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> Suhail Al Nasser
Delyth
post Jun 16 2006, 06:36 PM
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I'm glad this topic has been moved and given a slot of its own.

You know when you breed horses you forgive certain traits. The perfect horse just doesn't exist - OK some people want correct and put huge emphasis on legs and sound structure - great, get a Warmblood or a Thoroughbred. Or adapt your Arabians to look like them. But for many the epitome of an Arabian is a far cry from this. We are entitled to our opinions also so why do these people more than any impose their views on us with such hostility.

I don't think 'Anne's' comments warrant such a fuss because she couldn't say what the faults were. Had no one risen then wouldn't she have sounded clever ?

He looks a stunning horse and what an exciting prospect for breeders - embrace him with enthusiasm and stop the petty negativity fuelled by envy !!
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heidip
post Jun 16 2006, 06:47 PM
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Dr Daniel Wigger
post Jun 16 2006, 07:19 PM
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I really am wondering about the many, many people who dare to judge about the anatomy and biomechanics of horse's legs without any profound knowledge behind. Actually judging of horse legs without a knowledgable horse vet assisting is like to set the fox to keep the geese ... ph34r.gif
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Sumerlan
post Jun 16 2006, 08:05 PM
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Hansi:

For purposes of learning, when was the last time you saw a score of 20 for legs? In years past, I believe the highest score I've seen has been 17 or 17.5 at the most.

Sumerlan
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Guest_Alice_*
post Jun 16 2006, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE (Dr Daniel Wigger @ Jun 16 2006, 08:19 PM)
Actually judging of horse legs without a knowledgable horse vet assisting is like to set the fox to keep the geese ...  ph34r.gif
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With all due respect this is just your own opinion. In consequence this mean no judge at a show can give proper leg marks withou a horse vet at his/her side? Strange thoughts.
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Abbasiyah
post Jun 16 2006, 09:59 PM
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What was that song... Where fools fear to tread, or was it where fools rush in where wise me fear to tread?
In any case, I wanted to post that I think that we should be breeding for type as well as for conformation and Anne did state that she thought this horse had off-set cannons and was tied in behind the knees. How many actually know what that is?

Just for the sake of education or to help further education (or not laugh.gif ) I have cut out of some of my older photos some leg shots from the side and one from the front. Sorry, I won't actually identify the owners of the legs for fear of being received like Anne but maybe, just maybe we can see what an off-set cannon is and what a tied in behind the knee is. Early in the posting MB stated that he would put pictures of this horse's legs up on the forum and that would be the best thing to silence the critics (or not laugh.gif ).

Of the photos here, cropped from photos in my collection (and shall remain nameless for safety sake ph34r.gif ph34r.gif ), only one is tied in behind the knee. Can you identify which one?

As for the off-set cannons, I only had one example and unfortunately most of my photos are from the side so I didn't have a good example photo of a nice straight cannon. Does anyone else have an example photo of a nice straight cannon, if so please post it up here so that we can look at it.

Please, if anyone recognizes the legs ( and I hope not) do not identify the horse so that we can stay on track and not get personal.

Judi

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Abbasiyah
post Jun 16 2006, 10:04 PM
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laugh.gif That should have been where wise men fear to tread and not wise me!! But then again I was fearful for myself so maybe it was one of those Freudian slips!

Judi
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heidip
post Jun 16 2006, 10:07 PM
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# 3
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Abbasiyah
post Jun 16 2006, 10:07 PM
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OK some people want correct and put huge emphasis on legs and sound structure - great, get a Warmblood or a Thoroughbred. Or adapt your Arabians to look like them. But for many the epitome of an Arabian is a far cry from this

Delyth... I sincerely hope that we don't have to give up breeding Arabians and go to warmbloods or thoroughbreds just to get good legs unsure.gif

Judi
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Arabs4ever
post Jun 16 2006, 10:52 PM
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There is a simple way to solve this debate, just post some pics of the stallions legs and then we can all judge for ourselves.

Mr Byatt says he has good legs and Anne says he has offset canons and tied in below the knee, for all those who has said that Anne did not define her problem with this stallions legs, I read very early on and in several posts where she clearly states what she saw or thought she saw.

I agree with a lot of what you have said Anne your only mistake was to name the horse, this should not have been done, as it does put a bad impression on what you are tying to say, but then had you not mentioned a horses name you probably would not have had much discussion.

So Mr Byatt I know it is unfair that you have tol prove Anne wrong, but perhaps you should take this opportunity to correct what she is said if indeed she is incorrect.

Gail
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phanilah
post Jun 16 2006, 11:00 PM
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QUOTE
OK some people want correct and put huge emphasis on legs and sound structure - great, get a Warmblood or a Thoroughbred. Or adapt your Arabians to look like them. But for many the epitome of an Arabian is a far cry from this


I'm really hoping that just didn't come out quite right - otherwise IMHO the idea that Arabians aren't supposed to be strong in structure is pertty scary.

Beth
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phanilah
post Jun 16 2006, 11:02 PM
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QUOTE (Abbasiyah @ Jun 16 2006, 11:04 PM)
laugh.gif  That should have been where wise men fear to tread and not wise me!!  But then again I was fearful for myself so maybe it was one of those Freudian slips!

Judi
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LOL - well, there's also "fools rush in where angels fear to tread". wink.gif

Beth
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post Jun 17 2006, 02:01 AM
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QUESTION:
Who is "Anne"???? ph34r.gif

Another Quacker please
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HLM
post Jun 17 2006, 03:02 AM
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Dear Sumerland

O but such legs exist and that in many breeds. You either have correct legs or you dont. one simply has to learn- by comparrison which is which.
I have seen legs on arabian endurance horses I could easily give a "20".
I feel, if the leg structure is sound including the important hoofs, than a "20" is deserving. If a ahorse has detrimental faults, meaning you could not possible ask it to be ridden all over the place, than it deserves a "o".
What good is it if the front is so bad that the tendons will blow, or the kind putting pressure on the knees and shoulder and with it the horse goes lame.
What good is it if the hocks are so flimpsy with little gaskin to support it,and the cannon bone put in wrong, easily creating those painful wind puffs or bogs, that also deserves a "O" because such horse also will break down when being worked. One simply cant get a little bit pregnant, either you are or you are not! I know Liz does not like me to judge so "rudely/hurtingly" but gee weez how else can I discribe what can become a highly frustrating lamness- sometimes for ever. When you put a saddle and man on top of the horse, some weighing over 200 lbs, you better have a sound legged horse with proper conformation of the legs , as otherwise such rider be walking home after one mile. surely we are supposed to breed horses one can ride and not just look at, or?

Its like having a cup or plate with a crack, but still not broken. Give it half a chance and it will.

this goes for the rest of conformation. What would a difference be between 19 and 20 for a shoulder, rearend etc? Its either there or it is not. Would that "1" point difference mean hairs are missing? I truly can not see this point system in this fashion at all. And then comes this "type" business.
I have seen many georgeous type horses at the event, yet would not give a dime for them because their overal conformation was poor including legs. It would take God's best designed mare or stallion to correct this, and would take 4 generations to do it too, may be never.

If one wants a horse for stress work, dressage, hunting, jumping, racing etc than we better have a good conformation all over, otherwise we never get to win anything.

Now if we were to judge mutton whithers,shallow girth, weak hocks, offset cannons, pony hoofs in size, what does one do with such a horse?? Look at it?

Now, I have seen hoofs which make me shudder. On yearlings the size of weanlings, on two year olds the size of ten months olds, and many in oval shape infront, absolutely impossible to carry the horse on such through heavy terrain. But then a rider of consequence would know this. Some ancles like ball bearings, some you hardly notice, each one will or can create lamness.

We all can talk until we are blue in the face, the clue comes when you sit on top and ride hard. Just wonder how those cowboys of the past did it, riding fences, cattle (no I dont mean factually riding a fence or a cow) I mean checking fence lines and or herding cattle etc. If they would use unsound conformation structure, they be riding 5 minutes and rest in the sun all day and be fired.

But how can one be educated in all this? By comparrison ONLY, BY TESTING.
But even the soundest conformation horse can be a fluke, having no stamina,
courage, recovery rae, or quit half way down the road.

this is why "breeding classes" were established for the show ring and entries critically correct judged. Sentiments, who is who, love or hate simply dont belong there. When a good trainer can take a mule into an arab class and makes it look like an arab with all the cosmetics involved, all reasoning stops. Now please, I am not referring here to any horse shown, just a matter of speaking it is.

I often wondered what some trainers would do if they had to take a horse under their seat to save their life having to ride fast and long distance. would they take one of those halter champions they created or go down the road to a small breeder renting theirs? Good question, eh?

By giving generous points it is not helping at all, it gives false impressions.
By perluting true scores with multiple extra points for type it has created exactly what we are facing today. Those of you who were at the show will have seen many georgeous heads. Which one now is typier, how does one make a selection? Not only this, we now for some time actually perpetuate it all by having a "Most classic head class" the rest of the horses under a blanket. What nonsence is this please? Which one would you, I or others chose?
Most all would get either a first place ribbon or none at all, selection by personal taste, like Marilyn Monroe versa Jane Russel.

Anyway, may be I am getting too old to understand this system which has in my opinion no rythm or rhyme because of the point system. I truly feel sorry for the judges and more so for many an illconformed, created horse.

My opinion again
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
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CarolHMaginn
post Jun 17 2006, 03:03 AM
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I've deleted the photos that my friend asked me to post because I don't want any of my posts to be used to hurt anyone.. That is not my intention when I posted them.

This post has been edited by CarolHMaginn: Jun 17 2006, 04:18 AM
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