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> New Registrations Of Arabian Horses, Etc., What is the point of no return?
LMG
post Jul 8 2007, 06:09 PM
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I do know that it was a committee that drew up the plans to construct the camel, and there is a vicious rumor that is also true about the elephant. however, perhaps the only thing to do is to try to organize, if even only locally, small groups to study what is working in their area among other types of horse activities and bring these ideas forward to a larger group which will work outside and without the blessings of the AHA, which unfortunately seems to be determined to make the same mistakes that it's predecessors made - primarily which was to play court fool to whichever group had the real or imagined power of the purse.

Most people have too much going on in their lives to take the time to spend it for the future in which they may not have any part, but if it was only for going to one or two local (and not necessarily Arabian event) events during the horse activitly year, and report back whether this or that worked. We may also need to (don't groan) get involved in a local club, to try and use this as a platform to encourage other events.

Here in Central California, Sheila Varian gave notice of a Cow Girl's Hall of Fame
working horse event which will take place in August on a ranch here in the rock and roll area of California (near the major fault - Parkfield) - this is something that will give non-Arabian Horse owning people to see that which Arabian Horses Can do.

We need to know about more of these types of events and to support them with our horses, if we can at all do so. We also need to encourage riding, and perhaps mentor young riders - I am trying to teach one of my horses to kneel long enough to let me get into the saddle.

I do thank Ambiri for thinking that I'lm even in her decade -

LMG
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Robert 1
post Jul 8 2007, 06:23 PM
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QUOTE (Ralph @ Jul 8 2007, 04:13 PM)
How do these registration numbers compare against the registration numbers of other breeds? The Arabian breed is not the only horse breed sufferring a decline in registration? I read in Equus magazine that even the American Paint Horse, which had been enjoying double digit growth percentages, even suffered a decline.  All equine activities compete for the disposable income of people looking for a recreational activity. Some people choose boats, some people choose bicycling and some people choose iPods. With the people who decide to pursue horses as a recreational outlet, I find it hard to believe that the wide choice of horse breeds, all competing for that person, will not create an effect similar to like like, voting in an election...some people say that the run for USA President between Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani will be a very close race, with Clinton emerging the victor. However, if NYC mayor, Michael Bloomberg runs for president, as an independent candidate (a third party), he will split the votes between Clinton and Giuliani, maybe causing a dead heat. Maybe a bad example for horses but maybe that's what we see here,  a split vote for the Arabian breed, as less and less people are choosing horses for recreation (maybe it is too expensive for the average Joe?) and the ones who do choose (who can afford it), have an overwhelming choice between the breeds, as to which horse is best suited for their goals.  smile.gif
*

EXCELLENT POST RALPH AND YOUR COMPARISONS AND EXAMPLES HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. biggrin.gif wink.gif
WHEN THE ARABIAN HORSE WAS BIG BACK EVEN INTO THE SIXTIES THEY WERE NOT A CHEAP HORSE TO BUY AND THEN MOST OTHER BREEDS WERE NOT IN THE DEMAND THAT THEY ARE NOW.
HORSE PEOPLE SAW HOW THE ARABIAN HORSE WAS BECOMING VERY SUCCESSFUL AND OTHER BREEDS BEGAN TO GET LAUNCHED INTO THE ARENA OF BUYING AND SHOWING AND BREEDING HORSES FOR A POSSIBLE PROFIT, THIS CAUSED OVER THE YEARS A SLOW CHANGE AND IT JUST NOW SEEMS TO BE FELT AS THE ARABIAN STILL COMANDS A FAIR MARKET PRICE ALONG WITH OTHER BREEDS BEING IN THE RACE FOR RECREATION, SO IT IS NATURAL FOR IT TO CAUSE A SMALL DECLINE IN ARABIAN REGISTRATION OF NEW FOALS, AS THIS WILL ALSO CAUSE A SMALL RISE IN OTHER NOW POPULAR BREEDS BUT, THIS CERTAINLY DOESN'T MEAN THE SKY IS FALLING IN ONCE AGAIN, OR THAT THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE ARABIAN HORSE WILL COME IN ANYONES LIFE TIME OR FOR THE THE NEXT TEN GENERATIONS TO COME laugh.gif biggrin.gif laugh.gif wink.gif

ROBERT,
ECHO HILL ARABIANS
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heidip
post Jul 8 2007, 07:24 PM
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Make room at the home, I'm tipping 50......... and all my mares are open this year.
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Kimberli Nelson
post Jul 8 2007, 07:47 PM
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I see this as an adjustment phase. When the registrations reached some 30,000 plus horses for a few years, the prices were high and quality was somewhat low. This was the day of breed ALL mares and get big dollars . You had two types of horses, breeding stock and investment horses. These same horses that are now causing our horses to have an average age between 18 to 20 years old.

When these horses are gone (my guess, in another 10 years) the market will once again change where the quality Arabian horse will be the illusive creature that is hard to find and harder to buy. They will be rare once again. It is up to our breeders today to produce the very best HORSES we can and then make sure they are good Arabians as well.

People today, I am talking the majority of horses owner of ALL breeds, are looking for a good riding horse. Very few people can afford the high dollar horse that can only stand around and be loved and fed. These spots are being taken up by rescue horses and old doing horses that need a home and they are generally free of charge if you are just willing to take them.

The Arabian horse needs a new image, the one we all know and love and that is a great family companion. The days of the crazy show horses needs to end because we have way too many horses needing homes and very few true horsemen that can handle the aggression of some of these horses.

The average person today was not raised on a farm or ranch, they do not know how to train or even care for horses for the most part. They are not stupid and can learn but where do they go? How do they find the help they need? As breeders we need to hold ourselves to a much higher standard both in producing quality and selling horses with integrity, honesty and be willing to mentor those we sell to. Teach them to be successful breeders if that is their desire and encourage them to use the horses to its fullest. These horses have a lot to offer, don't under-sell their ability. Show them how easy it is to train their own horses, help them learn about conformation and then breed type. Show them what they can do for themselves. Mentor, Mentor, Mentor... That should be our goal and should be high on our priority list.

I would much rather see 2500 high quality Arabians born each year than 30,000 average Arabians born.

Our chosen breed has been the breed used over the century's to improve other breeds, yet today the perceived quality is so low that our stallions stand only to our own mares on farm and not many to the improvement of other breeds. Many of our mares are being bred to stallions of other breeds, even our SE mares, and they are producing quality doing horses. I have seem them go to Frisians, Trakerners, Thoroughbreds and Quarter horsesMany are being bred for color by breeding them to paint or creamellos and perlinos.... And the best part is that these breeders tell me that is is the other breed that is causing the quality! To me, this type of breeding will be the downfall of the breed as a whole. Use the stallions to improve, not the mares. A mare can only have maybe 7 to 10 foals in a lifetime. Yet we allow this cross to be registered. Is there any thoughts about our future in this regard? Should we allow our breed registry to encourage the use and registration of part-breds out of Purebred mares? What are we thinking? unsure.gif
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LMG
post Jul 8 2007, 07:52 PM
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Nina:

It is very nice to hear the opinion of a young person. And, you are probably correct in that there are so many other activities for young people to participate in that horses, not only being expensive, but dangerous to a beginner, are not too high on the list of things to do.

And, it also interesting to hear your opinion of what I've also heard from young people about the "behavior" of older people at horse shows. We have always had this to some degree, but , in my opinion it has gotten worse as we have fewer and fewer people riding or even handling their horses.

Many years ago, people at dog shows were not as well mannered as they appear to be today. Hopefully, there will be some evolution in horse shows.

Thank you for your opinion - I hope you stay interested in the Arabian Horse for a good long while, as our breed does need enthusiasts, and particularly young ones.

LMG
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Nadj al Nur
post Jul 8 2007, 08:00 PM
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Kimberli, I'm with ya. I'm all for using the stallions on other breeds, but it makes me nuts when I see quality SE mares being bred to other breeds.......
Cathy
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LMG
post Jul 8 2007, 08:17 PM
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Kimberli: I'm in such agreement with you, regarding using the mares for outcross stallions. How can a breed organization promote such an idea and then state they are representing the purebred breeders and owners? Should there not be a half-Arabian organization to do that?

Back in the 1960's when I was being instructed in horsemanship, my instructors were never in favor of Arabians, so we haven't changed a great deal, and the horse of choice was the thoroughbred or the quarter horse - and the quarter horse was the horse of choice for most trail and recreational riders. I do believe that Western Horseman was a major quarterhorse trade magazine and for years I received the thoroughbred industry magazine. So there was a bit more choice about horses to own than it may have appeared.

If one bought an Arabian, in those days and in those circles, it was somewhat akin to having run off to get married to some kid in a rock and roll band - you were advised that the cheap colt, Fadjur wouldn't go anywhere and that the boy would never succeed, even if the kid's name was Ringo or Paul or some such.

LMG
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HorsesandKitties
post Jul 8 2007, 08:17 PM
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Hello All this wil be a long post.

I am in the middle of that 21-50 group and I think I am done after the venom I got this morning I don't think it is worth it and I don't need to put my time, money and effort into these horses anymore. I can take my Dressage horse and go have fun and not care if the SE's die

I will never be able to win in the showring (If I cannot afford a 1,000.00 a month trainer I'm not going to win PERIOD) Sorry folks they may throw a bone out there to the pheasants every once in awhile, but after the Event this year I have truely learned my lesson from watching classes.

Here is the truely SAD SAD THING. THE BLOODLINES ARE DYING OUT FOLKS and unless people bred some of the rarer stuff soon. IT WILL BE GONE.

The Arabian breed is only going to register about 7500 horses this year. I want anyone who has the datasource to go do a search. Pick any Stallion that was popular 5-7 years ago. The go to his get and look at how many have actually been bred. I bet its less than 10%. Yes, there are some that have been bred on heavily, but the majority have not.

We have 1 of the only SE El hilal mares left that can possibly be bred also one of the only 2 Malik daughters lin the US left and a German El hilal. You know what we had quit breeding them and now these mares only have 2-3 foals to carry on their lines and they were at least bred at one time.

I am in the middle of that 21-50 group and I think I am done after the venom I got this morning I don't think it is worth it and I don't need to put my time, money and effort into these horses anymore. I can take my Dressage horse and go have fun and not care if the SE's or the smaller bloodlines die out anymore. Let the breeders who sit and preach all the high values and its all for the horses save them. They obviously do not need the money, because they are so against anyone making any money.
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Kimberli Nelson
post Jul 8 2007, 08:39 PM
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HorsesandKitties,

BS... (I am sure you know what that means)There are many people out there JUST LIKE YOU. We have taken the venom from those who feel they are in power but remember, they are the bully's. Just hit back and see what happens. The show ring is NOT the standard a true breeder lives buy. AND I have been threatened by the best of them for my values.

You have your values and if you are in the spirit, they will attack you, pure and simple. Hang in there, virtue always wins in the end.

P.S. PLEASE breed that El Hilal daughter of yours.... It will be worth the effort in a few years.
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HLM
post Jul 8 2007, 08:50 PM
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Yes Jeanatte it was a short notice and I was only there a few days.
Definitely will I be available FREE OF CHARGE for such a seminar or clinic and may be someone can help to arrange it.I am not good at that, have so little time, have a number of trips scheduled out of the country, etc.etc. but we can arrange a time and place. Of course the EE would be grat, there are areas we can do it
well. And may be some of you will assist. Sure would be nice if a bunch of kids would be there to join, listen and learn, eh. I amnot an expert in Western, have won championships in it even rode at the US Nationals in it, but that was just because I dont fall of the horse that easily (used to), ha.

But I can teach the ground work, proper longing, learning the horses language,etc.etc.etc. Actually from the womb to the Tomb. So if someone of you wants to get the ball rolling, I am game.

It has to be one I can drive to, no more than 800 miles from this farm, which I can handle in one day, provided it can be done from sunrise to sunset because of my eyes and of course my tender age, and it is getting tender, ha.

Let me know
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.
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Kimberli Nelson
post Jul 8 2007, 08:59 PM
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Hansi, if you will be in Arizona after the Institue weekend next year, I will have a clinic here at my farm for you. You can choose the date and the subject.... PLUS you could even stay here with me. It would be so much fun and I am sure there would be many people that would attend.
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Robert 1
post Jul 8 2007, 10:26 PM
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laugh.gif
QUOTE (LMG @ Jul 8 2007, 09:17 PM)
Kimberli:   I'm in such agreement with you, regarding using the mares for outcross stallions.  How can a breed organization promote such an idea and then state they are representing the purebred breeders and owners?  Should there not be a half-Arabian organization to do that?

Back in the 1960's when I was being instructed in horsemanship, my instructors were never in favor of Arabians, so we haven't changed a great deal, and the horse of choice was the thoroughbred or the quarter horse - and the quarter horse was the horse of choice for most trail and recreational riders.  I do believe that Western Horseman was a major quarterhorse trade magazine and for years I received the thoroughbred industry magazine.   So there was a bit more choice about horses to own than it may have appeared.

If one bought an Arabian, in those days and in those circles, it was somewhat akin to having run off to get married to some kid in a rock and roll band - you were advised that the cheap colt, Fadjur wouldn't go anywhere and that the boy would never succeed, even if the kid's name was Ringo or Paul or some such.

LMG
*


In the sixties,
The horses of choice weren't REGISTERED Quarter Horses or REGISTERED Thoroughbred, 99 and 44 one hundreds percent  laugh.gif were Grade Horses, if they had some resemblence to a Thoroughbred  or had a few drops of that blood they were referred to as such, same goes for the Quarter horse, I was around riding stables and riding instructors at the arenas most of my life and I never saw or heard anyone say that their horse was a registered horse, I may have had one of the few Registered horses and he was Arabian, and I had to sell two of my very best riding horses and there saddles to get half the money to buy my first registered Arabian colt, wink.gif  so it would seems there is a bit of a difference laugh.gif  laugh.gif
As for the beautifful dynamic FADUR many horse lovers drooled over him the same as the world did over one of the most prolific song writers by the name of John and his group, who turned out to be the Beatles laugh.gif  laugh.gif  wink.gif  biggrin.gif

Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians
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HLM
post Jul 8 2007, 11:22 PM
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Dear Kimberly

thank you so much for your kind invitation. But I cant accept it yet, because I have to hurry back, to get the six horses for the uAE ready for export. It cuts me out 30 days before too, because 30 days are the quarantine time and there is so much involved, so much paper work, etc.etc. Actually I am hoping that I can come at all.
The only difference would make it, if we can either ship before or later.
I will know soon and let you know.
If I can come, do I need to bring my boxing gloves or do you have a two by four haendi? biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif . I know I wont grab throats, ha biggrin.gif
(others, please dont attack, its my unoredoxed sense of humor)

Hugs
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
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Kimberli Nelson
post Jul 8 2007, 11:27 PM
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Hansi, after 30 some odd years with SE Arabians I have both boxing gloves and two x fours! You are welcome to both. Really, I would be terribly dissapointed if you are not able to come next year. It is so important to all preservation breeders to show a solidarity withing the groups. And without education and more education from the old timers, what do we have left????

Please try to schedule the exports for a later date.
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Echo1
post Jul 9 2007, 03:09 AM
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LMG,
Statistics can be manipulated. biggrin.gif

Let's not forget that AHA said the same thing a few years ago in the middle of the year only to end up having an increase in foal registrations for the end of 2005 which I believe was an amnesty year. Still, I don't see where it would be a banner year.

I don't even know if everyone uses AHA anymore if the horses are destined for export. The only reason anyone would use AHA is for showing purposes since they do not participate with WAHO.

I do love performance horses, but keep in mind there is no incentive for being a performance breeder. The expenses far outweigh what the horses sell for. A performance horse isn't even a performance horse until he is at least 4 years old. Most are older. Otherwise they are all just known as 'prospects'.
Why even register if a colt is only going to be gelded or sold for $500?

But here's an important tip you missed. If you go to look at the 'datasource' look up how many mares are registered each year, and then go look up how many geldings and stallions (combined) are registered you will see that there are colts who are never registered. wink.gif
It would be nice to be a breeder and be assured that there are always more fillies born year after year than there are colts. Usually mother nature works differently, but like you say there are no absolutes.


Seems the last decade shows that there are more fillies born each year than colts? Interesting, don't you think? More likely colts aren't being registered because they are being gelded or sold without papers.

Seems to me that the problem isn't with the 'halter' horses or them being expensive as you portray, actually SE horses make up 10% of the purebred population in the US, which shows growth over the last two decades. I could remember when SE accounted for only 2% of the purebred population. The problem is in breeding horses who can't sell or have a low value which makes registrations not such a financially feasible idea especially on a colt.

All you have to do is look at the shape of the performance shows and the lack of participation in performance classes. It's a shame that these geldings and colts aren't being trained to ride and shown and registered.
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