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> Mashaan (machaan,michan) C.1920, in regard to El Deree- SOFI
Inchallah Arabia...
post May 19 2007, 10:53 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ May 19 2007, 02:16 AM)
Researchers internationally exchange data, help each other in a dignified manner, they dont lie or invent, fabricate or allow wishful thinking. And they love sharing it with those interested, helping our newcommers and beginners in research.
But also we are human and make mistakes, and when adequate data is provided, stand corrected. If we would not do this, we would lose all respect and creditability.

Again, many thanks Echo1, you just made my evening, and I know that of many, many people in this world.

Warm regards
Hansi biggrin.gif
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Really?? Maybe I misunderstood you but you stated that : "I dont think it is fair to give you documents etc, when it took me years and fortunes to aquire them"
Please don't tell me you wish to share data with researchers when you refuse a couple of days ago to provide me with some copies... I am still hoping you will do so some day. You will have no problem to find my mailing adress I think.

Regards,
Amelie
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HLM
post May 19 2007, 11:26 PM
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Yes Ameli that is correct, we exchange data ,let each other look into some and at times even give a document copy. A qualified researcher knows what to do with data. a newcommer might not but is given details they can research on their own.
Yes I denied sending you "documents" and suggested you do your own research.
Now if you wish to come and visit me, I gladly open files for you you like to see.
It takes great experiences to properly research a foreign document, and unless one understands the language or at least the cultures, it can be, and has been totally misconstrued.

When I need or want somethjing, I go there, such as other countries or archives whereever.

some of us have given plenty of data on this forum, some has been ridiculed and even the details on the El Deree document called by one of the posters" Garbage"!!!
However, with regard to El Deree, I openly invited anybody over this forum to e-mail me, if they wish a copy by fax. that includes you my dear.

Hansi biggrin.gif
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HLM
post May 20 2007, 12:06 AM
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Dear Kelly and all

May be I can shed some light on some consusion. First of all you are correct with your statements when Mashaan started breeding at the RAS, which was in 1935,
and his first foal crop arrived in 1936.

Secondly a book referred to by someone as the History of the RAs, I can only assume that such does not exist under such name but is "
Animal-Breeding section, History of the royal Agricultural Society's Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses, authered by Dr Abdel Alim Ashoub and published in 1948, Cairo,Egypt.. We consider this "Studbook volume I" of the RAS/EAO. I have a copy.

Nowhere is Dr Branch mentioned, but Dr Ahmed Mabrouk is, former head of the Breeding section of the RAS, was delegated by their commission to study breeding methods in the Hedjaz, Nedj, Iraq and Syria. As was then as it is today that a commission of the (RAS) now EAO DECIDES WHAT TO DO OR ACCOMPLISH, WHICH THEN IS VOTED ON AND PRESENTED TO THE dIRECTOR of such animal section. It has up to date never been the authority of a "Director" ONLY. This :Horse Commission" was created for the Government of egypt in 1892 under the presidency of the late Price Omar Toussoun and is in existance today and full force todate..

.Dr Branch is consistently brought up by a poster and given authority by such he never had, nor did any director in the same position. DR Branch's name is actually mentioned nowhere I can find in books published or authered in Egypt. If there is one, please let me know, I like to buy a copy. That does not mean in any way,shape or form that Dr Branch did not do a good job. However, it stated nowhere that he actually selected breeding stock for the RAs. That would not have been his job anyway. He was to inspect livestock-horses- give his attention to treatments and sign export certificates verifying ownership of a horse for export.

Many other reliable sources have visited the EAO over the years, one is Judi Parks, who are familiar with the set-up and can give their opinion on it as well, if they like.

therefore, neither Mashaan, Nabras or any other stallion of that era has been selected by Dr Branch. Since they and El Deree were used by the RAS, selected by their committee, indeed El Deree should have been a SOFI labeled horse, if this would now matter to anybody. I also can not find any mention of Aiglon. this is what I pointed out to Walter Schimanski, and when not adheared to, cancelled my membership of SOF.

When the committe votes to have a horse run either in a purebred or non-purebred race, the conlusion is presented to the Animal Section director, who automatically, it appears, approves it. this would make sense because not always do vetenerians have expriences with certain details.and most certainly the directors do not attended then, as they dont now, such examination of horses or the voting of the a committee.Al such directors see is a piece of paper the voting results are written on. the Directors are not part of committies, otherwise it would be unethical or conflict of interest..What they are authorized to do however is to decide which mare is bred to what stallion under their jurisdiction. But that is far removed from them having the authority to aquire breeding stock on their own for the Government.

I trust that many a fabel, fantasie and wishful thinking is laid to rest and you all be guided as to the creditability of certain parties making such statements.

Hansi biggrin.gif
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Eyegor
post May 20 2007, 05:22 AM
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QUOTE (HLM @ May 20 2007, 12:26 AM)
Yes Ameli that is correct, we exchange data ,let each other look into some and at times even give a document copy. A qualified researcher knows what to do with data. a newcommer might not but is given details they can research on their own. 
Yes I denied sending you "documents" and suggested you do your own research.
Now if you wish to come and visit me, I gladly open files for you you like to see.
It takes great experiences to properly research a foreign document, and unless one understands the language or at least the cultures, it can be, and has been totally misconstrued.

When I need or want somethjing, I go there, such as other countries or archives whereever.

some of us have given plenty of data on this forum, some has been ridiculed and even the details on the El Deree document called by one of the posters" Garbage"!!!
However, with regard to El Deree, I openly invited anybody over this forum to e-mail me, if they wish a copy by fax. that includes you my dear.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
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I have really tried hard to refrain from posting here but finally you have succeeded in yet again putting words in my mouth?

Hansi, I most certainly hope you are not refering to me when you allege that one poster called the "new information Garbage" for if you did, I would consider that a misrepresentation of what I said. That of course then would make you a liar, would it not.

There you go again, leave it alone, no one gives a rat's patoot about what you preach don't you get it?????? You talk out of both sides of your mouth......not a single thing you have said so far can be proven by any research material, I would just like to know what your sources are, quote them please, so that we can see your reasoning. No you won't, your answer is do your own research. I can see you are really trying to educate????? Instead, you keep dribbling vitriolic, vindictive garbage out of your craw. Like I said on anotherthread, you answer questions with questions and instead of proving your opinions you simply to besmirch horses, people and anyone who does not agree. You are truly a class act, does Kindergarten sound about right?
Dear God, don't you have any selfrespect?
Laecherlich, absolut laecherlich.....bissig, bissig, you should be prevented from posting..you leave only wreckage in your wake......
have a nice day
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 20 2007, 05:48 AM
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Facts On Mashaan:

There are numerous research sources available for information on Michaan. Amongst them are:
AK1 and AKII

Authentic Arabian Bloodstock (original volume), three sections:
1.Article from 1970 titled, "Two Sheikh's And a Pasha" Page 127. This iinlcudes a personal interview by Judith Forbis with Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, who brought Mashaan to Egypt, trained him, raced him, and leased him to the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch.
2. Judith Foris and Gusun Sherif 1968 Interview with Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek. Page 134, referenced by Al Khamsa.
3. Jockey Club records at back of book for Mashaan

RAS HISTORY, published in 1948.

Of these three major resources, only one offers personal and first hand accounts of the circumstances surrounding the horse, and that is Authentic Arabian Bloodstock by Judith Forbis. That personal and first hand information was from the man who owned Mashaan, brought him to Egypt, trained him, raced him and leased him to the RAS. There are two articles, two different pages.

From the article on page 127 (see details above), the exact quote from Judith Forbis:
""Regardless, the Sheykh purchased him, and though weak from neglect the horse improved with good care, and under Sheykh Abdul Aziz's training won his first race by ten lengths-- among other races. When he retired MASHANN from the track, twelve wins to his credit, the Royal agricultural Society -- then managed by Dr. Branch -- leased the horse for a time and used him at stud. Later MAASHAN was given to Prince Faysal of Saudi Arabia as a gift from the Sheykh."

From the second article, Page 134
of Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, J. Forbis, taken from an interivew of Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, conducted by Judith Forbis and Gusun Sherif. Quote Sheikh Abdul Aziz himself: "Michaan was in weak condition when I bought him, but after training he won his first race by 10 lengths. When he finished his racing career I leased him to the Royal Agricultural Society. Eventually my brother took Michaan back from Society and gave him to Prince Feisul of Saudi Arabia. Mischann was the purest of the pure"

No date is given in either of these interviews with Sheikh Abdul Aziz, who obviously had a clear recollection of the details surround his involvement with this horse, for the year that Mashaan was leased to the RAS. What is given is a very distinct detail, and that is that the Sheikh leased him to the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch. It's right there in black and white. One would think that the owner of the horse would have had direct communications with the man who was in charge of aquiring stallions for the RAS...and there would be absolutely no reason to think that the Sheikh would say that it was Dr. Branch if it was not Dr. Branch.

Al Khamsa I, page 75: "MASHAAN: The tribal information is from an article in the February, 1970, Arabian Horse World, "Two Sheikhs and a Pasha," by Judith Forbis, quoting Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, brother of Sheikh Fawzan El Sabk. The article adds that Mashaan was returned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabian." (This article is the same one which appears in Authentic Arabian Bloodstock page 134.)
Note that no date is given here for when Mashaan went to the RAS.

Al Khamsa II, page 74: "MASHAAN: a ca. 1925 bay Kuhaylan-Ajuz stallion imported prior to 1928 to Egypt, where he was owned by Sheikh FawzanEl Sabek of Dawasir, Saudi Arabian Minister in Cairo. Aslo spelled Michaan. Notes: The above information is from the RAS History p. 29"
(Note that there is no reference to a date given in the RAS History here).
"An interview with Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, brother of Sheikh Farwzan El Sabek, (Saudi Arabian minister to Cairo) as published in Judith Forbis Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, p. 134 says that he (Sheikh Abdul Aziz) had purchased and imported Mashaan to Egypt. He further is quoted as saying that Mashaan was from the El Jibur tribe of the Shammar near Deyr as was his sire. Forbis adds that Mashaan was leased to the RAS afer his racing career and was terturned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabia. Enty # 6075 in Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information as the RAS History, and gives a date of ca. 1935, which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to he RAS."

Note again that Al Khamsa does not say that Judith Forbis gives the date of 1935, nor do they say that the RAS gives the date as 1935. They say that the Raswan Index shows the date as circa 1935. , which is an indefinite date. I do not have the Carl Raswan Index to check his entry

Obviously to all, the term "circa" is universally used to indicate and understood to mean an approximate date. Quote Al Khamsa I, on page 62 I, under FOUNDATION HORSES:
"Circa dates should not be considerd exact in any way; they are merely a guide"

The RAS History book P.29;
"Michaan, a oheilan Ajouz, belonging to H.E. Sheikh Fawzan El Sabek, former Minister of Saudi Arabia; it won 12 races." That's it. No date whatsoever given.

SOFI gives the date of Dr. Branch's retirement as "around 1932", it is not specifically stated as such. The exact date of Dr. Branch's retirement is unknown as of now. We do know that he facilitated the Babson importation in 1932, we also know that he was there and in charge when Jack Humphrey wrote the letter to W.R. Brown in 1932.

I have also come across this letter (portion of a letter)r, published in the article, ARABIAN BLOOD FOR STAMINA, Keene Richards' Own Account of His Two Desert Expeditions and His Arabian Importations.Edited by Thornton Chard:

"------amongst the Bedouin Arabs 15 hands is the normal maximum for the pure-bred. Anything over that is a phenomenal posability. The valuable and useful horse is normally 14.3. I stress that and ------------any horse exceeding 15 hands can only be found in conditions inconsistent with Bedouin life." From a letter December 20, 1933 to T.C. from Dr. A.E.Branch, Senior member of the Egyptian Jockey Club and late President of the Classification Committee."
Reference, http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates...KROwnAcnt2.html
I do not know whether the letter was written during Dr. Branch's tenure or shortly after retirement. One can only make a best guess..It would appear to me that this was possibly just prior to his retirement, as he is referred to as the Senior Member of the Jockey Club (present) as well as "late" President of the Clasification Committee.

I have also found information which places Dr. Branch back in England as of March, 1935, as he is listed as one of the judges in an Arabian horse show which ws held in London.
Reference: The Journal Of The Arab Horse Society, 1935-1938, page 223.

Based on what I gather at this point, the window of time for when Dr. Branch retired from the RAS would have been after the Babson imports in 1932, after the Jack Humphrey letter in 1932, and before he is recorded as being in London in March of 1935. He may still have been there for part of 1933, when he wrote the letterto "T.C."

Readers are encouraged to please verify the information and references I have provided, and to draw their own conclusions.

SOFI accepts that Maashan was aquired by the RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch, and is a qualified root horse based on its criteria for inclusion.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Caryn Rogosky

This post has been edited by Caryn Rogosky: May 20 2007, 06:37 AM
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 20 2007, 06:04 AM
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Quote Hansi,
"Dear Kelly and all
May be I can shed some light on some consusion. First of all you are correct with your statements when Mashaan started breeding at the RAS, which was in 1935,
and his first foal crop arrived in 1936.'


There is no confusion on my part. However, that is probably because I have the books in my posession from which I quote and reference in my statements, and I consult them carefully before doing so. Despite all of the accusations that have been hurled at me, every bit of information that I have provided has been accurate and backed up with specific references.

I provided all of the data on the six Mashaan foals born from 1936 . Kelly mentioned none of these foals, but repeatedly named only one foal, stating multiple times that it was born in 1938,and adding that from 1932 to 1938 is a "very long pregnancy'. Now, what exactly would the intended implication of that statement be?

I cannot say with certainty what year Mashaan "started breeding" at the RAS, and neither can you because this specific information is not recorded and not available to my knowledge.

Quote Hansi":
"Secondly a book referred to by someone as the History of the RAs, I can only assume that such does not exist under such name but is "
Animal-Breeding section, History of the royal Agricultural Society's Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses, authered by Dr Abdel Alim Ashoub and published in 1948, Cairo,Egypt.. We consider this "Studbook volume I" of the RAS/EAO. I have a copy."


???? Pardon? This book is and has been known as the RAS History since it was published in 1948. It is referred to as such in all major research materials and is cross referenced as same by such organizations as Al Khamsa. It was later adopted by the EAO and incorporated into the official general Studbook as Volume I, but was not initially meant to serve as an official general studbook. From the RAS History, Introduction, Quote H.E. Fouad Pasha Abasza, Member of Governing Body, Director-General, (1948) :
"The value of this book lies in the fact that [B]an official genral Stud-book of Arab horses in Egypt does not exist yet, and until such a book is formed, the Royal Agricultal Society's Stud-book will remain unique." [/b]

Caryn Rogosky
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Echo1
post May 20 2007, 12:40 PM
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JOE,
You Stated:

"I have really tried hard to refrain from posting here but finally you have succeeded in yet again putting words in my mouth?

Hansi, I most certainly hope you are not refering to me when you allege that one poster called the "new information Garbage" for if you did, I would consider that a misrepresentation of what I said. That of course then would make you a liar, would it not."


QUOTE (Eyegor @ May 14 2007, 11:17 PM)
You know MZ Melnyck,
you are truly pitiful, what on earth does any of this ElDeree earth shaking new garbage  have to do with SO or Exochorda at all?
*



From the El Deree thread. May 14.
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Echo1
post May 20 2007, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE (Inchallah Arabians @ May 19 2007, 11:53 PM)
Really?? Maybe I misunderstood you but you stated that : "I dont think it is fair to give you documents etc, when it took me years and  fortunes to aquire them"
Please don't tell me you wish to share data with researchers when you refuse a couple of days ago to provide me with some copies... I am still hoping you will do so some day. You will have no problem to find my mailing adress I think.

Regards,
Amelie
*



Hi Amelie,

I have a copy of the Hujjay on El Deree, and it's trasnslation if you would like from me to send it to you. you are also welcome to whatever information I have on the horses. I hope to meet you at Salon and I'll remember to make copies for you and either bring them or mail them to you before then.

Have a great day. Best wishes.
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HLM
post May 20 2007, 01:12 PM
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Dear Kimberly

May I come back to the entries of Al Khamsa. As you know I have great respect for the work they have done and are doing, but we do need to remember that also they have made errors. I dont believe any of their researchers have ever been at the EAO and information released by them concerning the rAs/EAO is basically based on hearsay.

The subject is Dr Branch in this regard, and neither one of us, including Judi Forbis ever met the man. He died before even Judi got to the Middle East I think.

Those of us who had close contact with the eAO and their Directors have been made aware of their functions and authorities.Each one had certain authorities only, but none extended to the aquisition or leasing of breeding stock. Such was left to the "Horse Committee" and still is. Of course supervision was part of their job.

In 1973 I spent every afternoon for three weeks with sayyed Marei, Albadeia stud, while during the mornings with the eAO and at dinner with numerous officials and renowned parties. He also educated me in numerous matters of what the RAS/EAO stood for, while he tried to learn from me what actually "Blue List,etc" stands for and means. He, as most Middle East breeders never heard of it before.
Sayyed Marei was influencial with the EAO, being the Secretary General for the Socialistic party at that time. He indeed saved many valuable bloodlines from the eAO when the Government toppled and Nasser took over. Not once did I hear him talk of Dr Branch either. Matter of fact each time another Director took over, such assumed full authority not letting earlier ones intervene. I feel certain That Dr Nasr and Gulson Sherif as well as Fatma Hamza can give even more comments.

I had friendship with Dr Marsafi and other directors and also they taught me a great deal. It was he who gave me what is considered "Volume !" of their stud book
I referred to earlier. It was not referred to as "History of the RAS" as such- not then, not now to the best of my re-collection. This publication has the heading of " The Royal Agricultural Society" under the Distinguished Patronage OF HIS MAJESTY THE KING FAROUK I" -founded in 1898.- plus the details I already provided for in my earlier post. In it are details which could be quickly misintepreted by those unfamiliar with the Arab cultures or their translation into english. I believe Judi Forbis declined accepting many of the first pages out of her consideration for the SE definition. Checking with her would be the thing to do for those interested why she felt it was necessary..

I maintain, that hearsay is one thing, going to the source and ascertaining data another. Many a new thing have now also been discovered through the Syria
venture (WAHO) possibly one of the most educating experiences ever, at least for me.

all have a grand day
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Echo1
post May 20 2007, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 20 2007, 06:48 AM)
Facts On Mashaan:

There are numerous research sources available for information on Michaan. Amongst them are:
AK1 and AKII

Yes , which Al Khamsa 11 gives the date of 1935 for Mashaan going to the RAS

Authentic Arabian Bloodstock (original volume), three sections:
1.Article from 1970 titled, "Two Sheikh's And a Pasha" Page 127. This iinlcudes a personal interview by Judith Forbis with Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, who brought Mashaan to Egypt, trained him, raced him, and leased him to the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch.

WHERE does it say , 'please quote' that the horse was leased to the RAS under the auspices of Dr Branch on page 127.

2. Judith Foris and Gusun Sherif 1968 Interview with Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek. Page 134, referenced by Al Khamsa.


Actually on page 57 of Al Khamsa II, it states under the heading of El Deree " On page 134, {Referring to Authentic Arabian Bloodstock} , Sheikh Abdul-Aziz El-Sabek, a Dawasir living in Egypt, is quoted on 9/25/1968 as saying that El Deree was from Hussein El Dere from the 'El Jibur' tribe in what is present-day Syria.


3. Jockey Club records at back of book for Mashaan

RAS HISTORY, published in 1948.

Of these three major resources, only one offers personal and first hand accounts of the circumstances surrounding the horse, and that is Authentic Arabian Bloodstock by Judith Forbis. That personal and first hand information was from the man who owned Mashaan, brought him to Egypt, trained him, raced him and leased him to the RAS. There are two articles, two different pages.



From the article on page 127 (see details above), the exact quote from Judith Forbis: 
""Regardless, the Sheykh purchased him, and though weak from neglect the horse improved with good care, and under Sheykh Abdul Aziz's training won his first race by ten lengths-- among other races. When he retired MASHANN from the track, twelve wins to his credit, the Royal agricultural Society -- then managed by Dr. Branch -- leased the horse for a time and used him at stud. Later MAASHAN was given to Prince Faysal of Saudi Arabia as a gift from the Sheykh."



[B]So are we correct then to think tht when Mashaan went to the RAS in 1935 Dr Branch was still there?  Are to to also think then Dr Branch approved El Deree as well, since El Deree went to the RAS in 1934?


From the second article, Page 134[/b] of Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, J. Forbis, taken from an interivew of Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, conducted by Judith Forbis and Gusun  Sherif. Quote Sheikh Abdul Aziz himself: "Michaan was in weak condition when I bought him, but after training he won his first race by 10 lengths. When he finished his racing career I leased him to the Royal  Agricultural Society. Eventually my brother took Michaan back from Society and gave him to Prince Feisul of Saudi Arabia. Mischann was the purest of the pure"

Both Mishaan and El Deree are from the "El Jibour' tribe.

No date is given in either of these interviews with Sheikh Abdul Aziz, who obviously had a clear recollection of the details surround his involvement with this horse, for the year that Mashaan was leased to the RAS.  What is given is a very distinct detail, and that is that the Sheikh leased him to the RAS under the management of Dr. Branch. It's right there in black and white. One would think that the owner of the horse would have had direct communications with the man who was in charge of aquiring stallions for the RAS...and there would be absolutely no reason to think that the Sheikh would say that it was Dr. Branch if it was not Dr. Branch.

Again, if Mashaan and Dr Branch were both at the RAS at the same time, it would be important for you to note that Mishaan and El Deree were at the RAS at the SAME TIME

Al Khamsa I, page 75: "MASHAAN: The tribal information is from an article in the February, 1970, Arabian Horse World, "Two Sheikhs and a Pasha," by Judith Forbis, quoting Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, brother of Sheikh Fawzan El Sabk. The article adds that Mashaan was returned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabian." (This article is the same one which appears in Authentic Arabian Bloodstock page 134.)
Note that no date is given here for when Mashaan went to the RAS.



Al Khamsa II, page 74: "MASHAAN: a ca. 1925 bay Kuhaylan-Ajuz stallion imported prior to 1928 to Egypt, where he was owned by Sheikh FawzanEl Sabek of Dawasir, Saudi Arabian Minister in Cairo. Aslo spelled Michaan. Notes: The above information  is from the RAS History p. 29"
(Note that there is no reference to a date given in the RAS History here).
"An interview with Sheikh Abdul Aziz El Sabek, brother of Sheikh Farwzan El Sabek, (Saudi Arabian minister to Cairo) as published in Judith Forbis Authentic Arabian Bloodstock, p. 134 says that he (Sheikh Abdul Aziz) had purchased and imported Mashaan to Egypt. He further is quoted as saying that Mashaan was from the El Jibur tribe of the Shammar near Deyr as was his sire.

As was El Deree...see hujjay from El Deree thread, also note Al Khamsa II page 57 under the heading El Deree that El Deree is f rom El Jibour tribe

Forbis adds that Mashaan was leased to the RAS afer his racing career and was terturned to the stud of Prince Faisal in Saudi Arabia. Enty # 6075 in Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information as the RAS History, and gives a date of ca. 1935, which would have been correct for the time Mashaan went to he RAS."

Note again that Al Khamsa does not say that Judith Forbis gives the date of 1935, nor do they say that the RAS gives the date as 1935.

Al Khamsa II states in page 74 under the heading Mashaan (RAS)  in Carl Raswan's Index shows the same information as the RAS History, and gives a date of ca. 1935, which would have been CORRECT for the time Mashaan went to the RAS

Carl Raswan's Index, page 419 States : Mashaan, a Kuhaylan-'Ajuz stallion (about 1935) from the racing stable of Shaykh Fauzan AsSaek, Minister of Sa'udi Arabia in Cairo, Egypt. . Al Khamsa is stating the date was given by Raswan, and does match the RAS History and Al Khamsa II states this would have been correct. 



They say that the Raswan Index shows the date as circa 1935. , which is an indefinite  date. I do not have the Carl Raswan Index to check his entry

It means 'on or about' which means on that year or about that year. It doesn't mean being off by 6 years or that long.  He did not go the the RAS until he retired from RACING.  His last race was in 1935 according to Jockey Club Egypt, Records..  His first foals were born in 1936. Raswan states he went in (about 1935), Al Khamsa II states according to all this info, the date of (1935) would have been correct.



Obviously to all, the term "circa" is universally used to indicate and understood to mean an approximate date. Quote Al Khamsa I, on page 62  I, under FOUNDATION HORSES:
"Circa dates should not be considerd exact in any way; they are merely a guide"

Correct, a circa date gives an estimate.  However, when the Al Khamsa 'adds to this that the circa date' would be correct' I think they are saying that 'although' Raswan gives an estimate' his estimate is correct.

The RAS History book P.29;
"Michaan, a oheilan Ajouz, belonging to H.E. Sheikh Fawzan El Sabek, former Minister of Saudi Arabia; it won 12 races." That's it. No date whatsoever given.



SOFI gives the date of Dr. Branch's retirement as "around 1932", it is not specifically stated as such. The exact date of Dr. Branch's retirement is unknown as of now. We do know that he facilitated the Babson importation in 1932, we also know that he was there and in charge when Jack Humphrey wrote the letter to W.R. Brown in 1932.


Yes your website does state that Dr Branch Retired AROUND 1932,  But guess what it also states?

Fouad made a tremendous contribution to the preservation of Asil Arabian horses when he donated his desert-bred stallion, El Dere, to the RAS/EAO in 1934.

Now, what say you?  


I have also come across this letter (portion of a letter)r, published in the article, ARABIAN BLOOD FOR STAMINA, Keene Richards' Own Account of His Two Desert Expeditions and His Arabian Importations.Edited by Thornton Chard:

  "------amongst the Bedouin Arabs 15 hands is the normal maximum for the pure-bred. Anything over that is a phenomenal posability. The valuable and useful horse is normally 14.3. I stress that and ------------any horse exceeding 15 hands can only be found in conditions inconsistent with Bedouin life." From a letter December 20, 1933 to T.C. from Dr. A.E.Branch, Senior member of the Egyptian Jockey Club and late President of the Classification Committee."

Great. El Deree was on the track, from 1924-1927, during the 'auspices' of Dr Branch. Senior Member of the Egyptian Jockey Club. and late President of the Classification Committee


Reference, http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates...KROwnAcnt2.html
I do not know whether the letter was written during Dr. Branch's tenure or shortly after retirement. One can only make a best guess..It would appear to me that this was possibly just prior to his retirement, as he is referred to as the Senior Member of the Jockey Club (present) as well as "late" President of the Clasification Committee.

I have also found information which places Dr. Branch back in England as of March, 1935, as he is listed as one of the judges in an Arabian  horse show which ws held in London.
  Reference: The Journal Of The Arab Horse Society, 1935-1938, page 223.

Based on what I gather at this point, the window of time for when Dr. Branch retired from the RAS would have been after the Babson imports in 1932, after the Jack Humphrey letter in 1932, and before he is recorded as being in London in March of 1935. He may still have been there for part of 1933, when he wrote the letterto "T.C."

Well, he was in London in March of 1935, and Mishaan was racing on the track in 1935, and did not go to the RAS until AFTER he finished racing.

Readers are encouraged to please verify the information and references I have provided, and to draw their own conclusions.

SOFI accepts that Maashan was aquired by the RAS under the auspices of Dr. Branch, and is a qualified root horse based on its criteria for inclusion.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Caryn Rogosky
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The facts as you present them are interesting. However, you should take the time now to look at El Deree and Nabras as well. I will follow up with a post on facts in chronological order.
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Echo1
post May 20 2007, 02:50 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 20 2007, 07:04 AM)
Quote Hansi,
"Dear Kelly and all
May be I can shed some light on some consusion. First of all you are correct with your statements when Mashaan started breeding at the RAS, which was in 1935,
and his first foal crop arrived in 1936.'


There is no confusion on my part. However, that is probably because I have the books in my posession from which I quote and reference in my statements, and I consult them carefully before doing so. Despite all of the accusations that have been hurled at me, every bit of information that I have provided has been accurate and backed up with specific references.

I  provided all of the data on the six Mashaan foals born from 1936 . Kelly mentioned none of these foals, but repeatedly named only one foal, stating multiple times that it was born in 1938,and adding that from 1932 to 1938 is a "very long pregnancy'. Now, what exactly would  the intended implication of that statement be?


I didn't need to mention them all, because quite simply, they are ALL after he retired from the track. The intened gist of this is that...Dr Branch (according to you) left the RAS before Mishaans foals were documented with birthdates from the RAS.

I cannot say with certainty what year Mashaan "started breeding" at the RAS, and neither can you because this specific information is not recorded and not available to my knowledge.

WHAT?  YOU listed all his foals and gave specific birthdates. Are you calling yourself to question? 
ALL his foals that YOU listed and YOU  gave specific birthdates, all of which YOU provided for us here on this forum, All of which I might add were after 1935 when he left the track.  All of which was after Dr Branch left the RAS according to your website under FACTS on SOFI.  I am pointing out the inconsistancies in your "under the auspices of Dr Branch' theory of including/excluding horses. Basically it looks to me as if you excluded EL Deree INCORRECTLY based on how you included such as Mashaan and Nabras.


Quote Hansi":
[i]"Secondly a book referred to by someone as the History of the RAs, I can only assume that such does not exist under such name but is "
Animal-Breeding section, History of the royal Agricultural Society's Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses, authered by Dr Abdel Alim Ashoub and published in 1948, Cairo,Egypt.. We consider this "Studbook volume I" of the RAS/EAO. I have a copy."[

???? This book is and  has been known as the RAS History since it was published in 1948. It is referred to as such in all major research materials and is cross referenced as same by such organizations as Al Khamsa. It was later adopted by the EAO and incorporated into the official general Studbook as Volume I,  but was not initially meant to serve as an official general studbook. From the RAS History, Introduction, Quote H.E. Fouad Pasha Abasza, Member of Governing Body, Director-General, (1948) :
"The value of this book lies in the fact that [B]an official genral Stud-book of Arab horses in Egypt does not exist yet, and until such a book is formed, the Royal Agricultal Society's Stud-book will remain unique." [/b]


Caryn Rogosky
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Abbasiyah
post May 20 2007, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ May 20 2007, 01:06 AM)
Dear Kelly and all

May be I can shed some light on some consusion. First of all you are correct with your statements when Mashaan started breeding at the RAS, which was in 1935,
and his first foal crop arrived in 1936.

Secondly a book referred to by someone as the History of the RAs, I can only assume that such does not exist under such name but is "
Animal-Breeding section, History of the royal Agricultural Society's Stud of Authentic Arabian Horses, authered by Dr Abdel Alim Ashoub and published in 1948, Cairo,Egypt.. We consider this "Studbook volume I" of the RAS/EAO. I have a copy.

Nowhere is Dr Branch mentioned, but  Dr Ahmed Mabrouk is, former head of the Breeding section of the RAS, was delegated by their commission to study breeding methods in the Hedjaz, Nedj, Iraq and Syria. As was then as it is today that a commission of the (RAS) now EAO DECIDES WHAT TO DO OR ACCOMPLISH, WHICH THEN IS VOTED ON AND PRESENTED TO THE dIRECTOR of such animal section. It has up to date never been the authority of a "Director" ONLY.  This :Horse Commission" was created for the Government of egypt in 1892 under the presidency of the late Price Omar Toussoun and is in existance today and full force todate..

.Dr Branch is consistently brought up by a poster and given authority by such he never had, nor did any director in the same position. DR Branch's name is actually mentioned nowhere I can find in books published or authered in Egypt. If there is one,  please let me know, I like to buy a copy. That does not mean in any way,shape or form that Dr Branch did not do a good job. However, it stated nowhere that he actually selected breeding stock  for the RAs. That would not have been his job anyway. He was to inspect livestock-horses- give his attention to treatments and sign export certificates verifying ownership of a horse for export.

Many other reliable sources have visited the EAO over the years, one is Judi Parks, who are familiar with the set-up and can give their opinion on it as well, if they like.

therefore, neither Mashaan, Nabras or any other stallion of that era has been selected by Dr Branch. Since they and El Deree were used by the RAS, selected by their committee, indeed El Deree should have been a SOFI labeled horse, if this would now matter to anybody. I also can not find any mention of Aiglon. this is what I pointed out to Walter Schimanski, and when not adheared to, cancelled my membership of SOF.

When the committe votes to have a horse run either in a purebred or non-purebred race, the conlusion is presented to the Animal Section director, who automatically, it  appears, approves it. this would make sense because not always do vetenerians have expriences with certain details.and most certainly the directors do not attended then, as they dont now, such examination of horses or the voting of the a committee.Al such directors see is a piece of paper the voting results are written on. the Directors are not part of committies, otherwise it would be unethical or conflict of interest..What they are authorized to do however is to decide which mare is bred to what stallion under their jurisdiction. But that is far removed from them having the authority to aquire breeding stock on their own for the Government.

I trust that many a fabel, fantasie and wishful thinking is laid to rest and you all be guided as to the creditability of certain parties making such statements.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity arabian Farms
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*



Hello Hansi,

While I do not presume to be a researcher by any stretch of anyone's imagination I have visted the EAO many times and have met and visited with Dr. Marsafi, Dr. Zaghloul and Dr. Soliman as well as the current Director and I have discussed many, many horses with all. It has always been stated to me that any decisions to be made about breeding have to be presented to the committee. When I asked Dr. Zaghloul to breed Ramiah to Hafid Anter he told me that he would present it to the committee and let me know. The same thing happened when I requested that Dr. Soliman breed the Hafid daughter (the result of the first request, "Rayah") to Al Aneed, the committee had to decide. Even when I asked if I could buy something it was up to the committee to decide what was for sale. There was even an argument one day in Dr. Zaghloul's office between Dr. Zaghloul and Dr. Helmy over the fact that Dr. Zaghloul thought that I should have one colt to bring back to the U.S. and Dr. Helmy didn't want to sell the colt!! Lots of very loud conversation and hand gestures laugh.gif The committee later on decided that the colt could be sold in the export auction but I was not able to get there in time and this colt went to Sheikha Lulula smile.gif

All breeding decisions have been made by the committee and still are being made this way today to my knowledge. I have attached an old black and white photo of the members of the board of the RAS when the board was first established. Vol 1 of the stud book.

Both Dr. Branch and General von Szandtner were utilized to help set up and improve the RAS breeding but neither had carte blanch in what happened or what was bred.

Judi
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Eyegor
post May 20 2007, 03:04 PM
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Oh Boy Kelly,
It is interesting how you twist facts via smoke just like the person you are now, all of a sudden, trying to imitate. I feel you should find someone else to emulate. ( a positive role model comes to mind instantly for me, try Ms Forbis).
It seems you are of the same ilk as nother vindictive poster.....
That is a real shame...
Regards??!!
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HLM
post May 20 2007, 03:22 PM
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Dear Judi

I know that you vitited the eAO various times and took valuable photos of many of the mares/breeding stock.Another person very familiar with the EAO is Denny Barbary, a very knowledgable breeder and equestrian and a good old friend..

Why I and others are taking statements of a certain party apart is, that such party has never been in the middle east, relies totally of what has been printed, overlooking corections, and concluding into fantasies.

Such fantasies are confusing our newcommers or those who wish to enter the field of research. Can you imagine if they would rely on statements coming from people never seen herd/breeding record books at the source, never went through an archive or came ever close to any of the breeding stock of the EAO and then decide who did what and when in their own intrepitation, based on personal motives.

It does not cost an arm and a leg to fly over there, spent days to research and then conclude or talk intelligently about detrimental matters.

As I stated before I cancelled my membership with SOF after I realized that
for personal motives/reasons/marketing, horses were selected into their rooster and others fitting into it left out, basically to make sure only a small number of horses are contained under such label. That was a foolish thing to do, makes reasons for such label highly obvious and with it SOF/SOFi lost in my opinion any and all creditability. When I look at an organization, I look at the head of the organization. Based on such creditability is either there or not. therefore everybody can conclude for themselves.

I think we are blessed, that we old timers are still alive and can share our experiences, knowledge and opinions openly, honestly and fair to all.

The collection of photos you have Judi is priceless.Your experiences as that of others very valuable. Such, when exposed, always co-incide, so it is not just one party who shares, but many others alive still can.

Al Khamsa made errors and when confronted corrected. So have I. We are human.
But neither one creates fantasies, writes novels and does wishfull thinking to suit a personal motive/purposes. that simply is not our style nor the purpose of preservation..

Have a grand day and thank you.
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms



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Echo1
post May 20 2007, 03:31 PM
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Judi,

Thank you for posting this information. As it was explained to me by someone who raced horses on the track in Egypt, and has spent much time at the EAO/El Zahraa, this was the process and all was under a committee. No carte blanche as you say .
Thank you for verifying this information for us.
Have a great day.
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