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> Mashaan (machaan,michan) C.1920, in regard to El Deree- SOFI
Caryn Rogosky
post May 18 2007, 03:52 AM
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Quote Kelly: "So maybe someone else from SOFI could let us know if SOFI does or does not support RAS? "

That has to be one of the most peculiar questions I've ever heard in some time, and as written, I believe it is unanswerable. How does an organization "support" something which no longer exists?

As already clearly stated, SOFI absolutely, positively and without question, respects and accepts as properly qualified all SE and AK horses according to the criteria of inclusion defined by these organizations. If AK qualifies a horse as a pure desertbred, SOFI accepts it as a pure desertbred. If the PS qualifies a horse as Straight Egyptian, SOFI accepts it as a Straight Egyptian. Since AK, the PS and SOFI all have horses in their foundation root lists which are associated with the RAS, OF COURSE SOFI respects these horses, and respects what "was" the RAS as well as what is now the EAO.
Caryn Rogosky
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 18 2007, 04:07 AM
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Quote Hansi:

"According to my records Mashaan was bought by Sh Fawzan El-Sabek of the Dawasir, Egypt prior to 1929. How he got there, I do not know.
He raced well in Egypt and was used by the RAS for the first time in 1935.
He produced 4 daughters and 7 sons, and can not be considered a herd sire at the RAS.
If anybody
has records how this stallion got to Egypt, releases these, it would be great.
According to SOFI, what I was told, Mashaan was selected by Dr Branch and became a herd sire at RAS. Can anybody factually substanciate this, or is it another fabel?"

The information which does "factually substantiate" that Mashaan was selected by Dr. Branch and became a sire at the RAS has been published and available for many, many, many years -- more than 3 decades in fact. I don't think that information which was personally given by one of the most respected sources for information on early Egyptian Arabian horse ancestry, and the OWNER of this horse, could be considered a "fable".
Caryn Rogosky
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 18 2007, 04:46 AM
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Quote Kelly,
"...which is as you know after 1932 when Dr Branch left. ( obviously these horses were not breeding "under the 'auspices' of Dr Branch" , which seems to be a key phrase in the definition of qualifiying a SOFI horse for their roster) El Deree as you know also was breeding at the RAS and produce Sid Abouhom for them in 1936 in between the births of Mishaans RAS foal and Nabras' RAS Foal."

No, wrong. The criteria for inclusion for a SOFI ancestor requires that the horse be either bred by, acquired by, or otherwise introduced into the genetic stream by...(the RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch).

Mashaan was, in fact, acquired by Dr. Branch and perfectly meets the criteria for inclusion.

El Dere was neither bred by, acquired by, nor otherwise introduced into the genetic stream by...((the RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch).

Caryn Rogosky.
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Gari
post May 18 2007, 05:22 AM
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Hey Sis,

An MOT oooops!


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Echo1
post May 18 2007, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 18 2007, 02:54 AM)
Quote Kelly:
"But what is also interesting is that he went to the RAS in 1935 "after" Dr Branch had retired in 1932, (according to Carl Raswan and Al Khamsa) which is supported by the fact that he had a mare born to him by Bint Samiha in 1938."

Wrong. The Al Khamsa dates are approximates/estimates. Indeed, Mashaan was acquired by the RAS while under the auspices of Dr. Branch. According to the personal interview conducted by Judith Forbis, Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, who owned Mashaan at the time,  stated that "the Royal Agricultural Society - then managed by Dr. Branch - leased the horse for a time and used him at stud." Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, J. Forbis, page 127.
Caryn Rogosky
*




Al Khamsa states "Mashaan was leased to the RAS "AFTER" his racing career. "

Mashaan's foal was born in 1938 out of Bint Samiha (RAS) . 1932 to 1938 is a very long pregnancy.

Raswan and Al Khamsa and the RAS all state Mashaan went to the RAS in 1935.
1935 is AFTER Dr Branch left in 1932.

Clearly he is qualified and that is not the question, my question to you is, that you wrap all this under Dr. Branch, and i do not believe that he made ALL the decisions on the horses that you say he did. He left in 1932 and here are horses being bred 6 years later that you are saying he bred.?????

What do you mean when you say "how can you support something that no longer exists in referece to the RAS. You know what I mean.
What about Nabras too? Born in 1921, raced in 1924 and foals born in 1935 and 1937. He wasn't 'introduced into the 'genetic stream' as you put it until after Branch left either.

El Deree was introduced into the genetic stream by the RAS in 1936 before Mashaan and in between the foals of Nabras. El Deree is right in the middle of these two stallions at the RAS according to dates.


Nabras 1935 - Enzahi out of Fardous (RAS)
El Deree 1936 - Sid Abouhom out of Layla (RAS)
Nabras 1937--Komeira out of Layla(RAS)
Nabras 1937 - *El Akhrani out of Bint Rustem (RAS)
Mashaan 1938 -Shams out of Bint Shamiha (RAS)

El Deree and Nabras bred the same mare at the RAS. (Layla RAS)
Did the RAS breed these horses or did they not?
Do you or do you not support RAS breeding?

Every one of these foals were born AFTER Dr Branch left the RAS. NONE were "introduced into the genetic stream under the auspices of Dr Branch".
It was the RAS.
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Echo1
post May 18 2007, 01:53 PM
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Caryn,

Unless you are referring to 'when' these stallions went to the RAS of which the following information is:

Mashaan- according to the RAS history he went to the RAS in 1935 and produced a mare out of Bint Samiha (RAS) in 1938 - bred her in 1937

El Deree -according to the RAS history went to the RAS in 1934-35 and produced his first foal for them Sid Abouhom, out of Layla(RAS) in 1936.

Nabras- produced foals at the RAS in 1935-1937. SO he must have been there in 1934.

Nabras and El Deree were both bred to Layla (RAS) at the RAS

Sid Abouhom (El Deree X Layla RAS) 1936
Komeira ( Nabras X Layla RAS) 1937


Also let us note that
Mashaan was from the El Jibour tribe as was his sire.
El Deree is also from the El Jibour tribe.

Further
Mashaan - Sheikh Abdul Aziz El-Sabek purchased and imported Mashaan to Egypt
El Deree - Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek is quoted as saying on 9/25/68 that El Deree was from the El Jibour tribe as well.
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Echo1
post May 18 2007, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 18 2007, 05:46 AM)
Quote Kelly,
"...which is as you know after 1932 when Dr Branch left. ( obviously these horses were not breeding "under the 'auspices' of Dr Branch" , which seems to be a key phrase in the definition of qualifiying a SOFI horse for their roster) El Deree as you know also was breeding at the RAS and produce Sid Abouhom for them in 1936 in between the births of Mishaans RAS foal and Nabras' RAS Foal."

No, wrong. The criteria for inclusion for a SOFI ancestor requires that the horse be either  bred by, acquired by, or otherwise introduced into the genetic stream by...(the RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch).

Mashaan was, in fact, acquired by Dr. Branch and perfectly meets the criteria for inclusion.

El Dere was neither bred by, acquired by, nor otherwise introduced into the genetic stream by...((the RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch).

Caryn Rogosky.
*



Dr Branch left the RAS in 1932

Mishaan and El Deree arrived at the RAS 1935
Nabras did not breed for the RAS until 1934 producing his first foal for the RAS in 1935 (Enzahi RAS out of Fardous RAS)

Nabras and El Deree and Mashaan were not bred by, acquired by nor otherwise intorduced inot the genetic stream by ..((the RAS under the auspices of Dr Branch). They did not breed for the RAS until years after Dr Branch left the RAS.
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Kimberli Nelson
post May 18 2007, 02:43 PM
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One note I would like to make is that what WE call a stud book was actually the HISTORY of the RAS written well after many things took place. The horses that are included in this book and subsequent books may have not been the ONLY horses bred and may have been included only if they were retained by the RAS. It shows those that were recorded and may be that they were important at the time. Without looking at the actual RAS records we may never know exactly how many foals these stallions really had. I think that to assume that the only horses in Egypt are recorded in The History of the RAS is a big mistake.

I am sure that the horses that were sold from the RAS as shown in some of the stud books were bred and produced pure bred foals from the stallions at the breeding stations that were never recorded anywhere. How many foals did Nazeer have before he was brought back as a older horse from the breeding station? How many were purebred? How many were not?

If we are going to insist on ONLY recorded history, we may as well forget the whole thing.
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Echo1
post May 18 2007, 02:51 PM
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Hi Kimberli,
I understand what you are saying.
But what I am saying is that IF we are going to 'quote' what is recorded, then we should at least quote it correctly and not change, alter, add too, or subtract from what is written and documented.
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Wahag
post May 18 2007, 03:23 PM
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According to my records about Mashaan:

Born: 1920 or 1925 ( unknown exactly)
Strain: Kuhailan Ajouz
Color: Bay
Owner: Mr. Fouzan Al Sabeg ( Saudi Impasedor in Egypt)

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Echo1
post May 18 2007, 03:44 PM
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Hi Mohamed,

That is what is also in Al Khamsa II.

It states that Mashaan was purchased and imported to Egypt by Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, and owned by Sheikh Fawzan El Sabek of the Dawasir, Saudi Arabian Minister in Cairo. (brothers)

Also stated is that he (Mashaan) is from the El Jibour tribe of the Shammar near Deyr as was his sire, as was El Deree.

Al Khamsa states that Forbis adds that Mashaan was leased to the RAS after his racing career and was returned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabia.

Entry #6075 in Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information as the RAS History, and gives the date of ca.1935, which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to the RAS.
Sire of
Shams (RAS) 1938 bay mare, out of Bint Samiha (RAS)

According to the RAS, Al Khamsa and Raswan, It would appear that both El Deree and Mahsaan went to the RAS about the same time. 1934-1935 respectively.
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 18 2007, 04:28 PM
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Quote Kelly:
"Al Khamsa states "Mashaan was leased to the RAS "AFTER" his racing career."

The Sheiykh states that he leased the horse to the RAS after "he" retired him from his racing career, however, the RAS also raced their stallions. The Jockey Club records do not state whose ownership Mashann raced under but since he was leased to the RAS the ownership would likely not have been changed in any event.

HOWEVER, there is a very distinct break and division in Machaan's racing records. They show that he raced hard during the 1928-1929 racing season, in which whe ran 12 races, won 4, came in 2nd for 5, was 9th in earnings. This is noted before the remaining racing years are listed, as if a synopsis for that chapter of his career. Then, he did not race at all for the following season : 1929-1930, 1930-1931, 1931-1932. Seems like a retirement to me. A three year gap in a racing record is not typical, in fact, the records of approximately 70 different horses provided in Authentic Arabian Bloodstock (J. Forbis) show that not one of them had such a gap. All raced consecutive years throughout their careers, except for two cases where there was a single season missed. Then, Mashann raced again for two more seasons but not consecutively 1932-1933, did not race in 1933-1934, and then raced only twice in the season of 1934-1935 but did not place in either.

"Mashaan's foal was born in 1938 out of Bint Samiha (RAS) . 1932 to 1938 is a very long pregnancy."

That statement is meaningless and defies logic, indicates absolutely nothing whatsoever relative to the issue of whether or not Mashaan was acquired by Dr. Branch -- which he was.

"Raswan and Al Khamsa and the RAS all state Mashaan went to the RAS in 1935.1935 is AFTER Dr Branch left in 1932."

No, wrong. Al Khamsa does not state that "Mashaan went to the RAS in 1935". It states the following, and I quote: "Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information and gives the date as ca.1935 which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to the RAS." That little ca. stands for circa, meaning "around or about the time". It is not specific. As I said before the dates given by Al Khamsa on this point are approximates and/or estimates...as is the case.

Do you believe that the information obtained by Judi Forbis is fabricated or false? If so, I suggest you take your argument to her. However, I have found the information she has provided on so many matters to be very reliable. Furthermore, this information was obtained in a in a personal interview with THE person who would know the details at the time, the owner of the horse, who would have no reason to specifically indicate that Dr. Branch was the manager of the RAS when Maashan went there if it were not true.

Again with the RAS History Book: This is just another example of why this book cannot be relied upon as the end-all and be-all source for information on activity at the RAS prior to the year the book was published. It is an invaluable asset which provides a wealth of knowledge and insight into the breeding activites during early years at the RAS. However, the information was gathered and compiled more than a decade after Dr. Branch retired, by a third party whose knowledge and recollections were not derived in the capacity of the Director, and therefore, had to be lacking to some extent. This book was never intended to be a registry and was never claimed by the author or the sponsor to be an entirely complete or absolutely accurate account of all activities at the RAS from 1914 through its publication.

"Clearly he is qualified and that is not the question"

Oh isn't that the question? Actually, I believe that was precisely the question. And it was answered. Yes, despite the efforts of yourself and Hansi to prove otherwise, Mashaan is qualified.

" my question to you is, that you wrap all this under Dr. Branch, and i do not believe that he made ALL the decisions on the horses that you say he did. He left in 1932 and here are horses being bred 6 years later that you are saying he bred.?????"

Again, a meaningless composite of inaccuracies, complete misquotes and gross misstatements. I am not saying anything other than Mashaan is a qualified SOFI foundation horse, a qualified AK horse, and a qualified SE horse as per the criteria for inclusion by each of these organizations.

I suggest that both you and Hansi do your own research and confirm your own data rather than expecting others to do it for you. You apparently both assume that you have every right to make defamatory public statements about our foundation ancestors and/or our qualifying organizations based on very poor research efforts, abstract supposition, obscure theory, wild conjecture and other such nonsense. You then expect that it is the obligation of others to spend all of their time defending against such. Well I disagree. You are also both apparently incapable of admitting that you are wrong when shown to be, or of apologizing to those you so frequently offend with your false accusations, insults and harassment, which is unending.

If you don't like or agree with the selection of foundation horses of an organization, just don't participate. I don't believe anyone is knocking down your respective doors trying to convince you to so. But I do find it interesting that for people who constantly bemoan the emphasis on labels, you spend an awful lot of time trying to prove that your own horses ought to qualified to wear them all.

Because I have no interest in effecting the beliefs of either you or Hansi one way or the other, I would not bother to post responses to these crazy fishing expeditions but for my concerns about the honest education of newcomers and interested people who do not have access to a large library of research materials. To sit back and allow the unfettered dissemination of false and derogatory information is to permit those genuinely eager to learn to be misled, manipulated and misinformed. I consider this to be as big a threat to the future of our breed as any other possible worry.

I apologize in advance if my language was too exotic for you to understand, or too complex for you to process as both you and Hansi have complained of so often, but I think that most people will not have a problem. Enough precious time spent on this. Over and out.
Caryn Rogosky
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HLM
post May 18 2007, 06:12 PM
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Dear Echo1

I asgree with yo
It is talked about Dr Branch doing this or that and having factual
evidence. this I like to see. According to what I know Dr Branch hardly ever got involved with anything after his retirement in 1932 and there is absolutely no evidence that he selected Mashaan for the RAS. Matter of fact I dont know of any evidence that he selected Nabras either. He was aquired first by Mohamed Al-Atribi Pasha from the El Agidaad Tribe in Syria prior to 1925. Where do all those sudden "facts" come from, nobody elese knows anything about?

Nabras first offspring was "Enzahi" 1935 bred by the Kafr Stud Farm. According to my records he was aquired by Kafr Farouk Stud in 1934. All offspring where bred by Kafr Faruk Stud,a branch of the RAS, and there is no evidence that Dr Branch supervised such or had anything to do with it. If this is incorrect, then we need to see some form of proof and not wishful thinking.

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HLM
post May 18 2007, 06:26 PM
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Echo1

I forgot to ad that I have been at the EAO more than once and have looked at their herdbooks/studbooks. Those who claim to know more apear to have never set foot in the Middle east and go strictly by accumpsions.

Personally I dont care what SOFI does, they lost in my opinion all crediability,have no reasearcher with great factual knowledge and I like to know how many archives they went through, how many middle east countries they visited etc. To state what the Jockey club records say, when never even having looked at them, is another one of those fata morganas.How can anybody believe all these fabrications made.The next thing they will claim is that aiglon stood at the RAS and RAS owned Laila. that would really fill the cup., ha.

May be they have documents signed with a rubber stamp left by Dr Branch and others. they might try this trick too.

What they should really do try these horses under their acceptance if it is breeding stock to be preserved based on the under saddle accomplishments
I know of a great one, I doubt if they even know about it.
So I guess its pedigree breeding, living in a cloud of wishful thinking.

Have a nice day
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Echo1
post May 19 2007, 12:46 AM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 18 2007, 05:28 PM)
Quote Kelly:
"Al Khamsa states "Mashaan was leased to the RAS "AFTER" his racing career."

The Sheiykh states that he leased the horse to the RAS after "he" retired him from his racing career, however, the RAS also raced their stallions. The Jockey Club records do not state whose ownership Mashann raced under but since he was leased to the RAS the ownership would likely not have been changed in any event.


Caryn, DO NOT add to what is written.  That is where you get yourself in trouble. AL KHAMSA states "Forbis adds that Mashaan was leased to the RAS after his racing career and was returned to the stud if Prince Failsal in Saudi Arabia"   WHERE does it say what your wrote? please quote this source.


HOWEVER, there is a very distinct break and division in Machaan's racing records. They show that he raced hard during the 1928-1929 racing season, in which whe ran 12 races, won 4, came in 2nd for 5, was 9th in earnings. This is noted before the remaining racing years are listed, as if a synopsis for that chapter of his career. Then, he did not race at all for the following season : 1929-1930, 1930-1931, 1931-1932. Seems like a retirement to me.  A three year gap in a racing record is not typical, in fact, the records of approximately 70 different horses provided in Authentic Arabian Bloodstock (J. Forbis) show that not one of them had such a gap. All raced consecutive years throughout their careers, except for two cases where there was a single season missed. Then, Mashann raced again for two more seasons but not consecutively 1932-1933, did not race in 1933-1934, and then raced only twice in the season of 1934-1935 but did not place in either.

Exactly, he was leased to the RAS AFTER his racing career, which ended in 1935, which is what everyone is saying.

"Mashaan's foal was born in 1938 out of Bint Samiha (RAS) . 1932 to 1938 is a very long pregnancy."

That statement is meaningless and defies logic, indicates absolutely nothing whatsoever relative to the issue of whether or not Mashaan was acquired by Dr. Branch -- which he was.

OH yes it does mean something.  It means that he did not go to the RAS until AFTER his race career, in 1935, which is also AFTER DR.BRANCH left the RAS.  You stated that Dr. Branch supervised his breeding, I don't think so.... He went to the RAS in 1935, and bred a mare in 1937, and had a filly for the RAS in 1938...all of which took place after Dr Branch left in 1932.

"Raswan and Al Khamsa and the RAS all state Mashaan went to the RAS in 1935.1935 is AFTER Dr Branch left in 1932."

No, wrong. Al Khamsa does not state that "Mashaan went to the RAS in 1935".  It states the following, and I quote: "Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information and gives the date as ca.1935 which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to the RAS." That little ca. stands for circa, meaning "around or about the time".  It is not specific. As I said before the dates given by Al Khamsa on this point are approximates and/or estimates...as is the case.

Good try, but  let us quote it exactly.

"Entry # 6075 in Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information as the RAS HISTORY, and gives  a date of ca.1935, which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to the RAS ."

The second part of your paragraph just amazes me how you are not following what Al Khamsa has written.  WHere do you get the liberty to just make things up?   We all know what circa means, and AL KHAMSA is saying although they give the date ca. 1935 which Mashaan went to the RAS, they feel the date is correct.    ON THIS POINT, they are saying the ca date when he went to the RAS is correct.  

Ca, dates are primarily seen for dates of birth in Al Khamsa, Al Khamsa clearly states this.  On this specific point in reference to when he went to the RAS they are saying this is CORRECT... 1935.   Regardless....it is proven that the foal was not born until 1938 which is CLEARLY the exact year, and it is also CLEARLY NOTED that Dr. Branch left the RAS in 1932. 



Do you believe that the information obtained by Judi Forbis is fabricated or false?

Yes I believe Judi Forbis, it is you that I do not believe.  And I resent the fact you pull the Judi  card here.  Judi Forbis is quoted as saying in regards to Mashaan : " Forbis adds that Mashaan was leased to the RAS after his racing career and was returned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabia" 

If so, I suggest you take your argument to her. However, I have found the information she has provided on so many matters to be very reliable.

Good, I am glad you find her as a reliable souce as does most everyone else.  She stated the horse did not go to the RAS until AFTER his racing career .  Which did end in 1935 according to the records of the Jockey Club, egypt.

Furthermore, this information was obtained in a in a personal interview with THE person who would know the details at the time, the owner of the horse, who would have no reason to specifically indicate that Dr. Branch was the manager of the RAS when Maashan went there if it were not true.

Here's my question and please quote the exact quote as it is written,on page 124 of Authentic Arabian Bloodstock.   . ARE THEY referring to the horse being "approved by the RAS- under the managaement for Dr Branch"... for RACING ....and then years later, was leased to the RAS for breeding?

Wouldn't that be more likely the truth Caryn?  SInce the Jockey Club shows the horse raced up until 1935 .  Everyone attests to that fact, and everyone attests to the fact that he did not go to the RAS until AFTER he finished racing.   



Again with the RAS History Book: This is just another example of why this book cannot be relied upon as the end-all and be-all source for information on activity at the RAS prior to the year the book was published. It is an invaluable asset which provides a wealth of knowledge and insight into the breeding activites during early years at the RAS. However, the information was gathered and compiled more than a decade after Dr. Branch retired, by a third party whose knowledge and recollections were not derived in the capacity of the Director, and therefore, had to be lacking to some extent. This book was never intended to be a registry and was never claimed by the author or the sponsor to be an entirely complete or absolutely accurate account of all activities at the RAS from 1914 through its publication. 

Cannot be relied upon?  Whatever do you mean?  You're not suggesting that you are a more reliable source for what happened at the RAS back then....are you?


"Clearly he is qualified and that is not the question"

Oh isn't that the question? Actually, I believe that was precisely the question. And it was answered. Yes, despite the efforts of yourself and Hansi to prove otherwise, Mashaan is qualified.


Please Caryn, get a grip, the point is that Mashaan was approved, he qualifies and to put it bluntly since you don't seem to grasp all of this is that your group qualifed this horse based on  a 'definition' or a set of criteria,  and any logical person can see that El Deree meets the SAME criteria as Mashaan. The same definition you use to qualify horses for your club should be the same for all horses. PERIOD.   And all this 'under the auspices' of Dr Branch" is just a small thread that you are holding onto which is beginning to unravel with the new hujay on El Deree.  

" my question to you is, that you wrap all this under Dr. Branch, and i do not believe that he made ALL the decisions on the horses that you say he did. He left in 1932 and here are horses being bred 6 years later that you are saying he bred.?????"

Again, a meaningless composite of inaccuracies, complete misquotes and gross misstatements.

Hardly the case, Dr Branch retired in 1932, Mashaan did not go to the RAS until 1935.  He did not have his first foal until 1938. A gross misstatement would be that Dr Branch approved a horse for the RAS breeding program when he was not there.

I am not saying anything other than Mashaan is a qualified SOFI foundation horse, a qualified AK horse, and a qualified SE horse as per the criteria for inclusion by each of these organizations.


Great, because that is what I am saying too, HE is SE, Al Khamsa and SOFI. But the key question is WHY is he SOFI?  Can you tell us WHY, can you give the criteria, because I would like it to be applied equally and by the same measure to all horses, who meet the same credentials.


I suggest that both you and Hansi do your own research and confirm your own data rather than expecting others to do it for you.

I have, can YOU say the same?

You apparently both assume that you have every right to make defamatory public statements about our foundation ancestors and/or our qualifying organizations based on very poor research efforts, abstract supposition, obscure theory, wild conjecture and other such nonsense.

You appently are wrong. I am not making a defamatory public statement.  I am saying SHOW me how YOU came to the conclusion to not include El Deree yet hopscotch around and pick Nabras and Mashaan and leave out El Deree? You are the one who should be explaining, not I.

You then expect that it is the obligation of others to spend all of their time defending against such. Well I disagree.

You are the one who claims to be the founder of SOFI, so shouldn't it be YOU who can answer questions on your group that you formed?  Or are we all to assume you are so higly self appointed and self decorated to not have to speak with the general public?

You are also both apparently incapable of admitting that you are wrong when shown to be, or of apologizing to those you so frequently offend with your false accusations, insults and harassment, which is unending.

How clever of you to try to make me out to be the bad guy, this sentence is pure projection on your part.  And you are wrong, I can only speak for myself, and I am saying that the PRESERVATION community needs to account for this new information on El Deree and make corrections.   Your  obstinance is what should be apologized for if anything. You're failure to act or respond to this new hujay is embarrassing to anyone involved in preservation breeding.  Are you or are you not open to receive new information, and are you willing to make any adjustments if need be.  All registries and groups have an open book policy,  what is YOUR policy in regards to your group, we would like to know. 

If you don't like or agree with the selection of foundation horses of an organization, just don't participate. I don't believe anyone is knocking down your respective doors trying to convince you to so.

Actually I received an email from the President of SOFI asking me to join and be a member of SOFI just the other day.

But I do find it interesting that for people who constantly bemoan the emphasis on labels, you spend an awful lot of time trying to prove that your own horses ought to qualified to wear them all.

Do you want to talk about my personal business here and now?  We breed SE horses, some are Heirloom, some are Heirloom/El Deree, some are SE, some even have Exochorda.  What is the problem Caryn, did I forget to ask you what I am allowed to do?  I will tell you this, using 'certain' labels has proved to be very bad for business. And many prosepective buyers have viewed it as a turn off.

Because I have no interest in effecting the beliefs of either you or Hansi one way or the other, I would not bother to post responses to these crazy fishing expeditions but for my concerns about the honest education of newcomers and interested people who do not have access to a large library of research materials.

Sure, throw in the 'little guy' for the sympathy vote and mention how you are protecting all the newcomers.  Just explain to me once and I will never ask again, what have you done in terms of education, promotion and marketing to help the newcomers?

To sit back and allow the unfettered dissemination of false and derogatory information is to permit those genuinely eager to learn to be misled, manipulated and  misinformed. I consider this to be as big a threat to the future of our breed as any other possible worry.

What information I have posted is taken from Al Khamsa II, the recent Hujay on El Deree, and what most find as credible.  I do not know of many people who find the truth something to fear or perceive the truth as a threat.

I apologize in advance if my language was too exotic for you to understand, or too complex for you to process as both you and Hansi have complained of so often, but I think that most people will not have a problem. Enough precious time spent on this. Over and out.

No problem Caryn, I do not find hogwash to be exotic by any means.  Yes, I do agree 20 years spent trying to double talk your way though things is wasting precious time.
Caryn Rogosky
*


Have a great evening and I do wish you well. I hope you can someday understand that this is NOT an attack, but rather a reconciliation of horses. I am sorry if you feel that this is personal, it is not, nor does it have to be.

I asked you ONE simple question....

Does your group endorse the RAS horses or not? Mashaan is listed by Al Khamsa as an RAS horse.
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