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> Mashaan (machaan,michan) C.1920, in regard to El Deree- SOFI
HLM
post May 21 2007, 06:56 PM
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Please Cathy dont make me angry. why should I go to syria to undo rumors? Have you spread them there???? I certainly did not.

I made myself quite clear that I have heard the complaints from numerous people in Germany for many years and also here that El Deree was supposed to be no good, was bought from a dea er Damascus or Aleppo and even had such discussions with the Seidlitz Family years ago. That led to "Sameh" and also he got quite a few discussions and complaints. Just because you have not heard it, does not mean that I should not have either. you have no idea the many e-mails calls I get about many a subject.

And please dont be so arrogant telling me to find the book or buy another one.
that is very rude young lady. If you see my office and books placed on top of each other every which way because I am running out of space, you might understand.
Futhermore I might be able to see better after my operation in June. Right now everything is a blurr. But this you might not understand either. I have trouble reading. It is also very hard for me to type and I hope you forgive my typos.

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Carol Cooper-Hal...
post May 21 2007, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ May 21 2007, 02:56 PM)
Futhermore I might be able to see better after my operation in June. Right now everything is a blurr. But this you might not understand either. I have trouble reading. It is also very hard for me to type and I hope you forgive my typos.

Hansi biggrin.gif
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Oh, I totally understand Hansi. Many elderly individuals have these eye problems. Perhaps you should rest your eyes for a while until after your surgery; the added strain I'm sure is not helping your condition. cool.gif
Cheers,
Carol
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HLM
post May 21 2007, 07:27 PM
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CArol dear, at my age every minute is a gift and must not be waisted. I wearing these dark sunglasses and it helps.Had to wear them all throught Syria even at night,ha. there is so much I must still do and was taught to never waist the Lord's day or burn sunlight..you be amazed what one can do if one has the will.

(by the way my "Ha" means I am smiling. ha.

anyway thanks for your kind advice, I know you mean it well.

Hansi biggrin.gif
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Tous crins
post May 21 2007, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ May 21 2007, 10:56 AM)
I made myself quite clear that I have heard the complaints from numerous people in Germany for many years and also here that El Deree was supposed to be no good, was bought from a dea er Damascus or Aleppo and even had such discussions with the Seidlitz Family years ago. That led to "Sameh" and also he got quite a few discussions and complaints. Just because you have not heard it, does not mean that I should not have either. you have no idea the many e-mails calls I get about many a subject.


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I find this odd, why Sameh and not Morafic? if it was caused by El Deree...
Never heard that. I love Sameh.
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Nadj al Nur
post May 21 2007, 07:32 PM
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Hansi, I have no wish to make you, or anyone else angry, and fail to see why honest questions would do so.
YOU SAID, and I am quoting directly from YOUR post. "It was stated in the Hanan book, that El Deree was BOUGHT from SOME HORSE DEALER. To correct this statement I continued to research. Of course this statement was not well recieved in Syria and actually became an insult."
There are your EXACT words.
Mt question, once again, is, how could this statement, which in actual fact, does not exist, have been an insult to anyone. The statement was NEVER MADE, except right here on this forum.
You know very well that I have not been to Syria, but YOU have, so perhaps you could explain how the Syrian people were insulted by something that never happened.
That is the rumor I was referring to, and I know you hate rumors as much as I do.
Do you truly believe I am arrogant for wanting to understand how this could possibly have happened? If so, then I guess I am in good company and I do not believe that Dr. Nagel would be very pleased at all to have his words changed and then posted as fact.His relationship with people in the ME is exemplary and I am VERY sure that none of them would believe that he really said this. If you can find the source of this rumor then I am sure he and many others, including myself, would be most grateful.
Cathy
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Carol Cooper-Hal...
post May 21 2007, 07:33 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ May 21 2007, 03:27 PM)
CArol dear, at my age every minute is a gift and must not be waisted. I wearing these dark sunglasses and it helps.Had to wear them all throught Syria even at night,ha. there is so much I must still do and was taught to never waist the Lord's day or burn sunlight..you be amazed what one can do if one has the will.

(by the way my "Ha" means I am smiling. ha.

anyway thanks for your kind advice, I know you mean it well.

Hansi biggrin.gif
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Both my parents have had to have eye surgery so I understand! wink.gif
Cheers,
Carol
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HLM
post May 21 2007, 07:37 PM
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OKay Cathy, here I explain it.

I mentioned it only to one of my friend who was able to get the grandson of the breeder, NOT ALL SYRIA. But believe it or not, some people in the room knew about the rumor, Europeans. I mentioned it in order to get verifycation of the horse.

Does this now make sense to you please?
so let it rest, and rather of on the trail to new discoveries. Got to get more horses off my back burner, ha.

Hansi biggrin.gif
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Nadj al Nur
post May 21 2007, 07:43 PM
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THANK YOU HANSI !!!!
Now I understand perfectly and I am grateful for your candor on this.
Cathy
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 21 2007, 08:36 PM
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Quote Tracy:
"This being during the same time frame...I fully understand that the dates are approximates, but the foaling records tend to follow a specific pattern which shows El Deree at the stud probably a year before Mashaan.. I really don't see how you can guide anyone past that snag..."

Tracy, it is not correct that El Dere was a the RAS before Mashaan. If you or anyone else has some information that shows that Dr. Branch was at the RAS was El Dere was gifted, I would be be very interested to look at it. But nothing, in all of the books or records that I have reviewed over almost twenty years has even suggested such a link. On the other hand, and at the risk of being seriously redundant, according to the personal testimony of Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, as reported in Judith Forbis in her published interview, Mashaan was leased by the RAS when Dr. Branch was managing the stud. Anyone is welcomed to either accept or reject that information as provided by Judith Forbis...SOFI accepts it.

With regard to the breeding records you mentioned; what records exactly are you speaking of? There is no information that I know of which provides the dates for when Mashaan was first used at stud. It is certainly not contained in the RAS History. It would not be a sound research process to assume an acquisition date of a stallion or even for when breeding began with a stallion, strictly from foaling dates of first recorded get. For one thing, this would not take into consideration any breeding that could have taken place for which a recorded foal was not produced. Many mares slip or abort foals, foals die after birth and are not recorded, etc., etc., etc. The RAS had a number of stallions in their possession. In fact, in 1948 the figures were 47 Stallions (including those who were annual sent to various breeding stations) and 35 mares. I don't know if you have stallions or not, but I had 10 at one time. We made decisions on what stallions we would use during certain seasons based on a variety of reasons. If you were to conclude a date for when we acquired, or even first started using some of the stallions we owned based upon recorded foal dates of get, you would not have drawn an inaccurate conclusion. I don't know the exact circumstances of Mashaan, no one here does, we weren't there and the records are sketchy at best. But the only solid evidence we do have is Judith Forbis' written word that states that he was leased by the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch.

As you can see from the past arguments against the inclusion of Mashaan by SOFI, the first line of fire was that it was "proven" and recorded in the RAS History that he went there after 1935, after Dr. Branch retired. That was a false statement proven by the actual quote from the RAS History book. Either Kelly and Hansi don't have the book or didn't check it, I don't know which. Apparently both were also either unaware of the information provided by Judith Forbis, or they simply don't accept it as credible. However, now that the quote from her interview has been given, the argument has shifted to discrediting the importance of Dr. Branch. A very foolish approach for many reasons, and so very easy to disprove.

I'm sorry that I can't satisfy you with a short, simple answer without including background history. The fact is, that to understand the philosophy behind the creation of SOFI and the criteria used for root stock selection, one needs to understand the nature of the links between the 7 Foundation breeders and the era they defined. This is not something that can be summed up in a few short sentences, but can be discovered through reading many important books by many very credible authors, spanning many years. I've mentioned that the people responsible for initially selecting and approving the root stock for SOF were highly studied and far more knowledgeable than myself on this subject. They understood the overview of historic factors involved, and believed that there was a very sound reason for subgrouping these horses in order to preserve and concentrate their blood within a closed genepool.

I do feel badly that I am not able to be more helpful to you, but I hope that you will keep your mind open to additional information as you may come across it. As time passes, you may find that many little bits of information begin to come together and finally create a complete and satisfying picture. On the other hand, that may never happen and I strongly believe that no one should support or participate in any type of breeding program which doesn't make sense to them. Whatever choices we make, we have to believe in what we are doing to make it work.
Regards,
Caryn
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Inchallah Arabia...
post May 21 2007, 08:38 PM
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Dear Kelly,

Thank you very much! It is very nice. I am very lucky to live in France and have friends who were able to read the El Deree document for me already. But you are welcome anyway.
Actually, I was refering to several subjects Hansi pointed up to me regarding the horses Adhem, Exochorda (and her sire and dam) and Mashaan. I have been very lucky to visit my dear friend Caryn during my last trip to the U.S. and she kindly allowed me to look at her researches. She truely is a wealth of knowledge on many subjects. She has collected documents regarding some of the horses above and I am very grateful to her that she did share them with me and others.

Regards,

Amelie
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MAXHOPEMIME
post May 21 2007, 08:44 PM
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All of my horses trace back to El Dere, Exochorda, two toAdhem and TM/TD amd one withi a line to Nasrulla. I sure am glad I am not a paper pedigree elitist. I have horses with type, more importantly sound conformation and disposition
My horses are ASIL From the desert and when that big California earthquake comes I have no doubt in my mind that I will be able to load up my belongings and ride across country to Hansi's to camp out in her yard if I wanted to.
HA! (like Hansi' says I'm Smiling)

Now if I could just get my Asadd daughter to teach me to type and spell....

Have a Grand Day Everyone!
Chris
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Gari
post May 21 2007, 08:45 PM
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Amelie,

AMEN!

Am emailing you privately...

Gari
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2mntn
post May 21 2007, 09:32 PM
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Hi Cathy,

"Ray
Doesn't MATTER A WHIT whether the word was merchant, trader, or dealer. What matters, is that the horse was merely DELIVERED by said person, not purchased . Hansi has in fact, provided the NAME of that person, who did become a merchant, as she states.
Cathy

Oh yes it does matter, very much so. The NAME of that person only recently became known in the hujay Hansi brought back from Syria. Prior to that, all that was known was "Egyptian merchant". I suspect you are aware that in class system societies, the status of merchants (and horse traders in particular) is often lower than whale poop? Therefore, just the association with a merchant (name previously unknown) would cast doubt upon the quality of the horse - El Deree, in this case. Now that this person has been named, his background, relationships, etc. are known, it is clear that he was not the "horse trader" variety of merchant.

Ray
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HLM
post May 21 2007, 10:12 PM
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Dear Tracey

these are my records:

El Deree was with Inshass Stud until early 1934. He went to rAS in 1934 and his first foal crop for RAs where in 1935 (Amira (1935), Hazma (1935), Ibn el Dere (1935).

Mashaan came to the rAS in 1935-His first foal crop were Nagia (1936) and Nagi (1936).
Nabras also came to the rAs in 1934. His first foal crop for them
Enzahi (1935).

While it does not matter, Dr Branch was appaently no where near the RAS
or the Horse committe making decisions.

Hansi biggrin.gif
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Avalondales Egyp...
post May 21 2007, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 21 2007, 09:36 PM)
Quote Tracy:
"This being during the same time frame...I fully understand that the dates are approximates, but the foaling records tend to follow a specific pattern which shows El Deree at the stud probably a year before Mashaan.. I really don't see how you can guide anyone past that snag..."

First off I would like to add another disclaimer... I am not a researcher nor do I claim to be...But what I am seeing here still doesn't make sense... Tracy, it is not correct that El Dere was a the RAS before Mashaan.
[The few sources I have state he was gifted to the Society in 1934...His first foal recorded for the RAS is Sid Abouhom born 3/2/1936 per the El Masri data base...So, based on the foaling record her was there in early 1935... But the same situation you claim for Mashaan could in all reality apply to El Deree for example the slipped foal and aborted foals ect... Which could place him there earlier also... But the date I have seen quoted regularly is 1934...
If you or anyone else has some information that shows that Dr. Branch was at the RAS was El Dere was gifted Even you yourself can't not give any more than an approximate date for the retirement of Dr. Branch spanning between the dates of 1932 to 1935, if it was 1935 the year that Mashaan is noted as retiring from the track then Dr. Branch, El Deree, and Mashaan are all contemporaries...  I would be be very interested to look at it.  But nothing, in all of the books or records that I have reviewed over almost twenty years has even suggested such a link. On the other hand, and at the risk of being seriously redundant, according to the personal testimony of Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, as reported in Judith Forbis in her published interview, Mashaan was leased by the RAS when Dr. Branch was managing the stud. Anyone is welcomed to either accept or reject that information as provided by Judith Forbis...SOFI accepts it.  I would assert that probably the questions weren't asked about El Deree since it was never clear who to talk to except a young man that was horse dealer, merchant or whatever his title was even that is unclear...Just because the words were not written quoted or spoken in regards to El Deree does not mean that some sort of overlapping time period for El Deree and Mashaan does not exist...  
With regard to the breeding records you mentioned; what records exactly are you speaking of? There is no information that I know of which provides the dates for when Mashaan was first used at stud. It is certainly not contained in the RAS History. It would not be a sound research process to assume an acquisition date of a stallion or even for when breeding began with a stallion, strictly from foaling dates of first recorded get. For one thing, this would not take into consideration any breeding that could have taken place for which a recorded foal was not produced.  Many mares slip or abort foals, foals die after birth and are not recorded, etc., etc., etc. The RAS had a number of stallions in their possession. In fact, in 1948 the figures were 47 Stallions (including those who were annual sent to various breeding stations) and 35 mares. I don't know if you have stallions or not, but I had 10 at one time. We made decisions on what stallions we would use during certain seasons based on a variety of reasons. If you were to conclude a date for when we acquired, or even first started using some of the stallions we owned based upon recorded foal dates of get, you would not have drawn an inaccurate conclusion. I don't know the exact circumstances of Mashaan, no one here does, we weren't there and the records are sketchy at best. But the only solid evidence we do have is Judith Forbis' written word that states that he was leased by the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch.  This part that you have stated does make sense... We do own a stallion and we do look for outcross blood... But, everything you claim for Mashaan is based on a statement that doesn't come with a date. In order to refute the question of El Deree you need a date for Dr. Branch's retirement and for the acquistion of Mashaan..Otherwise, it looks as though Mashaan was lucky enough to have people campaigning for him while the same questions were never asked in regards to El Deree...Then come the question of human nature... I don't know about you but any time I have been involved with a stallion I am much more curious to see what he produces initially versus holding on to him for a few years...But nothing you have stated has made me think of Mashaan and El Dereeas anything but contemporaries at RAS... The other thing I found interesting is while looking on El Masri data base is that El Deree and Mashaan according to those records share 1/2 siblings...
As you can see from the past arguments against the inclusion of Mashaan by SOFI, the first line of fire was that it was "proven" and recorded in the RAS History that he went there after 1935, after Dr. Branch retired. That was a false statement proven by the actual quote from the RAS History book. Either Kelly and Hansi don't have the book or didn't check it, I don't know which. Apparently both were also either unaware of the information provided by Judith Forbis, or they simply don't accept it as credible. However, now that the quote from her interview has been given, the argument has shifted to discrediting the importance of Dr. Branch. A very foolish approach for many reasons, and so very easy to disprove What dates would be your best estimate for the retirement of Dr. Branch and when Mashaan arrived at the RAS... I'm sorry that I can't satisfy you with a short, simple answer without including background history. The fact is, that to understand the philosophy behind the creation of SOFI and the criteria used for root stock selection, one needs to understand the nature of the links between the 7 Foundation breeders and the era they defined. This is not something that can be summed up in a few short sentences, but can be discovered through reading many important books by many very credible authors, spanning many years. I've mentioned that the people responsible for initially selecting and approving the root stock for SOF were highly studied and far more knowledgeable than myself on this subject. They understood the overview of historic factors involved, and believed that there was a very sound reason for subgrouping these horses in order to preserve and concentrate their blood within a closed genepool. I can take this statement at face value... I am not trying to call anything in to question... I just really really can't get past the fact that the dates are so close... The first foals for both stallions were born the same year... I guess I should just resign myself to Ray's explanation of the card game...Because really it makes as much sense as anything else...
I do feel badly that I am not able to be more helpful to you, but I hope that you will keep your mind open to additional information as you may come across it.  one side or the other has to eat crow or make amends...As time passes, you may It is my hope that everyone involved keep and open mind...There may come a day when one side or the other may have to live up to that standard of an open mind.

find that many little bits of information begin to come together and finally create a complete and satisfying picture. On the other hand, that may never happen and I strongly believe that no one should support or participate in any type of breeding program which doesn't make sense to them Well I kind of take exception to that statement...I don't breed SO horses.. I breed SE and Yes, I am very aware of the tradition and background of the breed... So, in that I suppose I meet the criterion to be a SE breeder...
Whatever choices we make, we have to believe in what we are doing to make it work.
Regards,
Caryn
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This post has been edited by Avalondales Egyptian Arabians: May 21 2007, 10:52 PM
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