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> Mashaan (machaan,michan) C.1920, in regard to El Deree- SOFI
HLM
post May 19 2007, 01:16 AM
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Dear Echo 1

I truly thank you for your post in reply to a person who has created so much trouble and confusion, and I never had the words to set it straight. I have gone through 13 years of humiliation, even vulgarity thrown at me, and anything I brought forward to educate was instantly attacked. I resented it especially when it came from a person who has no clue of research and prefers fishing trips.

Many people are afraid of such person, who is using a flanboyant english, throwing names about, making statements which are so far fetched. When caught in a lie, then correct it with a man who died 18 years ealier, LEFT A RUBBER STAMP, to be placed on a pedigree produced here in 1994 or similar fabrications..

The only reason why I persued the el Deree issue so adamently was to set these bad rumors straight, produce evidence superiror to that of Exochorda, to which always is referred to in conjunction with El Deree. What the person does not realize is how deeply she insulted the Beduins and their honor. I assure you this might close any door for the person and her cronies to get any data verified. the word it out! They would be afraid that it is totally misintepreted and continous dishonor thrown on their centuries old history of breeding desert bred Arabians.

I still have a very close friendship contact with retired EAO officials and if asked can try to produce some data which could explain matters. My new friendships made in Syria with some of the most knowledgable pedigree experts in the field, together with the access to high sheikhs of numerous tribes and clans, might make it possible to also eventually throw light on Aiglon and Leila. Already have I gotten a millimeter closer.

what truly amazed me that none of these people joined the conference in Syria. Surely, if convinced that they are on the right path, they should have been there to verify. I think they knew that they would have come back with a red face.

Researchers internationally exchange data, help each other in a dignified manner, they dont lie or invent, fabricate or allow wishful thinking. And they love sharing it with those interested, helping our newcommers and beginners in research.
But also we are human and make mistakes, and when adequate data is provided, stand corrected. If we would not do this, we would lose all respect and creditability.

Again, many thanks Echo1, you just made my evening, and I know that of many, many people in this world.

Warm regards
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 19 2007, 02:04 AM
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A couple of stray pieces to tie up:

Quote Kelly: "Mashaan- according to the RAS history he went to the RAS in 1935 "
I believe that this statement is false. I do not see it anywhere in the book, nor do I see any date given in the book for when Mashaan went to the RAS. If given the page number with the exact quote I will gladly stand corrected.

Quote Kelly: "Mashaan's foal was born in 1938 out of Bint Samiha (RAS) . 1932 to 1938 is a very long pregnancy."

The implication that this was Mashaan's first foal born at the RAS is false. He sired at least 6 foals prior to that at the RAS, beginning in 1936.

1) Listed in the RAS History book, is a foal named Nagia (entry # 44), born on November 9, 1936 at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was Mashaan, the dam was Khafia.

2) Also, on April 15, 1936, a foal named Ragii was born (entry # 60) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire if this foal was also Mashaan, ther dam was Hind.

3) Also, on Dec, 12, 1936, a foal named Nagi was born (entry # 33) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, the dam was Magboura.

4) Also, on March, 12, 1937, a foal named Kasid Kheir was born (entry # 82) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, the dam was Samha.

5) Also, on March, 15, 1937, a foal named Kamar was born (entry # 29) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, the dam was Fayda.

6) Also, on April 8, 1937, a foal named Salem was born (entry #34). He was also sired by Mashaan, and ws a full brother to Nagi (entry #33).

7) Then, on Aug. 25th, 1938, a foal named Shams was born (entry # 52) at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, dam was Bint Samiha. This is the foal you referred to as the "first" foal by Mashaan born to the RAS.

There were at least three more foals sired by Mashaan in 1938.
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2mntn
post May 19 2007, 02:36 AM
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Hello,

I must say folks, that to an SE newbie like me, this is pure hell to sort out!! I don't think I have anything important to add in regard to the records, the rules and the application thereof. Which is why I am a newbie.

However, after slogging through the sarcasm and rude behavior, I think I will withhold judgment on trying to make a decision on anything SE.

I very much appreciated Kelly's calm, logical, point-by-point attempt to clarify things. And I'm left with one question as follows:

Did Dr. Branch LEAVE his "auspices" with the RAS in 1932, or did he take them with him when he left in 1932? blink.gif

Confused out here in little-person land,
Ray
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Echo1
post May 19 2007, 03:44 AM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 19 2007, 03:04 AM)
A couple of stray pieces to tie up:

Quote Kelly: "Mashaan- according to the RAS history he went to the RAS in 1935 "
I believe that this statement is false. I do not see it anywhere in the book, nor do I see any date given in the book for when Mashaan went to the RAS. If given the page number with the exact quote I will gladly stand corrected.

Quote Kelly: "Mashaan's foal was born in 1938 out of Bint Samiha (RAS) . 1932 to 1938 is a very long pregnancy."

The implication that this was Mashaan's first foal born at the RAS is false. He sired at least 6 foals prior to that at the RAS, beginning in 1936.

1) Listed in the RAS History book, is a foal named Nagia (entry # 44),  born on November 9, 1936 at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was Mashaan, the dam was Khafia.

2) Also, on  April  15, 1936,  a foal named Ragii was born (entry # 60) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire if this foal was also Mashaan, ther dam was Hind.

3) Also, on  Dec, 12, 1936,  a foal named Nagi was born (entry # 33) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, the dam was Magboura.

4) Also, on  March, 12, 1937,  a foal named Kasid Kheir was born (entry # 82) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, the dam was Samha.

5) Also, on  March, 15, 1937,  a foal named Kamar was born (entry # 29) , also at at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, the dam was Fayda.

6) Also,  on April 8, 1937, a foal named Salem was born (entry #34).  He was also sired by Mashaan, and ws a full brother to Nagi (entry #33).

7) Then, on Aug. 25th, 1938, a foal named Shams was born  (entry # 52) at the Society's Kafr Farouk stud. The sire of this foal was also Mashaan, dam was Bint Samiha. This is the foal you referred to as the "first" foal by Mashaan born to the RAS.

There were at least three more foals sired by Mashaan in 1938.
*



6 -7- 10 foals by Mashaan all born after 1932 . Are there any born in the RAS by Mashaan before 1932?
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Echo1
post May 19 2007, 04:09 AM
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Ray,
You made me smile. You have a good sense of humor. biggrin.gif
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Echo1
post May 19 2007, 04:14 AM
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Hansi,
You're welcome.
I prefer always to keep the discussion as polite as possible to exchange information in a friendly way.
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 19 2007, 04:48 AM
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Kelly said:
Regardless....it is proven that the foal was not born until 1938 which is CLEARLY the exact year.

No, see the RAS History book, or my post above for the six other foals born over the two years prior to that. But I see you've now slid away from that claim, although you said it was proven. So, proven or not? Or now it doesn't matter?

Kelly said:
"and it is also CLEARLY NOTED that Dr. Branch left the RAS in 1932. "

Really? And where is that "CLEARLY NOTED"? Is that also in the RAS History Book? If so, give us the page number because I've not seen it. If not what is your proof that Dr. Branch left the RAS in 1932? Exact source please.

You have repeatedly claimed that the RAS History book says that Mashaan went there in 1935. What page exactly is that on?
Also, before going any further with replies to your comments, I have a simple question Kelly: Do you actually have the RAS History book and Judith Forbis' Authentic Arbian Bloodstock, original volume? Yes or no? If yes, are you actually consulting them before posting here?
Caryn Rogosky
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Echo1
post May 19 2007, 12:23 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 19 2007, 05:48 AM)
Kelly said:
Regardless....it is proven that the foal was not born until 1938 which is CLEARLY the exact year.



No, see the RAS History book, or my post above for the six other foals born over the two years prior to that. But I see you've now slid  away from that claim, although you said it was proven. So, proven or not? Or now it doesn't matter? 


Al Khamsa II, page 74, under the heading Mashaan (RAS) it is clearly noting the exact year (Shams) that  the foal was born

"Shams (RAS) 1938 bm out of Bint Samiha (RAS)


Kelly said:
"and it is also CLEARLY NOTED that Dr. Branch left the RAS in 1932. "

Really? And where is that "CLEARLY NOTED"? Is that also in the RAS History Book?  If so, give us the page number because I've not seen it.  If not what is your proof  that Dr. Branch left the RAS in 1932? Exact source please.

The source was YOU.  On the SOFI website, under the webpage "Facts about SOFI horses. "  You , Caryn, have clearly noted the date of Dr Branch's retirement.  I took you at your word from your SOFI website.  You're website on SOFI facts states as follows:

"Question # 7. Why did SOFI exclude the Inshass horses, they too were pure desert bred?"

"This organization {referring to SOFI} was created to celebrate an important historic chapter in the preservation of Egyptian Arabian horses, particular original ancestors who are at the core of ALL Egyptian Arabian horses. This particular era has been defined as beginning with the importations of Mohammed Ali The Great, and ending with the retirement of Dr. Branch of the RAS around 1932."



You have repeatedly claimed that the RAS History book says that Mashaan went there in 1935. What page exactly is that on?

No, I have repeated claimed "Al Khamsa II' states the following on page 74 under the heading Mashaan 
"Forbis adds thta Mashaan was leased to the RAS after his racing career and was returned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudia Arabia.  Entry # 6075 in the Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information as the RAS HISTORY, and gives a dated of ca. 1935 , which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to the RAS "


Also, before going any further with replies to your comments, I have a  simple question Kelly: Do you actually have the RAS History book and Judith Forbis' Authentic Arbian Bloodstock, original volume? Yes or no? If yes, are you actually consulting them before posting here?

So far I have only quoted from Al Khamsa II.  I will however begin to use other sources to quote from if you would like to open the discussions further. I do not have an RAS History book, but I do have all of Judi Forbis' books as well as other books to quote from.  I will also be going to the ME and to Egypt this year to try and find some information on other horses, including Laila II (Marquata - spelling variations as well), would you care to join me?
Caryn Rogosky
*


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Caryn Rogosky
post May 19 2007, 01:13 PM
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As I thought. Kelly has been referencing, presenting statements of "fact" from, and debating the content of references sources which she does not have and/or has not consulted. This explains my growing sense that this debate has been like being stuck in a carnival fun-house where everything is distorted and out of whack. Someone who does not own or have in their posession the RAS History book, or the Authentic Arabian Bloodstock book is not prepared to debate their contents, nor are they in any position to claim tor imply that others are misstating or misrepresenting the information within these books. Only someone who does have this material, and can verify my references to them, can fully appreciate the absurdity of this situation.

There have been many statements made here by both Hansi and Kelly, and conclusions drawn on the subject of Mashaan with the clear intent to prove that he is not a qualifed SO ancestor, which are based on incorrect information, false implication, distortions and convoluted reasoning. I will not continue to debate this topic under these circumstances. Every piece of information that I have presented has been accurate and I have given my sources for them. For the sake of those who are interested in knowing what is and what is not true regarding Mashaan, I will compile a separate information sheet and inlcude my exact references for each item. Anyone who has the sources which I am referencing can then verify my statements themselves, and draw their own conclusions.
Caryn Rogosky
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 19 2007, 02:41 PM
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Ray said:

"Did Dr. Branch LEAVE his "auspices" with the RAS in 1932, or did he take them with him when he left in 1932? "


Hi Ray,
The RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch refers to the official acts of Dr. Branch on behalf of the RAS during his tenure there. So, to answer your question, because his retirement meant he would no longer be acting as an official of the RAS, yes...he did take his "auspices' with him when he left. smile.gif

While the RAS continued for a period under the direction of very qualified and dedicated Directors (prior to becoming the EAO), the end of Dr. Branch's time there marked the end of a very significant chapter in the long history of breeding in Egypt. However, while the year 1932 is a reference for the time of Dr. Branch's retirement, it is not, to my knowledge, an exact or "proven" date. As you can see, the Facts Page on the SOFI webpage does not state1932 as an exact year: "This particular era has been defined as beginning with the importations of Mohammed Ali The Great, and ending with the retirement of Dr. Branch of the RAS around 1932" This was intentionally left non-specific for good reason. There are many details pertaining to events of the early years of Egyptian breeding, including dates, which are not specifically known. For this reason all credible sources are careful to use the terms "about, around or circa (ca)" in such circumstances when exact dates are not available. However, as time goes by and bits of information do become available, more evidence is uncovered which helps to clarify some of the uncertainty in many matters. I will provide more information which I have recently come across which narrows this time frame much closer, and I'll go into more detail on that in a separate post.
Caryn Rogosky
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Echo1
post May 19 2007, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 19 2007, 02:13 PM)
As I thought. Kelly has been referencing, presenting statements of "fact" from, and debating the content of references sources which she does not have and/or has not consulted.

Al Khamsa II, was all I quoted from.  You haven't been able to get past two sentences from the Al Khamsa II.  Or the 'facts'  you have posted on your website, under the heading "FACTS ABOUT SOFI"  I did not go any further, but I can if you would like. 
The question was/is...what year did Mashaan go to the RAS, and what year did Dr Branch leave the RAS? Your defintion for a horse to be SOFI qualified is the horse must be approved  by the RAS 'under the auspices of Dr Branch "
Simply, you're dates to not match and I am asking for clarification to reconcile horses according to YOUR definition of what makes a horse SOFI. If you are the one who formed this conclusion should I ask you or should I ask someone else? 



This explains my growing sense that this debate has been  like being stuck in a carnival fun-house where everything is distorted and out of whack.

That may be your feelings.  Possibly because your story doesn't match up. 

Someone who does not own or have in their posession the RAS History book, or the Authentic Arabian Bloodstock book is not prepared to debate their contents, nor are they in any position to claim tor imply that others are misstating or misrepresenting the information within these books. Only someone who does have this material, and can verify my references to them, can fully appreciate the absurdity of this situation.

Can you please get us past Al Khamsa II and Your Website Facts before we move onto the next book? When you can, I'd be happy to move to the next book,. 

There have been many statements made here by both Hansi and Kelly, and conclusions drawn on the subject of Mashaan with the clear intent to prove that he is not a qualifed SO ancestor, which are based on incorrect information, false implication, distortions and convoluted reasoning.

No, YOU qualified him for your group, and I asked HOW, based on a defintion YOU wrote ?  THe horse is not in question, your defintion that you came up with on how you qualifed this horse is what is in question. 


I will not continue to debate this topic under these circumstances.

IAnd what circumstances are they? 

Every piece of information that I have presented has been accurate and I have given my sources for them.

Incorrect

For the sake of those who are interested in knowing what is and what is not true regarding Mashaan, I will compile a separate information sheet and inlcude my exact references for each item.

Please do.  I am one of those who is interested. Facts in full context and source. No opinion necessary until all the facts are put forth. 

Anyone who has the sources which I am referencing can then verify my statements themselves, and draw their own conclusions.

I will look forward to doing so.

Caryn Rogosky
*


Have a great day.
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HLM
post May 19 2007, 03:37 PM
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Dear Ray

There is nothing more beautiful and rewarding to me when a person wants to learn more, asks questions and continues education.

I dont think anybody knows what Dr Branch did after 1932. What I was told years ago by an EAO Director (Dr Marsafi) that he was not of good health than and helped some other local Veterinarians.There is no evidence that he continued in any way with the RAS. He aparently did not only care for Horses,but also for donkeys, cammels, water buffalos, etc.I was guest of Dr Marsafi in egypt and he visited us in Canada and we discussed many things, things I had to learn and understand.

since he was not that important of a Vet to some officials, I guess nobody really followed up. there have been many Veterinarians as head of the rAS/EAO, just like Dr abdel Alim Ashoub-head of the Animal-Breeding Section. There were numerous other renowned directors, veterinnarians etc duing the life of the RAs and EAO. Dr Zaghloul is another one, a dear old friend of mine, now taking care of the Royal Bahraini Stud in Bahrain. From him I also learned a great deal, as from Dr Mabrouk, another director of the EAO.Last time we met, the latter, was in 1998 in Cairo,Egypt during long discussions.One subject was Aiglon and Leila nobody knew anything about or even heard off. All I was told "if the horses raced they most likely returned to their homeland bought by others nobody knew anything about" .These are experienced people knowing many horses of the past and their history and most certainly that of the RAS/EAO. I also learned from Gulson's Father, grandson of A P Sherif, who knew so much of the past and proudly shared with me important information.Also he was clueless about the horses mentioned above..But so was Generale Salim El Dahda,who I aproached already in 1994 for data in Morocco..

As you can imagine, I was not there at that time, was just a year old when Dr Branch retired and all I can state is what I was told by people I learned to trust.
But some of these people alive today, even in their high 80ties still remember so much. thos in doubt should really go abroad and check things out themselves rather than relying on fantasies.

I was also told by a dear Syrian friend that it is against the honor of the beduins to change a horses name, but alright to ad a racing name. Both names are carried forward and are never changed.I guess now we have to combat another fable.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
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2mntn
post May 19 2007, 04:17 PM
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Hello Caryn,

Thank you for your response. One of my faults is making assumptions when evaluating data to build an understanding of historical events, or any other subject, for that matter.

I had assumed, given that a group of horses were designated as SO based in part upon a period of time when Dr. Branch was involved with the RAS, that Dr. Branch was a person of significance. Therefore, the actions of a person of significance would be very well known and documented - and most especially his retirement.

I also assume that Dr. Branch "brought something to the table" in terms of better documentation or more control of breeding during his tenure, which was either lost or became untrustworthy after he retired. Otherwise, the ending date for the designation would have been some years later?

Thanks again,
Ray
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 19 2007, 06:07 PM
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Ray said:
"I also assume that Dr. Branch "brought something to the table" in terms of better documentation or more control of breeding during his tenure, which was either lost or became untrustworthy after he retired. Otherwise, the ending date for the designation would have been some years later?"

Hi Ray,
Yes, you're right, he absolutely did bring something to the table, and was highly acclaimed for his impact on Arabian breeding in Egypt, and eventually throughout the world. You may know that he was the man who chose the horses for Henry Babson to import to America, and he was also the man who imported the horses from Crabbet Stud to Egypt...resulting in the breeding which produced Nazeer.

However, this importance is not related to documentation per se, and Dr. Ashoub who took his post was without question a highly credible man.of great integrity. In general, documentation was not what we are accustomed to today, but Branch was known to have kept excellent records and notes. He did, however, keep them all in English, so these were translated (into French, I believe) when Dr. Ashoub compiled these records and notes in order to produce the RAS History book in 1948, but then translated back into English again. It may be that some details were lost in the translation process, and it may also be that some actual notes and records may have been lost. But the greatest significance of Dr. Branch was of a unique philosophy, a devotion to preserving the pure Bedouin Arabian horse in Egypt, an extraordinary and diverse involvement with the Arabian horse community, and a very close relationship with the royal breeders of Egypt at that time. He was also tough and unyielding, and some people did not like his manner. Nonetheless, he was not only Director of Animal Breeding at the RAS from when it first began breeding purebred Arabians, in 1914, but he was also the President of the Jockey Club Classification Committee, Director of the Government Veterinary service, and a superb breeder in his own right. He was also very close to, and provided consultation to the Princes on the private breeding programs as well. In fact, his son was named Kemal (middle name) after Prince Kemal El Din.

There's a great deal of information on Dr. Branch published in various books, but an especially good source is the first volume of Authentic Arabian Bloodstock by Judith Forbis. She has included an 8 page tribute to him there, starting on page 101. If you have the book, you might enjoy reading this. Also, here's a bit from a letter from Jack Humphrey to W.R. Brown, written in 1932. Humphrey was at the RAS acting as an agent for Mr. Brown, and in this letter he was reporting back to him on his experiences. Humphrey writes:
"First, Dr. Branch is the highest man in his department here in Egypt. He has been here for 35 years, first under the British and then the Egyptian Government. His word is taken as law, and in cases of exportation his is the final say on any permit". Humphrey further states, "He has known the Arab horse in Egypt for this whole time and has been intimately connected with their breeding and development even longer than the Prince himself."

That's just a little slice of background on why most historians consider his retirement from the RAS to mark the end of an era; there is so much more, but I hope this at least gives you a glimpse of the significance of Dr. Branch.

Caryn Rogosky
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2mntn
post May 19 2007, 09:43 PM
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Caryn,

Thanks for taking the time for a lengthy response. biggrin.gif I'd better break out some books..

Ray
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