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> Suhail Al Nasser
HLM
post Jun 17 2006, 03:05 AM
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Well Alice, do all judges give proper scores ?? Dr Wigger is ocrrect, because then also the hoofs be tested and you might be amazed how many would flinch for pain, something you might not see when the horse moves.

Bu this of course would go a little too far in the ring, timewise, otherwise, so lets settle for "the eye sees".

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Liz Salmon
post Jun 17 2006, 03:27 AM
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Hansi, after judging many many shows, I realised a very long time ago that there are degrees of faults. Some faults are fairly minor in degree and others major. For instance, I've seen really long cannons and others that are very slightly too long (1/2 inch maybe)—likewise the degree of angles in the shoulder and pasterns. I saw a really bad set of offset cannons this week when evaluating 25 horses, and one set that were very very slightly offset. I score according to the degree of faults. Maybe the hip could be an inch longer and so on.

You know that I'm a great advocate of riding Arabians. Having judged rdden classes in the UK, when I had to ride numerous horses in one day, then look at their conformation, taught me an enormous amount about form to function. I've been teaching about conformation for many years including at University level, when we had a vet. to instruct alongside me as well.
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HLM
post Jun 17 2006, 03:27 AM
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Dear Carol

these photos are very bad examples, there all four legs are not that good.
It looks if the forarms are too short, the joints not clean, tendons not clean, hocks not clean. these photos are unfair to the horse. If these were showing in truth the conformation, I think we better not ride that 25miler, not even a one miler. dont you have some photos where it does not distord?

Now Bart and Michael claimed all four are excellent legs. Surely they have to agree with me that these photos make them questionable.

I missed meeting you at the EE. My loss I guess.

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HLM
post Jun 17 2006, 03:32 AM
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Dearest Liz

Pleae forgive me, in no way did I mean or have marked your creditability. You know that I highyl respect you.

I agree with the explanation you gave. But these are not detrimental faults you mentioned but indeed deserve lesser points.

Thanks for the explanation
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Becca
post Jun 17 2006, 03:35 AM
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*dabbing at scratches on head and neck, applying burn cream to ears*

After an evening and day of fielding emails and phone calls--from very irate people with colorful vocabularies---I feel I need to at least attempt to clarify my involvement with this conversation. I am not the most handy writer in the world and have difficulty making myself clear, so here goes.....

Since the Event there had been what I called "whispers" concerning this horse and his conformation. These rumors/whispers described absolutely horrid things--I could not imagine anyone even thinking of showing with the rumored problems--hence my request to Anne share her observations.

Annes reply concerning offset cannon, slight post legged (her words) was so much more mild compared to the rumors that had been flying about that I was relieved by her response.

I agree that the posts should have been placed elsewhere, in a different thread, and regret not the content of my posts but the placement. For that I apologize. I will stand by the content of my posts with the inner knowledge that I was not motivated by jealousy or sheer meanness. I simply wanted to make sure the horse was described fairly, not as some nightmare.
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CarolHMaginn
post Jun 17 2006, 04:16 AM
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Hansi,

Sorry I missed meeting you.. I'm sure it was my loss actually. I was running around and had to leave early. I also didn't even have a chance to take any photos of Suhal or the other champions since I left before the championships. Marilyn Lang told me she saw you at the party for Tom McNair and I wondered how I could have missed you as I was taking photos and never saw you... Of course - I didn't know what you looked like - so I could have seen you and not known it.


I'm going to respectfully extract myself from the conversation on Suhal and I will not post any more photo related to this topic. I don't want any of my posts to be used to hurt anyone.

Hansi - again I'm so sorry that I did miss you as I really wanted to meet "the legend" behind the posts... Perhaps next year...

Carol


QUOTE (HLM @ Jun 16 2006, 10:27 PM)
Dear Carol

these photos are very bad examples, there all four legs are not that good.
It looks if the forarms are too short, the joints not clean, tendons not clean, hocks not clean. these photos are unfair to the horse. If these were showing in truth the conformation, I think we better not ride that 25miler, not even a one miler. dont you have some photos where it does not distord?

Now Bart and Michael claimed all four are excellent legs. Surely they have to agree with me that these photos make them questionable.

I missed meeting you at the EE. My loss I guess.

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deby
post Jun 17 2006, 05:08 AM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Jun 16 2006, 06:59 PM)
Why do some become champions ?With what I see poor conformation  is overuled by extra points for type AND THAT MUST STOP!!!!
There is where the problem lies, the judging point system.
Stating that the Russian judge knows what he is doing, darn right he does, but did he know of this unfair point system? I know of at least one renowned judge who did not and was in shock when horses won, based on those extra points, such judge would have never placed the horses as it ended up.

And what type are we talking about? Has anybody  ever seen a true desert bred, including photos- with a fishhead (Pikehead)??? I searched and searched some more, and never have seen it. It is breeding for it and sacrificing often other things.

When it comes to legs, and I am a leg person, I want those tendons lying so clean and free as a nountain stream, that I could pick each one out with my fingers, front and behind. I want to see a tremendous hip and gaskin, well located so when the horse moves, his hocks should be vertical, almost hitting his butt, not like lingering behind. I want to see clean ancles, (Joints) befitting the size of the horse. I want to see the cannon bone above the ancle and below the knee fit at least 2,5 times into the forearm, starting from above the knee. I want to see that forarm in a nice V-shape, well muscled and such good muscling all over its body. and I want to see a deep girth and well packed whithers. And I want to see a slight angulation behind. And I want to see large round hoofs infront with a wall wide enough to hold a shoe and the hind hoofs only slightly ovaled. And I want to see "Balance"!

Now if Suhail's legs etc fit into this, well then we have a good conformation horse with super legs- a "20".

However, to lay all thinking, wishing, surmising to rest let us see this beutiful horse in the next year's 25 mile endurance race. It takes 4 months to train him for that, is a cake walk a pony could do,  and whatever he will do will remove all doubts or otherwise.
But will he be allowed, will the owners/trainers dare? What excuses might come up if he does not enter? I assure you if challenged "Amiin" be there, and that could be the horse to beat.

therefore I am challenging you to let all of us watch this beautiful stallion
doing his thing.

And yes, the halter classes are "Breeding classes" and not "Model classes" for which there are other rules.

and to the rest of you all, when you see a horse always ask yourself" Can I ride this horse over and through anything? If the answer is no, then you have an ornament, and most certainly, most definitely not breeding stock.


*

Hansi, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but I must ask, what exactly are you recommending, that all classes that do not have a horse with perfect legs should be cancelled? Weither this horse has bad legs or not (I have no idea) he was the best in his class, thats all there is to it. Do you think since his legs are not perfect that they should have simply dropped the class? I don't, as many have said, there is no such thing as a perfect horse, and he obviously exemplified what the judges wanted most or else he would not have won.

Congrats to him and his owners!
Deby
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CarolHMaginn
post Jun 17 2006, 05:42 AM
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Well I explained to Judy Guess what was said after I posted her photos of Suhal, and that for that reason I removed the photos, and she asked me to please repost them and add her comments as well.

Judi is a well respected breeder who doesn't easily shy away from anyone when she knows she is in the right.

For those of you you don't know Judy Guess (if there is anyone out there who doesn't know her) - I should probably tell you that she is a breeder of many champion arabian horses across the globe...

She bred Farid Nile Dream - 2003 Egyptian Event Champion World Class Fillies of 2001 - who is now owned by DeShazer Arabians. Judy also has bred this year's Champion Senior Mare - of the Sharjah 2006 National Show - Mmecca - who was purchased by Al Zobair Stud, HE Sheikh Abdullah bin Mohammed Al Thani/UAE. Her client list is extremely impressive for someone who is so modest. She has had rulers of countries, as well as many other breeders seeing the ultimate champion arabian horse come to her farm - right here in the town of Harper, TX. Her reputation for breeding top notch champion horses is world recognized, and she only breeds about 2 horses per year. She is extremely well educated and actually is a public school teacher.

Below are Judy's comments - and the re-posted photos she took of Suhal...


Subject: Suhail
Date: June 17, 2006 12:09:15 AM CDT

Absolutely not!!!!! Those photos show overall good conformation and type. There is no way ANYONE could use those photos as a "leg study". You would have to be close to the horse and on the same level as the legs. There is NO WAY to take a picture up in the "stands" that doesn't "distort " the legs to some degree !!! This is an Unbelievable, endless discussion in "trashing" a horse and "trashing" people who state opposing positions! That is one reason why I don't always go to SE to read so called "discusssions".

..............and you can say that I said so!!!! I rode and started my own horses for years before one flipped over with me...but I believe in looking at the conformation as a "whole" and if doesn't have Arabian "type", I don't want it in my breeding barn. I want my horses to exemplify what the breed is supposed to be. If I were in another breed, I would be breeding for "that" type plus good overall conformation.

Judy
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CarolHMaginn
post Jun 17 2006, 05:57 AM
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Hansi,

Would you mind posting photos of the champion horses you have bred that possess both exotic type and conformation (leg, body, etc...) which you are emphasizing the importance of?

This would be very educational to all of us to see what you breed and consider the "ideal arabian". And really I think sometime a picture can be worth 1000 words.

Thanks so much,

Carol
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Arabs4ever
post Jun 17 2006, 06:35 AM
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I think Judi is being kind and also politically correct, I am an absolutely no body and have no political connections I own one SE mare and I would hate it if my horse was up for criticism, as I know it would fail miserably, but lets face it, I think Anne has been correct in her observations, I bought the photo onto my photoshop program and enlarged the legs, he looks tied in below the knee to me and he does look offset as well I am sorry, I know photos can tell lies, so perhaps if someone could post better photos of the legs would be a good idea.

He also looks short and round in the croup but has a great shoulder and neck and a beautiful face, his hind quarter looks like it drops away sort of lacking muscle on either side of the croup heading back to the dock bone, I wouldn't say he had excellent conformation but her does appear to have some very good points as well

I think other people are right when they say you have to look at the whole picture and weigh the good up against the bad

Gail
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Maria
post Jun 17 2006, 08:29 AM
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I am apalled and horrified that this is still going on.
That now his muscle mass, croup, hind quarters ect, is under the microscope. PLEASE everyone, GROW UP!!
He won his class at the EE not the world championships!
Roumours have now started with him having horrifying defects, I am getting E-Mails and calls from people to confirm these horrible faults, this is redicolous!!
Why was he not attacked like this last year when he won at the event, or the year before??
I mean, if he is such a walking disaster it should have been picked up a long time ago.
Anne, I hope you are happy with the result of your visious attack on this horse, and that you reached your goal, whatever that may have been.
I hope you sleep well at night.

Yours
Maria
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Liz Salmon
post Jun 17 2006, 11:33 AM
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Here is a photo that I took of him at ground level and I walked all the way around him. IMO he has a lovely topline, good slope of shoulder, short back, level croup and long hip. I like his depth of heart girth, his clean throat latch and shape and set of his neck. He has long well muscled gaskins and large correctly angled and well let down hocks. He has long well muscled forearms and short cannons—maybe could be 1/2 inch shorter. His pasterns are correctly angled.

I did not see offset cannons, but he is slightly tied in below the knees—a fault I frequently see all over the world.His front feet are not quite a matched pair—another common fairly minor fault. His tail is very well set and carried and he moves well, also having a good overstride at the walk. His head is well proportioned and typey, eyes large and small well set ears.

I see no reason to denigrate this lovely stallion, I could see myself riding him with a lot in front of the saddle.
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HLM
post Jun 17 2006, 11:51 AM
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Dear Carol

thank you, ou are very sweet. Yes I regret it too, so may be next time or sooner -may be at some sporshorse events? I was so disappointed when the EASHA was cancelled and had to go to canada Saturday nnoon- it is an over 6 hour trip.

I know you meant so well with those photos, and I so often said, photos can be so destorting, to the good or bad. that's why we dont send any out and recommend to see hroses in the flesh.

If you are in Florida, please come and be our guest.

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HLM
post Jun 17 2006, 12:01 PM
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Dear Debby

Now, you read my posts again and then read your own reply. We must not go to the extreme, who ever said to cancel classes because horses have bad legs etc?
Sometimes this kind of misunderstanding can create harm. I realize, written things dont have a tone nor facial expression, which often leads to misunderstandings.I always try to fin the good in things, and when not sure,aqsked for an explanation.

Your statement he was the best in his class can also be misunderstood.
did you mean because he became champion by an unorxedoxed judging/point system, or because in fact he was? I did not see the class, so cant judge either.

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HLM
post Jun 17 2006, 12:22 PM
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Dear Carol

In all due respect I disagree a bit with that classic type, as arabians are supposed to be. you will not find one Desertbred horse - true-blue desert bred- even closely resembling what is called classic type of today. You wont find Shepherd dogs in the past sitting on rabbit legs either.
(Please dont translate rabbit legs now with horses, I beg of you)

the classic type would actually be the "true Desert Bred" and what I see is far removed from it. The Model "T-" car produced by Ford is a "Classic".
Again far removed from our nowaday cars.

May be I misunderstand the terminology? there are so many types, but in my opinion it is the "silhouette" which recognizes the breed, not the head.

I got to get someone to come and help me post photos, so that you and others again can see "our type" which we think are very type, beautiful but also quite correct and bred for both, beauty and functioability. The latter is a must for me during these 40 years, being a rider and a connosoir. those people who come here and bought horses all are experienced horsemen/woman and appear to agree.
But all this is neither here nor there, and we certainly cant continue a fad when various other types like the Babson, Doyles, Pritzlafs, Plumgroves,
Gleannloch etc etc are suddenly outcasted. But then by whom, eh?

It is obvious that we all have our likes and dislikes, which is great, otherwise we all would have the same horse in the barn, which would be terrible. But what we must start a bit more disliking is a pretty horse with poor conformation and in particular legs, because no leg, no horse, no tires no car. It's just a simple as that, unless someone likes and wants a garden ornament.

Have a real nice day
Hansi
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