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> Mashaan (machaan,michan) C.1920, in regard to El Deree- SOFI
Marilyn Lang
post May 22 2007, 04:32 AM
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Yes Kelly, please do enlighten us all to your research which you freely admit is without much historical documentation. Know you are not a fan of Judi Forbis or her books but if one is to be considered a scholar, one must contain all documentation regarding the subject matter within their library or at the very least, have access.

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Caryn Rogosky
post May 22 2007, 05:32 AM
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I've given all of the information I currently have knowledge of concerning Mashaan. If I acquire anything further, I'll most certainly share this with the forum. I've stated what I believe to be true as a result of study and significant cross referencing crucial literature by various authors. I do not think that referencing one's own data, or referencing a contemporary database (even if is a very fine one) is any substitute for consulting a broad spectrum of sources and tracing it all back to an original source. Therein lies he key.

I do believe that the information given by Judith Forbis which states in no uncertain terms that Mashaan was leased by the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch to be true and accurate. You either accept it or you don't...I do. I do not believe that El Dere was acquired by Dr. Branch, I believe that he was gifted to the RAS by King Foaud after the retirement of Dr. Branch. Unlike the written word of Judith Forbis, or the written word of the man who owned Mashaan, there is no evidence that El Dere had any connection with Dr. Branch at the RAS. Anyway, that's what I believe -- and others are welcomed to their beliefs. It is not for me to try to change them.

I have decided to go on being kind to myself indefinitely, so I will not be reading Kelly's posts, which I'm sure she won't mind. Someone who has claimed that I've spent 20 years spouting "hogwash" surely has no use for answers from me.
Caryn Rogosky
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Echo1
post May 22 2007, 11:56 AM
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QUOTE (Marilyn Lang @ May 22 2007, 05:32 AM)
Yes Kelly, please do enlighten us all to your research which you freely admit is without much historical documentation.  Know you are not a fan of Judi Forbis or her books but if one is to be considered a scholar, one must contain all documentation regarding the subject matter within their library or at the very least, have access. 

Marilyn
*


Dear Marilyn,
Yes, I do have her books, I respect her and know that for a fact she does support El Deree. I do know Judi Forbis and I am a fan of hers. As well as her breeding program and yes I do have all of her books.
IS she a member of your group? If not, then I suggest you stand on your own two feet and not hers.
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Echo1
post May 22 2007, 12:12 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 22 2007, 06:32 AM)
I've given all of the information I currently have knowledge of concerning Mashaan. If I acquire anything further, I'll most certainly share this with the forum. I've stated what I believe to be true as a result of study and significant cross referencing crucial literature by various authors. I do not think that referencing one's own data, or referencing a contemporary database (even if is a very fine one)  is any substitute for consulting a broad spectrum of sources and tracing it all back to an original source. Therein lies he key.

And therein sits Al Khamsa who cross references and documents from over 178 books, manuscripts, hujjays, and other crucial pieces of information pertaining to the history if the Arabian horse.

I  do believe that the information given by Judith Forbis which states in no uncertain terms that Mashaan was leased by the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch to be true and accurate.

If so, be it known that El Deree went to the RAS before Mashaan.  El Deree was also approved for racing in the purebred section by the committee.  The same committee that approved Mashaan for the race track.


You either accept it or you don't...I do. I do not believe that El Dere was acquired by Dr. Branch, I believe that he was gifted to the RAS by King Foaud after the retirement of Dr. Branch.

Simply, Mashaan did not go to the RAS until AFTER his race career, this is documented. His Race career ended in 1935 after the retirement of Dr Branch which you state was about 1932, this you have documented.  Yes he was gifted to the RAS  by Inshass, as many of their horses were used for breeding at the RAS. However, we have more information on this stallion now, in regards to where he came from "El Jibour " as did Mashaan also  come from "El Jibour"  Not to mention, 7 horses of which Al Khamsa states is considered to be Egypt I designated horses which are coming from the Inshass .  Also, the SOFI mare Badaouia was presented to Major Thompon.

Unlike the written word of Judith Forbis, or the written word of the man who owned Mashaan, there is no evidence that El Dere had any connection with Dr. Branch at the RAS. Anyway, that's what I believe -- and others are welcomed to their beliefs. It is not for me to try to change them.

Incorrect, he was approved for RACING on the track in Egypt, under the purebred section by the Race Committee which Dr Branch was the president.

I have decided to go on being kind to myself indefinitely, so I will not be reading Kelly's posts, which I'm sure she won't mind. Someone who has claimed that I've spent 20 years spouting "hogwash" surely has no use for answers from me.
Caryn Rogosky
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HLM
post May 22 2007, 12:55 PM
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Marylin

This is how confusions start, when one misconstrues words. I said " Consequences" no more and that means there is nothing on record Dr Branch did extra-ordinarily, and no more or less than any other appointed director.

Do you feel the other directors,by enlarge Veterinarians too, had no education and just came out of public school to become a director or picked from the streets? Why straying away from facts and try anything to confuse or mislead?

did it ever occur to you and your friends that also in Judi's publications errors can be found? Have you verified each word, each part of such? Judi was not exactly that much appreciated at the eAO during certain times, I know off. But then those are personal clashes. I think they were offended when their gift to her of Ibn Halima was turned into -it was a purchase-!. I dont wont to go into any further details of this, because you andyour friends were never at the EAO I gather,
and therefore would have no way of knowing what is what. I also dont believe that any author's works, including Judi's, is "the bible".

However, all this is inmaterial, material is that when you speak of research and collecting many materials, then it is also a matter of your and your friends intrepetation. Possibly not familiar at all with the cultures of the Arabian people, you could be WAY OFF!.Assumptions simply dont count.

(O by the way I forgot to mention that when our deligation a few years back went to Syria, they had the original Davenport Imports "authenticated" again by the tribe.)

It appears to me that your theory and that of your friends contains a lot of assumptions and as a clutch using Judi's work only. that is not very wise in my opinion.

So let us conclude that Dr Branch was no different than any other director in his
authoritiy, in his handling matters, and when someone is there for many years it stands to reason a good job was done. To put him on a pedistell in order to prove an so far unproven subject, is really not research in my oinion, but a personal matter to justify certain claims.

I really recommend you take the next plane and go and visit the eAO. They might even let you see their records, who knows. At the same time you might want to visit the Jockey clubs in cairo,Alexandria and Beyruth and familiarize yourself with what really is going on, their system, their records, and may be even take part in
watching the "Horse committee" at work which would include deciding which horses run in the Asil or Non Asil classes.You might also want to ascertain what each director of the rAS/EAO has accomplished, who they were and if indeed they had an "education".

Until your return , have a nice day

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms







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Robert 1
post May 22 2007, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE (Echo1 @ May 22 2007, 12:56 PM)
Dear Marilyn,
Yes, I do have her books,  I respect her and know that for a fact she does support El Deree. I do know Judi Forbis and I am a fan of hers.  As well as her breeding program and yes I do have all of her books. 
IS she a member of your group?  If not, then I suggest you stand on your own two feet and not hers.
*


Dear Marilyn,
We have and treasure every book Judi Forbis wrote regarding the Arabian Horse, perhaps you should choose someone else for your group to make reference to.
Sorry for the interuption now back to Kelly, Caryn, and Hansi. wink.gif
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beavercreek
post Sep 26 2010, 03:18 PM
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interesting discussion.

I have an old but wonderful El Deree stallion and if they are all like him, I know why its an important SE line. I added his photo and pedigree to the photo and pedigree site. Incredible temperament, desert type - short backed, fine boned, huge eye and nostril, short broad head, tail like a flag. at over 20 years I left him with a stable down the road to condition and they would put him on a walker - they finally called and asked me if I was lying about his age because they had gotten up to two hours and he just never got tired! he has given me 3 wonderful fillies and now a colt who looks like him reincarnated. they can all trot forever and yet are extremely smart. not although they have lovely heads they are not the modern exotic head (an unfortunate comment I heard about the extreme heads now so popular was made at the recent Breeders conference in Atlanta was that they look like someone had smashed their faces in and they were sure they could no longer breath properly - don't know, don't want THAT extreme a dish...). anyway just wanted to share that pure El Deree stallions (I think there are a few others still out there) are still around and contributing to the gene pool (although my babies are not pure El Deree).
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idan atiq
post Sep 26 2010, 05:46 PM
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Beautiful bay stallion.
What is his pedigree, please.
Thanks,
Tzviah
QUOTE (beavercreek @ Sep 26 2010, 05:18 PM) *
interesting discussion.

I have an old but wonderful El Deree stallion and if they are all like him, I know why its an important SE line. I added his photo and pedigree to the photo and pedigree site. Incredible temperament, desert type - short backed, fine boned, huge eye and nostril, short broad head, tail like a flag. at over 20 years I left him with a stable down the road to condition and they would put him on a walker - they finally called and asked me if I was lying about his age because they had gotten up to two hours and he just never got tired! he has given me 3 wonderful fillies and now a colt who looks like him reincarnated. they can all trot forever and yet are extremely smart. not although they have lovely heads they are not the modern exotic head (an unfortunate comment I heard about the extreme heads now so popular was made at the recent Breeders conference in Atlanta was that they look like someone had smashed their faces in and they were sure they could no longer breath properly - don't know, don't want THAT extreme a dish...). anyway just wanted to share that pure El Deree stallions (I think there are a few others still out there) are still around and contributing to the gene pool (although my babies are not pure El Deree).

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Avalondales Egyp...
post Sep 26 2010, 07:41 PM
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That stallion is Ramses Boomerang...Very nice Heirloom El-Deree Stallion... He needs to have a date with my Heirloom El-Deree Mare Bint Ishtar... tracy
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Dieter
post Feb 13 2012, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ May 18 2007, 09:36 PM) *
Hello,

I must say folks, that to an SE newbie like me, this is pure hell to sort out!! I don't think I have anything important to add in regard to the records, the rules and the application thereof. Which is why I am a newbie.

However, after slogging through the sarcasm and rude behavior, I think I will withhold judgment on trying to make a decision on anything SE.

I very much appreciated Kelly's calm, logical, point-by-point attempt to clarify things. And I'm left with one question as follows:

Did Dr. Branch LEAVE his "auspices" with the RAS in 1932, or did he take them with him when he left in 1932? blink.gif

Confused out here in little-person land,
Ray


Remembering when . . . and missing THAT Kelly.
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2mntn
post Feb 13 2012, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (Dieter @ Feb 13 2012, 08:35 AM) *
Remembering when . . . and missing THAT Kelly.



laugh.gif Nearly 5 years have passed since I made that last post. That's enough time to go through a 4-year university, plus another year for a Masters. Almost enough time for three tours in 'Nam, or wherever, and a whole bunch of other stuff. I think I've learned quite a bit about SE's, and Arabian horses, in general - perhaps enough to knock some of the newby off of me. Some of what I've learned has more to do with the owners of Arabian horses than the horses themselves. wink.gif
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Dieter
post Feb 13 2012, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 13 2012, 11:21 AM) *
laugh.gif Nearly 5 years have passed since I made that last post. That's enough time to go through a 4-year university, plus another year for a Masters. Almost enough time for three tours in 'Nam, or wherever, and a whole bunch of other stuff. I think I've learned quite a bit about SE's, and Arabian horses, in general - perhaps enough to knock some of the newby off of me. Some of what I've learned has more to do with the owners of Arabian horses than the horses themselves. wink.gif
biggrin.gif Reading through this Mashaan thread, the theme is the same as in the Exo thread. Seriously makes me laugh out loud. The knowledge you've gained regarding these topics far exceeds my own (lack of interest) . . . one of these days I may have to refer to you as Doctor Ray wink.gif Just think, in another 5 years, this discussion will continue and it's doubtful much will change unless new science findings force a change . . . even then some will continue to hold fast to their rationale.

I was looking for the post where someone stated Mrs. Ott took a shotgun out to the field and . . . do you remember that?
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2mntn
post Feb 16 2012, 11:52 PM
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Well, I read through this whole topic again and, with a new perspective gained over a few more years, I have a couple of comments to make. First, with regard to the origins of Mashaan and El Deree. It is noted that they were both from the same tribe and should therefore be considered as "equals". As we know, every horse is an individual who produces differently from every other horse. Therefore, a decision to include one and exclude the other can make sense. As far as the nuance of having had Dr. Branch in control of the selection process and therefore contributing some measure of added value, I would say that this aspect is obviously subjective and not worth wasting time in arguing the point. That said, if Branch was in England judging horse shows in 1935, then he wouldn't have been in Egypt, making breeding selections. Sounds like it would have been Dr. Ahmed Mabrouk, with able assistant Dr. Ameen Zaher, who were "in charge" from the mid-1930's until 1941 - according to Forbis in "The Classic Arabian Horse".
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HLM
post Feb 17 2012, 01:56 AM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 17 2012, 01:52 AM) *
Well, I read through this whole topic again and, with a new perspective gained over a few more years, I have a couple of comments to make. First, with regard to the origins of Mashaan and El Deree. It is noted that they were both from the same tribe and should therefore be considered as "equals". As we know, every horse is an individual who produces differently from every other horse. Therefore, a decision to include one and exclude the other can make sense. As far as the nuance of having had Dr. Branch in control of the selection process and therefore contributing some measure of added value, I would say that this aspect is obviously subjective and not worth wasting time in arguing the point. That said, if Branch was in England judging horse shows in 1935, then he wouldn't have been in Egypt, making breeding selections. Sounds like it would have been Dr. Ahmed Mabrouk, with able assistant Dr. Ameen Zaher, who were "in charge" from the mid-1930's until 1941 - according to Forbis in "The Classic Arabian Horse".



Well Ray, you are not alone, I have been struggling with this for many years. What I always wanted to know is, how
Mrs Ott arrived at the Blue Star definition for certain hores, when there is no contious pedigree on their parents. Was it Raswan who told her that there is no Mu'niqi Blood in them, or how did it work?
Raswan declared the two lins Harruj and Sbeili "Asils". Most studbooks from the ME/Regions/Persia do show many Mu'niqi lines and so many extra strains I never heard of. Just look at the Turkish Stud Book.
Or the Iranies,Iraquis, etc. While this really mattered to me when it comes to the breeding shed, it still neds an answer for me,
El Deree produced 26 daughters and 17 sons, Mashaan 4 daughters and 7 sons,. I guess leaving El Deree out, the
SOFI numbers were kept in check. At least Walter Schimanski had this explanation for me years ago.

More and more many realize that the "label" system isolated many lines, so badly needed for some. So what does this tell us, can we learn from it?
If some of these horses would have excellend under saddle, race track, endurance, 3-day eventing, etc,etc,
one could understand better. But this has not happened, or? I noticed that during the past decades it was the "Label" which was promoted, never mind the horse, with of course some exceptions. Dollar Bills were bred, and only a few good horses, this up todate in my opinion.

Now, if we look at the "Davenports", "the Doyles" we can see todate excellent specimen holding their own in Stress performances, and they dont even carry a "Label" imagine!.I have seen some truly outstanding ones. And look at the Spanish horses, not only very beautful, but very functional, and not even "Asil"/

Just about every equine breed has great performers in their pedigree and people look for it, and breed accordingly.
these folks want to produce a "doing Horse" and many have. Some of these horses are still marketed for fortunes (see the French) and are horses we have to compete against. Do the "Preservers" ever think of this, look at it?

In the meantime the desert countries continue to produce excellent "doing horses" horses which are hard to defeat.
We saw some of these in Qatar,, Saudi Arabia, Syria etc. some not even considered Asil, but par excellent horse flesh in my opinion.

Now, what will our children do, our younger generation, ride a "Label" and left behind? Has anybody ever seen the Horses in Oman and the hundreds of young children educated in horsemenship and riding? does anybody look at the Qhorses and see how 5year olds pole bend right here at home ? So what's wrong with the Arabian Horses, many of them?
Or is it OUR PEOPLE, who degenerate the horses, when it might take 5 generation to bring all back, if this is possible?

Fortunately there are still some of our smaller breeders out there, breeding for producing "doing Arabians". These people should be saluted and respected for their sacrifices and hard work.

May be the time has come when the sunglasses have to come off, and reality faced.

All take care
Hansi



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