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> Mashaan (machaan,michan) C.1920, in regard to El Deree- SOFI
Eyegor
post May 20 2007, 03:39 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ May 20 2007, 04:22 PM)
Dear Judi

I know that you vitited the eAO various times and took valuable photos of many of the mares/breeding stock.Another person very familiar with the EAO is Denny Barbary, a very knowledgable breeder and equestrian and a good old friend..

Why I and others are taking statements of a certain party apart is, that such party has never been in the middle east, relies totally of what has been printed, overlooking corections, and concluding into fantasies.

Such fantasies are confusing our newcommers or those who wish to enter the field of research. Can you imagine if they would rely on statements coming from people never seen herd/breeding record books at the source, never went through an archive or came ever close to any of the breeding stock of the EAO and then decide who did what and when in their own intrepitation, based on personal motives.

It does not cost an arm and a leg to fly over there, spent days to research and then conclude or talk intelligently about detrimental matters.

As I stated before I cancelled my membership with SOF after I realized that
for personal motives/reasons/marketing, horses were selected into their rooster and others fitting into it left out, basically to make sure only a small number of horses are contained under such label. That was a foolish thing to do, makes reasons for such label highly obvious and with it SOF/SOFi lost in my opinion any and all creditability. When I look at an organization, I look at the head of the organization. Based on such creditability is either there or not. therefore everybody can conclude for themselves.

I think we are blessed, that we old timers are still alive and can share our experiences, knowledge and opinions openly, honestly and fair to all.

The collection of photos you have Judi is priceless.Your experiences as that of others very valuable. Such, when exposed, always co-incide, so it is not just one party who shares, but many others alive still can.

Al Khamsa made errors and when confronted corrected. So have I. We are human.
But neither one creates fantasies, writes novels and does wishfull thinking to suit a personal motive/purposes. that simply is not our style nor the purpose of preservation..

Have a grand day and thank you.
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
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*


Do you actually believe what you just wrote????? So going to the middle east is your criteria of being a topnotch researcher???? The reason you argue with Caryn is because you feel she is misrepresenting what and promoting her own horses??????? She really doesn't have any anymore, you're barking up the wrong tree if that is your intent, you silly selfish old broad. I don't care where you've been, you are the best example of a researcher who twists findings into an avenue that suits yourselves. If you belittle all written information so much, why do you quote it. It's OK for you to use it but not if anyone else does. Don't you see how silly your argument is. Please give me strength.
Please, have your Friends et El Zahra send us an on-line affidavid with endorsement of your credibility....you drop names, but in truth none of those are actually friends of yours. Anyone who knows you sooner or later gets bitten and this forum is the centerpiece for your destructiveness. Keep the "Garbage" coming and I'm not talking about ElDeree.......Do yourself a favor as well, before you post again, try doing without a Highball in your hands, Your thoughts are so disorganized you just have to be "blottoed". No sober person would post in that manner...

Oliver, HILFE, Bitte, Hilfe
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Echo1
post May 20 2007, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (Eyegor @ May 20 2007, 04:39 PM)
Do you actually believe what you just wrote????? So going to the middle east is your criteria of being a topnotch researcher???? The reason you argue with Caryn is because you feel she is misrepresenting what and promoting her own horses???????  She really doesn't have any anymore, you're barking up the wrong tree if that is your intent, you silly selfish old broad. I don't care where you've been, you are the best example of a researcher who twist findings into an avenue that suits yourselves. If you belittle all written information so much, why do you quote it. It's OK for you to use it but not if everyone else does. Don't you see how silly your argumant is. Please give me strength.
Please have your Friends et El Zahra send us an on-line affidavid awith endorsement of your credibility....you driop names but in truth none of those are actually friends of yours. Anyone who knows you sooner or later gets bitten and this forum is the centerpiece for your destructiveness.  Keep the "Garbage" coming and I'm not talking about ElDeree.......Do yourself a favor as well, before you post again, try doing without a Highball in your hands, Your thoughts are so disorganized you just have to be "blottoed".  No sober person would post in that manner...

Oliver, HILFE, Bitte, Hilfe
*



Joseph,
May I suggest to you that you walk away from this conversation. Post 52 speaks for itself. You are in no position to demand anything from EAO or anyone from the Middle East as you thank and compliment Mohamed in one breath and then in the next refer to the hujjay and it's translation as 'earth shaking garbage' which I find to be HIGHLY disrespectful. Go cool your jets, and refrain from posts such as above which are rude, disrespectful and inappropriate.


I hope everyone can see this is just an attempt by Joe to have this thread locked if he can start a personal attack on someone. I hope this thread can continue with giving quoted facts and a proper discussion of facts which are exempt of Joe's emotional outbursts.
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2mntn
post May 20 2007, 04:44 PM
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Anyone interested,

My wife and I were married in 1968. In the home of her parents was a proud possession - a set of Encylopedia Britannica. After my tour of duty in the Army (1968-71), my wife and I left her home town and set out on our own. Her parents gave us that set of books to take with us, expecting that their grandchildren would find them useful.

Our children reached the ages where research was required for school assignments. Imagine our dismay when we discovered that the treasured set of Encylopedia were so outdated as to be virtually useless as reference material.

I don't know how many revisions have been made to the Encylopedia Britannica over the years. I do know that they were on the 11th edition in 1911. My point is this - knowledge is not static, but ever changing. When published facts are found to be incorrect, those facts are republished. Again and again, if needed.

I don't know how many times I've been given exact opposite advise on coffee drinking. It's bad for your health, now it's good for your health. Medical research, in particular, changes the "facts" quite often. This can be quite disconcerting, to say the least!

Shooting the messenger is almost always inadvisable. Being burnt at the stake for claiming the Earth is round, and not the center of the universe went out of vogue some centuries ago. Just because we have documents nicely printed in hardcover with embossed lettering, does not mean we should never change them.

In the case of our "horse history", I would hope that serious historians in pursuit of the truth will be able to present their findings, without bias or persecution and, if that data is found to be valid, have this data entered into the records. It is my understanding that the Encylopedia Britannica has a very large group of folks whose only job is to keep the volumes up-to-date.

Ray
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 20 2007, 05:02 PM
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Good Morning!
Today is my birthday and I'll be away from my computer most of the day, enjoying a lovely afternoon with my husband, children and grandchildren who are taking me out to dinner. I'm also giving myself a birthday gift; I'm not going to read Kelly's or Hansi's posts. I think I want to be good to myself today. smile.gif

The information I provided represents everything that I currently know concerning Maashan, and I included the exact references for verification so that interested people can better inform themselves about the subject and come to their own conclusions.

Point:
I do not now, and never have had Maashan blood in my breeding horses. I do have now, and have always had El Dere blood in my breeding horses...We haven't bred in at least 8 years, could be more...but definitely too long. I miss it. We have retained just 3 precious mares and a stallion, along with our wonderful old gelding who is still ridden every day. These few horses are all boarded out now. We have hopes of being able to produce perhaps a couple of good horses before we are gone, God willing. We can hope, and we will try.

My own thoughts and my position:
I had nothing to do with the selection of the SO root horses, they were chosen many years ago by certain people whose knowledge of SE Arabian horse pedigree and history far exceed my own. I have deep regard for the mutual philosophy which brought them together, and I respect the definition and criteria crafted for the purpose of identification and root stock selection, reached by unified consensus. I feel the exact same way about the Pyramid Society and Al Khamsa. I have no desire whatsoever to attempt to "prove" or "disprove" the credibility or qualifications of any horse who proudly wears the labels provided by any of these three organizations. I honor each one these foundation horses with the dignity they so rightfully deserve as important, pure desert bred Arabian horse ancestors.

I have never attempted to discredit, demean or besmirch the reputations of any Arabian horse or any breeder...EVER, and I never shall. Success means different things to different people, but I believe that the only honorable path to reaching that goal is one which is paved with positive energy and marked by the tenets of fair play, even if it means working harder or getting there later; even if it means never getting there at all. I have tremendous admiration for all those who have reached high levels of renown in their field only through hard work, passion, and determination to meet the highest standards of their industries. For those who attempt short cuts to fame and glory via kicking the competition in the belly, poisoning their water, placing curses on their heads, or stomping on their backs to gain a lead, I have only deep repulsion. The greater the distance I can manage between them and myself, the happier I will be. Life's too short. cool.gif

Al Khamsa, the Pyramid Society and SOFI are all legitimate, legal entities. Their root stock lists are their intellectual property and theirs alone to maintain. So... kicking, screaming and bad-mouthing of their root lists by the perpetually disguntled may get some attention (as in "five minutes of fame), but is otherwise fruitless. Go tell Coca Cola that becuase you don't like the idea that they use corn syrup in their their soft drink that they have no right to include it their recipe. See how far that gets you. As they say....

The dogs may bark, but the caravan continues on.

I hope everyone enjoys this beautiful Sunday.

Caryn Rogosky
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Echo1
post May 20 2007, 05:37 PM
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Dear Caryn,

First let me wish you happy birthday and I do hope you enjoy your day and your family. I will refrain from posting any comments or questions to you for the rest of the weekend so you may enjoy this time with your family.
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Marilyn Lang
post May 20 2007, 05:54 PM
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A very Happy Birthday to a special person whose love and devotion to her family, friends and her horses is without question. So proud to be in your circle of friends.

Have a fantastic day filled with much love and laughter.

XOXO
Marilyn
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Robert 1
post May 20 2007, 07:04 PM
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Hi Caryn,
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU AND I DO HOPE YOU ENOY ALL THE BEAUTIFUL FEELINGS OF THE DAY THAT ONLY FAMILY CAN GIVE TO YOU. biggrin.gif

I do need to agree with you that the personal feelings should be left at the door but, some how they have a way of crawling inside and becoming part of the outside when certain topics are mentioned, I know we all feel as if we are the ones with the correct answers and this sometimes is what makes it all interesting reading but, the personal and OBVIOUS insults and name calling are not needed by some, if one can't accept that they are losing there is no need for that in order to get another thread closed. I am so glad you do not behave as some others do, thank you and enjoy your wonderful birthday. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
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eric
post May 20 2007, 09:49 PM
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Caryn,

Jody and I wish you much love on this very special day. Please understand that you are truly blessed with a wonderful family and with wonderful friends.

XOXO

Eric
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Eyegor
post May 20 2007, 10:04 PM
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Hello Caryn,
I am so sorry I did not realize it was your birthday. Jenny and I wish you a most wonderful day and may it be blessed with true happiness and Joy.
I have read your posts for over a decade and you have forever been a most honorable person and know you have always posted in deference to other opinions. Although I have never met you in person I am proud to see you as a friend.
May God in his infinite wisdom make this day and all your days a joyous celebration of life.

With my Highest Regards and never ending Respect,
Happy Birthday Caryn

Jenny and Joe Linzner,
from out California way.
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Eyegor
post May 20 2007, 10:50 PM
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posted by the famous Kelly:

(((JOE,
You Stated:

"I have really tried hard to refrain from posting here but finally you have succeeded in yet again putting words in my mouth?

Hansi, I most certainly hope you are not refering to me when you allege that one poster called the "new information Garbage" for if you did, I would consider that a misrepresentation of what I said. That of course then would make you a liar, would it not."



QUOTE(Eyegor @ May 14 2007, 11:17 PM)
You know MZ Melnyck,
you are truly pitiful, what on earth does any of this ElDeree earth shaking new garbage have to do with SO or Exochorda at all?







From the El Deree thread. May 14. ))))))))))

That particualr line is intended to mean that earth shaking and New is the Garbage part, Because nothing she posted actually is new at all. Has nothing to do with ElDeree but what it is she attributed to the "discovery" .
It reads just like a plagiarized re-write of a combination of well known reference material. Period. Never would I invoke the name God in the negative , no matter whose, in vain on any public thread, I don't even do that in private. Particularly not on a tread involving horses. It also refers that instead of posting the happy News, she immediately had to turn it into a diatribe AGAINST another horse and that is the biggest "garbage" of it all. To try and prove one's belief that something is new by disparaging another horse as further proof of one's expertise is despicable.
It's Like me congratulating myself on having kids and in the same breath telling you that yours are someone else's???? I would never ever even think to do that???

I know you have difficulty understanding the written english word but I do feel you have the right to read it anyway you wish mostly because being illiterate, 50% of the true meaning is above your reading level.

Insulting? How was that, Does it meet your level of expectation.
I do think that giving people like you and Hansi a podia where you can slander, create ill will, defame and attack the integrity of not just horses but individuals (who have never posted negatively in any manner to be despiccably dishonorable) should be censured.
As far as I am concerned This type of thread which is really going no-where, particulalry since you and the EXPERT are doing nothing but taking posts out of context and just attacking the person., should be closed. You never add anything new and earthshaking. You never deal with facts but merely sling accusations and allusions. Never ever do you actually define a reason for your deduction nor do you seem to understand that, said person is truly only posting what it actually does say, without embellishment. How many times must it be said "that regardless of what you and Hansi think it says" is a reflection on your capacity to just not understand what is written. Some people just post to state facts, to honestly refer people to a location where that fact can be read in actuality. Others post merely to read themselves on line. A sort of Narcissism.
There is not a single passage in the BIBLE that is interpreted that same way by every person in exactly the same way. Thats why there are a gazillion different denominations why there are different sects in Islam as well.....
I can't prove the accuracy of the Bible, I can't prove the differences in any understanding of what it says and I do not have the right to tell anyone that they are wrong and only I am right. First I am not qualified and second I wouldn't because I respect individual rights.....If new data is found an labelled earthshaking one expects it to be trukly new and earthshaking not a rehash of what is already known and re-post it as NEW. That's the garbage here.
Why can't I ask anyone topost, How is that negative. I do not need you to tell what I ccan and cannot post or ask>>????
I'm afraid you are actually not a all worth any further replies. So take your opinion and put it wherever you will...... adieu
Truly

This post has been edited by Eyegor: May 20 2007, 10:56 PM
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Echo1
post May 20 2007, 11:19 PM
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QUOTE (Eyegor @ May 20 2007, 11:50 PM)
posted by the famous Kelly:

(((JOE,
You Stated:

"I have really tried hard to refrain from posting here but finally you have succeeded in yet again putting words in my mouth?

Hansi, I most certainly hope you are not refering to me when you allege that one poster called the "new information Garbage" for if you did, I would consider that a misrepresentation of what I said. That of course then would make you a liar, would it not."
QUOTE(Eyegor @ May 14 2007, 11:17 PM)
You know MZ Melnyck,
you are truly pitiful, what on earth does any of this ElDeree earth shaking new garbage  have to do with SO or Exochorda at all?
From the El Deree thread. May 14. ))))))))))

That particualr line is intended to mean that earth shaking and New  is the Garbage part, Because nothing she posted actually is new at all. Has nothing to do with ElDeree but what it is she attributed to the "discovery" .
It reads just like a plagiarized re-write of a combination of well known reference material. Period. Never would I invoke the name God in the negative , no matter whose,  in vain on any public thread, I don't even do that in private. Particularly not on a tread involving horses. It also refers that instead of posting the happy News, she immediately had to turn it into a diatribe AGAINST another horse and that is the biggest "garbage" of it all.  To try and prove one's belief that something is new by disparaging another horse as further proof of one's expertise is despicable.
  It's Like me congratulating myself on having kids and in the same breath telling you that yours are someone else's????  I would never ever even think to do that???

I know you have difficulty understanding the written english word but I do feel you have the right to read it anyway you wish mostly because being illiterate, 50% of the true meaning is above your reading level.

Insulting?  How was that,  Does it meet your level of expectation.
I do think that giving people like you and Hansi a podia where you can slander, create ill will, defame and attack the integrity of not just horses but individuals (who have never posted negatively in any manner to be despiccably dishonorable) should be censured.   
As far as I am concerned This type of thread which is really going no-where, particulalry since you and the EXPERT are doing nothing but taking posts out of context and just attacking the person., should be closed. You never add anything new and earthshaking. You never deal with facts but merely sling  accusations and allusions. Never ever do you actually define a reason for your deduction nor do you seem to understand that, said person is truly only posting what it actually does say, without embellishment. How many times must it be said "that regardless of what you and Hansi think it says" is a reflection on your capacity to just not understand what is written. Some people just post to state facts, to honestly refer people to a location where that fact can be read in actuality. Others post merely to read themselves on line. A sort of Narcissism.
There is not a single passage in the BIBLE that is interpreted that same way by every person in exactly the same way. Thats why there are a gazillion different denominations why there are different sects in Islam as well.....
I can't prove the accuracy of the Bible, I can't prove the differences in any understanding of what it says and I do not have the right to tell anyone that they are wrong and only I am right. First I am not qualified and second I wouldn't because I respect individual rights.....If new data is found an labelled earthshaking one expects it to be trukly new and earthshaking not a rehash of what is already known and re-post it as NEW. That's the garbage here.
Why can't I ask anyone topost, How is that negative. I do not need you to tell what I ccan and cannot post or ask>>???? 
I'm afraid you are actually not a all worth any further replies. So take your opinion and put it wherever you will...... adieu
Truly
*


Another attempt to engage in a personal attack to lock the thread.
Joe, you've lost all credibility and respect .....on several contintents.
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MAXHOPEMIME
post May 20 2007, 11:49 PM
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I've been reading this thread since its beginnig and still have not come across the answer for the question asked.
Can someboly out there tell me why Mashaan is SOFI /SOF amd El Dere is not?
From what I believe I have read on this thread Both of these stallions came from the same origin and traveled similar paths to the RAS?
Was it because Dr Branch was more involved with Mashaan than El Dere?
And if so was it because there are references in writting about Mashaan by Dr Branch?

Chris
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Kimberli Nelson
post May 21 2007, 01:11 AM
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When Al Khamsa 1 came out in 1982, it listed foundation horses for the country of Egypt as “Egypt”, “Blunt” and “Inshass”.

Jay Gormley, Edna Weeks and Julia Byfield were the founders of The Sheykh Obeyd Foundation, SOF, not to be confused with SOFI. The choice of horses for these three breeders were the Egypt/Blunt horses. They choose NOT to include any horse listed under the Al Khamsa designation of "Inshass". These horses were El Deree, El Samraa, El Khahila, El Shahbaa, Hind, Mabrouka and Nafaa.

This is very simple to understand. It does not matter when any of the Inshass horses went to the RAS, when they were bred for the first time, when they raced or whose auspices they were under. They were not chosen for inclusion in SOF by the three founders.

I hope this answers your question.
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Robert 1
post May 21 2007, 01:27 AM
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Hi Kimberli,
A nice simple explanation wih no hidden spaces for questions, Thanks. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Oh, and Congratulations on your new stallion addition, I like the picture of him, his face has that true Desert Arabian look that is so hard to find nowdays, I hope you get blessed with some nice foals from him. biggrin.gif
Robert,
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 21 2007, 02:03 AM
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Friends,
Thank you very much for the wonderful birthday wishes and for the precious gifts of your warm sentiments. You've helped to make this a very special day for me. I truly do understand that I am a very blessed woman, and am grateful every day of my life for all that I've been given. The best friends I've ever had in my lifetime are those I've met through my involvement with Arabian horses.

You know, when you have your family, your health and real friendship, there's nothing more you can hope for.

Well...maybe just a pasture full of gorgeous Arabian horses, but that's all, ...really. smile.gif
Caryn
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