" to make at least one really significantly high priced sale (which may pay for their program for the next 10-15 years)! If we would close ranks and refuse to sell--guess what? We might get less per horse, but I bet that prejudice would go away.
In the U.S. at least, we have to stop our silly marketing schemes, and get real about how to sell horses--and SUPPORT our clients! That is how to bring--and keep-- new people to SEs. Then--prejudice won't matter much, if we show the rest of the horse-interested world how great it is to own an SE. Wouldn't that be novel--rather than trashing each other's bloodlines?
The questionable pedigree of Hanan was "cleared up" by her owner and many breeders not only in Germany don't trust this "clearification" because it is full of doubtful explanations in their eyes. Why should these breeders accept this line in their breeding program when they fear that anytime anyone will write a book or an article which shows that the Hanan theory given by her owner was wrong? What will be when the breeder will have passed the rainbow bridge and will have lost his influence in calming his buyers or the owners of this Hanan line? Possibly all offspring could become again questionable... Is it wrong when breeders try to care for their lines and don't accept this mare? HER breeder makes perfect marketing in washing her pedigree clean not the breeders who don't use this blood. And that the owners of this line like Daniel try to "shut up" others shows us how intolerant THOSE breeders are!
Guest, I cannot buy into the idea that this is entirely about marketing horses when in fact none of these folks whom you are referencing depend upon their horses for income. While your long post may sound very convincing, you leave out this one critical element. Instead of looking at those who chose not to use Nasralla, you need to look at those who push it and what their motives are and ask why. This marketing maneuver that you refer to is actually being pushed by those who need to sell Nasralla blood to their clients because it goes through all their top horses... such as in the case of a few certain show barns and a few trainers and one or two power players who are into the 'business' end of breeding and selling SE horses and syndicated shares on these show horses. Lots of money at stake. They have a vested interest in this. Investors cried foul when told their horses didn't qualify for Al Khamsa. On the verge of people threatening to back out of their investments which could have led to bankruptcy on more farms, it was pushed through Al Khamsa. So who is playing who?
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Member No.: 192
Good morning everybody
I am gasping for air after reading these posts. I am asking everybody to print this post of mine out and keep it on record, so that we dont always and ever have to repeat things.
1) there is ABSOLSUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH "Nasralla" (Shahriar) (1956. the problem started when rumors went about, stating that his grand sire El Nasser" was not pure. They confused this grand sire "El Nasser(Diane) foaled in 1938 with "El Nasser" (1929)- a partbred, which had no progeny. (how can one confuse when there is a 7 year difference in birth, eh) But this confusion came through Raswan's entry. Had he been alive he would have noticed that there was no relation between these two horses.
All sorts of rumors flew around, like Henry Pharoun was dishonest, etc.etc. when in reality he is was highly respected breeder in Lebanon and the father of Generale El dahdah, a gentleman of high repute, and a wizard when t comes to pedgrees and purity, as is his son Eduardo.
Al Khamsa here munched over this subject for years and over 25 years ago I gave the correct data to them and kept pushing them until they finally voted to accept him some 8 years ago. This vote was finalized in 2003, because it takes them 5 years to okay things ultimately... (Al Khamsa takes always five years to perfect and accept something they had voted on.)a time limit totally unacceptable at this time and age.
El Nasser (Diane) (1938) was a successfull racer- raced : 18/8-5-3) and was bred by the Geheich Tribe/ahmed AlTaha, Jezir, Syrira. He was bought by H Pharoun in 1942, sold to Ahmed Abu El Futuh in 1943 and bought by the RAS in 1947. He produced 4 daughters and 7 sons, One daughter was :Sehr" (1948) a black mare out of Salwa, and she became the dam of Nasralla (Shariar).
Nasralla (Shariar) (1956) raced 3/9(4-2-2) did a mile in 1.49, 1m1F in 2.07 1m31 yds in 1.49.
Balance (1928) had nothing to do with the above, he was by Ibn Samhan out of Farida. His race record for one mile in 1.45 appears to be unbroken.
Anybody who is lucky enough to have the "Nasralla" blood in their breeding program should thank God. We imported Serenity Luftia (Nasralla (Shariar) x Nazeera in 1970. She became a multiple halter champion mare and excellent producer. Nasralla produced 38 daughters and 19 sons. the offspring and get I have seen weere by enlarge very good horses and athletes.
I trust, that this subject once and for all is settled, that all rumors stop unless someone has other facts I havent heard off during the past 40 years breeding SEs and my long years of research.
I also agree that stating "without this or that" is a confusing and misleading statement and geared for marketing only. I have noticed that often such statements are made by people who dont have a clue about breeding a good horse. A pedigree is most important, but it BETTER FITS THE HORSE.
As far as The Minstril is concerned, I dont believe that it has anything to do detrimentally because of El Nasser, but possibly because of incest and overbreeding.
Is there any real researcher who trusts the Hanan clarification? Is it reliable if an owner clears up these pedigrees himself? Is it objective? I can't believe that it is so easy to clear up a pedigree which is questionable since many decades... And everybody has to trust it - otherwise he will be called stupid or nasty...
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Member No.: 192
Both of you dear Guests
For heavens sake, cant you sign your name when you make detrimental statements so that you can be held accountable? Why are people signing as guest doing this? Trying to hurt the SEs??? Come from other breeds you have? If you cant stand up for your convictions, than dont say a thing please.
There is nothing wrong with Nasralla or Hanan. I explained many times the research done on both many years to you.
Bashir el-Ashkar (1935) came from Midhat Besharat Bey in Palestine and was a gift to King farouk in 1946. So was Badria and Badr. Al Khamsa accepted Bashir in 1995, and that after a long research. I assure you, once Al Khamsa accepts a horse it is like the bible. They are that accurat although as slow as a turtle.
I often feel that rumors and detrimental statements are made out of jealousy or total ignorance and those who do it, will not back such up. so when you all hear something, check it out thoroughly please.
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From: Heidelberg, Germany
Member No.: 81
QUOTE (Guest @ Oct 15 2006, 03:14 PM)
Guest, Hanan is an entirely different story from Nasralla. This horse is much more accepted globally than Nasralla.
I don't want to flame any discussion about Hanan's questionability as I greatly admire her offspring, but to me this is no argument, guest
Dear Hansi, I like looking at pedigrees and I do not at all want to deny their importance, but oh this is so true, "a horse is more important than it's pedigree"
I am new to SE's, still studying bloodlines, still reading about Hanan and don't know anything about Nasralla, yet. However, I did see and touch The Minstril in person and was disappointed. He had very bad legs, an unusually long neck, and his temperament left a lot to be desired; he had to be restrained and tried to bite me and others when being touched. I have also heard, firsthand, long time SE breeders say they'd never incorporate The Minstril blood in their programs no matter how good the conformation is of any of his offspring. IMO, I would never incorporate The Minstril blood in my program based on what I saw of him in person, his conformation and temperament, which has nothing to do with Hanan or Nasralla. But, just because I made a decision not to want his blood in my program, I do respect other breeder's decisions to have it in their programs.
Middle Eastern Buyers, Prefer non Minstril bloodlines
Oct 15 2006, 02:54 AM
While your long post may sound very convincing, you leave out this one critical element. Instead of looking at those who chose not to use Nasralla, you need to look at those who push it and what their motives are and ask why. This marketing maneuver that you refer to is actually being pushed by those who need to sell Nasralla blood to their clients because it goes through all their top horses... such as in the case of a few certain show barns and a few trainers and one or two power players who are into the 'business' end of breeding and selling SE horses and syndicated shares on these show horses. Lots of money at stake. They have a vested interest in this. Investors cried foul when told their horses didn't qualify for Al Khamsa. On the verge of people threatening to back out of their investments which could have led to bankruptcy on more farms, it was pushed through Al Khamsa. So who is playing who?
