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> Do You Need A New Perspective?, A day in Kansas with Tom Hesion
Malouf Arabian S...
post Nov 23 2006, 06:58 AM
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I have been accused of being horse crazy many times in my life. I am Jessica Malouf and I whole heartedly agree, I eat, breathe, sleep horses (Egyptian Arabians to be exact) and so does Tom Heshion of Hallmark Arabian Stud.

I met Tom in 1997 at a meeting in Northern Calif, where Tom presented a far out concept, hold on to your mouse now! Tom proposed that Egyptian Breeders stand together and coop resources for the greater good of the Egyptian Arabian. This coop would cull colts and geld them, and then stand behind quality stallions. All horses would be presented with quality photographs, video, and an evaluation. Just think how easy it would be for Buyers, No sifting, no waisted time, fuel, and dollars. All would benefit, Mare owners with foals being sold, Stallion owners who could now put oats on the table because breedings were being booked.

I called Tom a month ago, we talked for hours, my ear was numb, my voice was hoarse, and I had a new outlook toward my four legged compadres.

Almost 10 years after our first meeting Tom is still standing by his ideal. So in light of Tom's perspective, can we make Tom's ideal work? Is there a group of people out there that can inspire one another harmoniously? As president of The Egyptian Arabian Horse Association formely Northern California Egyptian Breeders (which by the way is still around, but is in serious need of rejuvination) I would love to see a great group of people come together and breathe new life into the association. Would it be possible to use Tom's outline to mold an Egyptian Arabian utopia out of EAHA? A place where Buyers and Sellers meet with honesty, sincerity, and integrity. I think this could fly? What do you think? I believe that the ultimate benefit in the end would be for the Egyptian Arabian, more foals would be produced from precious bloodlines that are at risk of becoming part of the past, too many mare lines have been lost already.

If you need a new perspective, call Tom. By the way Hallmark Arabian Stud has a stunning group of Egyptian Arabians, My visit was short and sweet, my head was spinning the whole flight home with breeding and marketing concepts, and pedigrees. I was able to see the horses on paper, watch them on video and touch them in the flesh and I was impressed.

Jessica Malouf
Malouf Arabian Stud
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Liz Salmon
post Nov 23 2006, 01:08 PM
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I think that's it's a great idea. Some of the Georgia SE breeders are trying to do something similar. I evaluated Tom's herd last year, he does have some lovely horses.
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HLM
post Nov 23 2006, 02:48 PM
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Yes, Jessica, this is a very good idia and would benefit the Ses greatly.

Hansi biggrin.gif
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Malouf Arabian S...
post Nov 23 2006, 03:35 PM
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Thank you Liz and Hansi!

Liz,
Can you give some insight or guidelines that miight be followed for the evaluations. Should the evaluations be contracted by the assoc. with one appraiseer, or multiple appraisers? Should the association develope their own format for the appraiser(s) to use? Please let us know your thoughts on this, and anything else you can contribute would be greatly appreciated?

Jessica Malouf
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Liz Salmon
post Nov 23 2006, 04:12 PM
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Here are my thoughts on this. First of all, I haven't had very good experiences with the appraisers I've come across in court that are Certified Equine Appraisers. They often are very general and in both cases I experienced, they had not researched the pedigrees or show winnings of the horses concerned. I'm sure there are good ones, but these two were very ignorant on Arabians and Warmbloods, which the cases were about.

Secondly, when I go to do evaluations, I want to see the pedigrees. I do my written details on a specially designed form with the horse in a very relaxed position—I do not want to see the show pose. Then I want to see them walk towards and away from me. They are then turned loose for me to see movement and presence. I make an overall comment at the bottom of the form as to the horses ability and what I perceive is his future in the show ring Halter/Performance or if I feel that it's going to be a good pleasure trail or endurance horse. I also comment on temperament. I posted my format on another thread.

This last paragraph is always designed for use in ads for marketing or can be used for stallions at stud. I probably do anywhere from 150 to 200 per year, and I keep records of them all. The owners will get a typed form on my letter heading and dated. With young horses up to 5 years when commenting on toplines or croups I always add 'At the moment' because of the way young horses can go up behind and then level off. It seems that an independant evaluation can help in marketing and the IRS like breeders using a consultant, as they say it shows the breeder is serious—that's what one told me
anyway !!
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Malouf Arabian S...
post Nov 23 2006, 04:46 PM
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Wow, thank you Liz!

What I understand from your post, is that we would have a better advantage to use a consultant over an appraiser. I can definately see the advantage to having herd evaluations, in fact I would like to have my current herd re-evaluated, I feel it is very important to stay connected with your goals, and hiring a consultant would really help to stay the course, and the point you gave concerning the IRS is a bonus.

Jessica Malouf
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Liz Salmon
post Nov 23 2006, 05:05 PM
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Sometimes when you look at your horses everyday, it's very easy to miss a slight trend that has appeared. Twice in the last year I have walked round Simeon Stud with Marion, which was great as we discussed each horse and the future. An independant eye can be very objective and helpful. I had great mentors, who taught me about evaluating foals—what can change and what doesn't.

In 1980 I judged 125 foals at the British Nationals aged from 2 to 6 months. I've never forgotten that—it was tough. My Champion foal was a filly and is the dam of the imported stallion Rushan—now at stud in California. He was Supreme Overall Champion at the British Nationals in 1997 as a yearling and looked a lot like his mother as a foal.
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Echo1
post Nov 23 2006, 05:26 PM
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I think this is a good idea. I would like to see stallions tested and some standards or better criteria used on stallions in particular. I don't mean just tested under saddle, but I mean the pedigree and the conformation and the horses must certainly have type and be of excellent quality and not just have a good pedigree, but be an excellent representative of that pedigree.
In regards to pedigrees as was mentioned a young potential stallion, in my opinion to be considered he should reflect the quality of the sire or gransdsires and be every bit as good if not better than them to be a potential stallion. Then he must be proven to produce as well.. There should be a natural progression and improvement being seen with each passing generation as opposed to horses which are becoming paler versions of the great horses that were in the pedigree. If not an improvement in a stallions sons and daughters at the minimum horses who are at least equal to the quality of their parents and grandparents.
Same with mares, but in general I think it would be a wise idea to start keeping track of, and catagorizing mares of each family and keep records on them and their production to avoid losing lines. The mares themselves should be representative to their family and also carry the look and quality the family is noted for. I think, and again, it's just my opinion, but we need to strive for excellence in quality, type, and solid breeding horses who are truly of top standards and begin to identify premium breeding stallions and mares.
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Malouf Arabian S...
post Nov 23 2006, 05:50 PM
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Echo1,
I have some questions about your post. I appreciate the theory behind what you have written, so with that in mind, how can we implement these strategies? I want to walk the walk on this thing, I truly believe we could create a tight knit Egyptian Arabian FAMILY. What is more important? A foal representing most strongly the female family or the sires. Can a foal represent both at the same time with different strains being used in a pedireee? Or would you need to use pure in strain to accomplish this? Could we use something like a Keuring? We could set up evaluation clinics by request of individual breeders in their region. Would this become more complicated than it really needs to be? What about having photo and video clinics in requested regions, where a farm can host the services and breeders can then bring their horses? Could we combine the photo and video clinic with the evaluations? As you can see there are a lot of possibilities, my motto is often "You are only limited by your imagination!"

Jessica Malouf
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Hallmarkstud
post Nov 23 2006, 06:50 PM
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First, HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
Second, I don't have much time, if I'm late for turkey, My Aunt Suzie will cook me next!

Jessica, I'm glad you enjoyed your visit. Before I leave for the day, I'd like to clarify a couple of things. This is what I believe.....

There are far too many stallions. Owners don't want to geld, they've got to get a grip. Geldings are better horses for common ownership and are usually happier. Frozen semen is a great alternative and far less expensive.

Many times, large operations work because their stallions have a wide variety of mares to promote them.....So go with the flow..........but use only the greatest stallions. Further.......Marketing is cheaper by the dozen and doesn't need to be controlled by the large farm. It should be controlled by the buyers.

As a buyer, I always felt pushed by the breeders to agree with their theories. i would have felt much better in one central office where all the horses were viewable via video and pedigree and grouped by independent score and price. Then I wouldn't have to offend anybody by saying ...No thank you. I would have saved all kinds of time for me and the sellers.

So.....what's wrong with a central sales office that endorses great stallions, where everyone sends their videos and pays a small fee matched by the stallion owner? ........People could come from all over the world and save lots of time and money. The POOL would continually advertise the sales center.

Even with the internet, as great as it is.........it can be better. I have to sift through all the ads........get ahold of the people.......have them send a dvd.......on and on.

Forget what the sellers want..........A buyer wants lots of info........non biased.......substanciated...........And they want to know that they too will have a fair opportunity to market their foals without having to trust someone else to do it for them.

I have to go for now, but this is a very important topic. I wasn't ready for it to start..........I'll check in,

Tom Heshion
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Echo1
post Nov 23 2006, 06:51 PM
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Jessica,

I think a Keuring is very much similar in what some here are suggesting but that would only be in regards to conformation and athletic ability etc. What else I think should be considered is a pedigree Keuring, for lack of a better term, in that the horse meets the pedigree as well. In other words, the horse must not simply have 'a' pedigree but be an excellent representation of it as well. Where the potential meets excellence. If one is claiming to have a stallion who is a great son of Morafic for example, then don't you think this colt should look like and posess the best qualities of Morafic? If one claims to have a filly who is a Bint Bukra family, should she not be an excellent represention of it as well?
So I'm thinking maybe beyond what is done in a looking at a horse in a breeding class and being evaluated on conformation and movement, but if the horse is supposed a great breeding horse, should his genetics be examined as well and shouldn't he or she be an excellent representative of it as well?
Then even beyond conformation and pedigree, we should seek horses who are of excellence in type and quality.
Other things to consider are then grading all these horses for health and breeding soundness, temperment and disposition.

This reminds me of conversations that I had years ago with other breeders outside of the US about the idea of having an USA /EAO type program and although the horses may not be housed in the same facility it would be a USA Straight Egyptian Bloodstock program of the "most exceptional breeding horses". Similar to how Gen Von Szandtner had catagorized families of mares and selected only the very best representatives. He then selected the best stallions like Nazeer, Shiekh El Arab, Sid Abohoum, El Sareei.
I think we are able to easily identify the best show horses or best performance horses but I am hoping for something more than that.
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Echo1
post Nov 23 2006, 06:54 PM
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Tom,

We must have been posting at the same time. Happy Thanksgiving.

I see better now what you are suggesting. So my question is if this is just for the purpose of selling horses? I'm wondering though if more would be inclined to see this go beyond that, or rather that having some of the foals for sale would be a by product of this established group of premium breeding horses. Possibly it would be a good idea to first establish a USA SE Bloodstock of horses which were put forth based on criteria which is supported or criteria guidlelines of the world's top breeders and experts on horsebreeding.
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post Nov 23 2006, 07:37 PM
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These are great ideas but are you not putting the cart before the horse?

First off the breed needs to correctly establish a breed standard. Sorry the Gladys Brown Edwards one just does not do enough in my opinion. Also, after the standard has been put in place and agreed upon by all and sundry then we have to train judges to know how to evaluate horses based upon the agreed upon standard for the breed. This is no reflection on anyone who thinks they are qualified to evaluate but I would want to have trained judges and not just one person or two people who are acceptable to some of the people here on this forum doing evaluations. Maybe I have a different opinion on things than say Liz does (just use this name for an example only). Maybe a lot of people do not like the same horses Liz likes or for that matter Hansi (again just use this name as an example). I also think evaluations should come from trained judges that do not make a living out of doing this or are not breeding SE horses and have their own farms and/or agenda's.

Just a few thoughts rolleyes.gif
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Guest_Guest_carol_*_*
post Nov 23 2006, 07:50 PM
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Would this just be another beauty contest ? Some ugly mares throw beauty . Witness the ancestors..Some beautys throw not so beautiful..

If you go form And function . How are you going to evaluate the legs, which I find the SE community has to get a grip on.

How would you evaluate for instance a SE with a dippy back ,
Towed out and under the knee..In other words crooked front legs at any angle.
Would you write him off even if he bred world champions

Would the stud fees rise higher than they are now , for the lead and feed ornaments that have done nothing else

Will this become another click [spel]

If you want people to breed better SEs , make the better stallions available to the unwashed masses.

If you want to See what a stallion can produce , let him at All comers
Not just the Cherry -picked ones.
One astute breeder said a Great one comes along every 50 yrs.
Maybe that Great one will have a non-descript sire or dam

But whose to know if they did,nt pass a test
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Mr Prospector
post Nov 23 2006, 11:07 PM
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This would certainly work to improve the quality of the breed.

Suppose you had a non egyptian mare you wanted to breed, then what?

What if you had a non Arabian mare?

How would you use this for international promotion - would AI be available through this central hub?

You could have teachers available and mentors for first time owners and make a mini industry out of this.

You are right, you are only limited by your imagination

good luck - it is a good idea. Will be extremely hard to sell, but hey I reckon

JUST DO IT

Karen
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