Joined: 16-March 03
Member No.: 41
“All you have to do is look at the shape of the performance shows and the lack of participation in performance classes.”
I know I am only taking this one statement out of your entire post but I would like to address this.
One only needs to go to the other breed shows and open breed shows to see that the majority of horses there are performance horses and not halter horses. There may be one or two classes(if that many) for halter and then we will spend the rest of the day and late into the night on all different types of performance. Many of these horses are Arabians. You won't see them at All Arabian shows, you will see them at open breed shows.
There are kids to oldies riding their horses and many of those horses sell for a pretty penny. The other breed registries are working hard to promote geldings and performance, not breeding and not halter.
I think our registry could do both, promote both Performance and Halter. They could educate about conformation and training. They could give seminars all over the country for a small fee, encourage small breeders to participate and take these horses to the next level.
When the opinion of the general public is one of “Crazy Arab” we all lose.
Joined: 27-June 05
From: Paso Robles, CA
Member No.: 2551
I cannot speak for the other shows, but if one is in Paso Robles, California, there will be two shows, which will be strictly performance. I don't recall which is which, but one is a Women's Cutting or Reining show and the other similar show in cutting or reining. Both are anticipated by this area, with eager anticipation, not only by the various hotels, restaurants and other venuess, but the estimated amount of money, expected to be brought to Paso Robles and its Environs is rather amazing.
The last one I attended, which was just a small cutting event, last one day, had everyone in the saddle, including little kids. And my little companion in the stands, who gave running commentary on her mother's performance was a twelve or fourteen year old, who was also junior cutter.
At the last Equine Extravaganza or whatever they call it, there were lots of people in the stands with all kinds of horses, that I spoke to, but few told me that they had an Arabian.
I do remember the Arabian Horse Fair in Reno, years ago, and that had a lot of visitors - Sheila, among others gave training demonstrations and the stands were packed. So what happened?
Our local Arabian Horse Organization is hanging on by a thread due to lack of members and funds. It is my understanding that the cost of a show for Arabians is prohibitive and therefore it is looking at other activities for the members to continue to be involved.
I apologize to those who are more aware of the facts of the TB and Quarter Horse Industry than I during the period, discussed. However, Captain De Nemethy ,who was the then Captain of the Three Day Event Team for the USET, told me, when I was in New Jersey that he was getting some of his horses, including one he showed me, from the West Coast, including from a well known trainer, at that time, by the name of Jimmy Williams. This horse was a Registered Quarter primarily of the running horse type. Of course these horses were either gifted or loaned to the USET at the time.
Joined: 2-January 06
From: Prince George, B.C. Canada
Member No.: 3074
Lorriee, our local club (of which I was president for six years) is also just hanging on by a thread. There has not been a class A show here for quite a few years, as you say, because the cost is prohibitive, and there is hardly anyone showing anymore, also because of cost. The club does have a lot of seminars, clinics etc., but has had to open them to all breeds to make even those pay for themselves. It may be somewhat different in this area because of the huge terrritory that this club covers (about 500 X 700 miles) and the logistics of people getting to things can be mind boggling, especially in winter, but it seems that people just have no interest in the show scene. They want to ride, and learn things but not to show, and because of this, will not join an organization that promotes only showing. They get NOTHING from it. Can't say I blame them......... Cathy
Joined: 20-March 03
Member No.: 173
QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 9 2007, 08:08 AM)
but it seems that people just have no interest in the show scene. They want to ride, and learn things but not to show, and because of this, will not join an organization that promotes only showing. They get NOTHING from it. Can't say I blame them......... Cathy
Count me in, this is what it's all about. My husband is really starting to enjoy riding (on 20 y old Davenport mare). We spent a wonderful day in the cooler temperatures at higher elevation (picture at 6565ft - Vincent Gap, Angeles N Forest). His mare is not conditioned but did very well barefoot on very rocky terrain, about 7 mile ride - may be 2000ft climb (we went very slow). The bay mare is 16 and 10 m pregnant.
PS. forgot to say that I love Shadow (bay mare) so much that I rebred her hoping for a filly. I want to "preserve her" as she is the best.
Joined: 31-December 04
From: Central Saskatchewan, Canada
Member No.: 2096
The positive aspect from AHA (by the way, no egg throwing at me yet until after reading my entire post, deal?), is that there definitely has been an increase in prize money in certain events at Scottsdale. Money is definitely not all that matters, however I am confident many will agree that at least with the payouts offered, the futurities, at Scottsdale there is an opportunity to get some money back. This is also getting the attention of QH reiner trainers. I also have to hand it to the Sask. Arab club for adding Working Cow horse to their shows and introducing more clinics on this. They deserve a pat on the back for their example of taking the bull by the horns to demonstrate action instead of pounding any idea into the ground before it is tried...
With all this said, one of the reasons I personally am not sold on attending AHA sanctioned shows is the "take, take, take" mentality with money equalling no prize money, in general. Why bother when you can go to an open all breed show and at least have a shot at winning some cash back, a saddle, a lease on a trailer, or so on - things that attract those who are interested in performance horses. Or, a show like Scottsdale. Or the Las Vegas show, if only for greater exposure and "advertising" in a sense. Personally, I sure hope Las Vegas keeps the Reining classes.
On the Open horse world:
The Greatest Canadian Ranch Horse competition prize money has gone up again this year, from $5,000.00 for first to $6,500.00 not to forget to mention the vast exposure and networking that results.
The Sask. Barrel Racing (SBRA) finals to be held in August has, and I quote the ad, "$5,000.00 added in the open; $3,000.00 in the youth; Saddles, Prize Money and awards..." Please note the bolding of "added", as I am not sure how much money was there already. After watching an SBRA competition last week, noting many Appaloosa's running, watching the riders, and having a potential racing mentor right under my nose through my very close friend who has won a few SBRA saddles in her day - well I am pretty sure that the tall SE mare I have in my pasture, who I am not ashamed to say, if not for her overall type and Liberty performances, looks similiar to an Appendix QH (which is a QH with Thoroughbred lines incorporated) complete with that brand on her hind quarter - which I'll call a disguise to blend in with QHs and Apps. - could run a few patterns next year if I do more than toy with the idea. The only problem is while standing relaxed, her head always gives her away regarding what breed she is.
Oh, and then there is the Sask. Reining Jackpot, also advertising "added money". Think we'll go see that event and ask more questions there too.
My point? Perhaps a person has to practice at the Open events that interest them, possibly regain some cash for the addiction, while also attending selected shows that tickle your fancy for added exposure and advertising to both Arabian breeders and other horse people. Make a plan.
By the way, we are breeding this year...
Sincerely, Sheila Bautz
This post has been edited by Sharabia: Jul 10 2007, 06:42 AM
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192
Good morning everybody
Kimberly thanks for your post. You are so right. We used to do this, showed in many open classes because at my time there were not enough Arab Shows available.
We had fun, was very affordable and the Arabians often defeated other breeds,looked so much prettier and attracked many newcommers.
People seem to sometimes fobget that the Arabian ist possibly the most versatile Equine on earth, and so easy to train. And training is what has to be taught.
I was told yesterday visiting another wonderful oldtime horseman/breeder (Cindy and Herbert Murren) in the Gainesville,fl area that the training fee per month doubled with at least one good trainer I know in Ocala,Fl.breeder. It's now about $ 25.00 per day, which still is not much considering upkeep of the horse etc. However, not everybody can afford this and the answer is to learn to do it themselves.
This means that we need to get people into taken some lessons, teach them what equipment is all about, how to start a young horse (longing,ground driving) etc. If some of our people, having teaching knowledge would get people together in their area, get the children,young ones to also attend, it would be a great help. Even an over the weekend course would do a lot,because those interested usually learn fast.
Right now I dont think anybody can do much with the heatwaves- we still have for the past 10 days 100-112F with great humitity. that's hard on us, but our horses dont mind at all.
Kimberly, should I be able to get to that Al Khamsa convention, may be all of us interested should get together and make a workable plan. All our posters here, have so much to offer and facing each other to have more understanding what we all mean, will be of great help. It is often the problem "How do we start whatever" and there is where I might be able to help. I have even invented some equipment 4o years ago, which is so safe- not on the market- which could be such help to many I think. I will bring it along to show its purpose.
The only problem we all might face is the liability aspect and the insurance companies do have a particular contract for participants to sign, so that none of us gets sued.The latter has been the handicap for many of us afraid to hold hands on work lectures. We all need to discuss this too.
In the meantime may be all interested should work on their ideas,bring them along and lets see how many we can incorporate. I am game.
Joined: 31-December 04
From: Central Saskatchewan, Canada
Member No.: 2096
What you say about attracting new comers is true. One older gentleman who was here to look at our horses a couple of weeks ago said that years ago, while watching an open competition of horses working cows he saw an Arabian who blew away the QH competition. This man, I am guessing, is in his 70's and has been in horses for decades.
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192
A great success for many of us oldtimers where the COUNTRY FAIRS.All kind of people go there to have fun and many to buy a horse or being compelled to do so. It is inexpensive to go to such show, often one can show off ones trailer. does not need expensive clothing/attire, and meet people from all sorts of way of life. all one needs is to have the horse look clean, the equipment also and have fun. and it is fun people want to have and buy.
Ralph - good to read your post... I'd add on to yours the concept of commitment... is the commitment there for the one (or many) horse(s) any more? The Arabian's longevity and usefulness is beyond 20 years. In the culture of the show ring, in general, the has been is the freshly matured horse (which in itself begs the question - what are being judged as mature Arabians)
Did we breed too big (quantity), too fast from the point of importation. Other breeds have caught up, as you mention - the attention is divided. A perceived advantage of the other breeds is that they are horses with a name. The Arabians are a name that can encompass different kinds of horses. Do we truly know how to market this aspect of the Arabian to the greater advantage?
Joined: 5-May 03
From: Pennsylvania, USA
Member No.: 394
But don't you also think that sometimes owners and breeders put themselves right into the QH market by reducing prices, stud fees, and not breeding for type as well as performance attributes? When you can be a lesser quality and lower priced Arab vs. a good quality QH for $2500 and the stud fees are the same at $500 to $750 isn't that like asking to be put into the mix and to compete with the QH? Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.
Sheila, I think the incentives, like you mention are part of the fun and excitement of showing in performance. Show me the 'added' money.
Joined: 11-November 05
From: Whisper Wind Farm, Ky USA
Member No.: 2883
How else are you going to draw in more people then to compete with the QH market? If there were more well broke arabians that are child-safe to ride and show in open and 4-H shows they have to be in the same price range of $2,500 to $3,000 as QH's to attract new buyers. I"m not talking upper end Class A show horses- I'm talking an all around family horse. If I were looking for a horse and seen a nice quality QH in that price range and the nearest Arabian started at triple that price which would I buy for my child to ride and show? The QH of course...
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192
Dear Echo1 and Sandy
I mentioned often that none of us can only produce Kentucky Derby winners, so to speak. From a batch of foals there is always that alpha one, and all being graded by the breeder. Bazy Tankersley for many years set a very good example of doing just that "grading" and sold/sells many in the below $ 5,000 range. Then there will be a good one coming along making up for the losses.
I often stated that I have seen better horses at our smaller breeders than at the EE, and rightfully so, but that did not mean that those were now those Kentucky Derby winners- so to speak. they were by enlarge horses which would be suitable for what you say Sandy, able to compete pricewise with other breeds, but often are far more horse. Most of those horses I saw have at least decent legs under them and are mentally sound as well. But they are not $ 20,000 horses.
I also stated at one time that I think we have possibly no more than 500-700 top broodmares of the SEs in the world. By this I mean, functional,beautiful and close to perfect correctness. Many left his country for the Gulf Regions and Middle east, and the number of top mares is shrinking here in my opinion. The gulf regions and Middle east continue to search for top mares, pay top prices but also have and are imported average ones with prices ranging below the $ 10,000 mark. I know a number of these horses and understand.
I also understand and know that it is impossible to produce a horse, any horse to sell for $ 2500.- when 3-4 yers old and already under saddle.Shortcuts would have to be taken to warrant such price.Basically one would have to do all the work, forego proper inoculations, worming, ferrir work, and have them on grass most year round.Naturally any of such neglect canl take its toll lateron.
Quality can only be produced from quality mares and stallions. Often halter champions dont fit that picture. I have seen offspring of such SEs which make my hair stand on end, asking myself "what is one got to do with such a horse? It most certainly did not appear to be able to do anything worthwhile under saddle.
To find out what one has, exposure is most helpful. Showing at those wonderful country fairs is one way to do it. It gives also comparrison of the various breeds entered in such classes. I say this, because it is so possible that that "Kentucky Derby Winner" is sitting in some small breeders backyard, experts would recognize if they see it publicly. Many of the original imports were recognized that way.
So I see that weanling are insured for 60K. With what was such compared? Did it look and appear like a triple crown prospect- so to speak- or is it because of fad breeding? It simply astonishes me. When I see mares appraised with 20K or more and have such crooked legs wondering if they can walk around the block, then I am astonished.
In any case, testing brings results, gives clues and decision making.
Joined: 5-May 03
From: Pennsylvania, USA
Member No.: 394
And that's just the point. If you can buy a good quality QH for the same price as a lesser quality Arabian than the QH will get sold first. Reason being is that most people shop by price alone. I honestly think more colts need to be gelded before they are sold, and the registry needs to give breeders a break on registering geldings. Then, someone comes along, buys this Arabian and decides that they are going to start breeding. When initially, this horse was not intended as a breeding horse but was sold off because he wasn't of the best quality for breeding. In the end, there are more horses of medicracy being bred and put into the market. Then these horses produce colts which aren't even feasible to be registered. A young Arabian gelding is not a difficult horse to train to ride. Of course we all know there are more than 2500 Purebreds born this year, so where are they?
Joined: 18-June 03
Member No.: 548
Does the Arabian Horse breeder/owner really understand his/her market? If this website is representative of only the Egyptian Arabian Horse industry, I would immediately say that the breeder/owner participating here, only understands the desires/wants of 3-5% of the total Arabian Horse Community. If Egyptian people and Crabbet people and Polish people and Spanish people all have a warped view of each other and each others horses, how do we expect non-Arabian horse people to perceive and understand our breed?
I'd add on to yours the concept of commitment... is the commitment there for the one (or many) horse(s) any more?
Commitment??? You speak in the language of the adult amateur owner, who develops a relationship with her horse and eventually a loving attachment to her horse, who will be owned by her forever. However, this person is in a very small minority, as most competitvely-minded people, who look to their riding from a self-perspective, in terms of rider skill improvement and the ability of the horse to help this person reach her goals, in and out of the show ring. The commitment is not to the horse but where she sees herself in 1 year, 3 years, 5 years. When a horse is no longer able to teach the rider, beyond where she finds herself, that horse is sold and a new teacher is found. In America, "commitment" to horses can be very depressing, judging from the number of horses who somehow ended up with uncommitted owners, for a variety of reasons and end up in very horrible and tragic circumstances. This is a reality that any person who breeds and raises horses, with an intent to sell them MUST embrace. Who is responsible for the lifetime of a particular horse? What happens to the babies that you care for, protect and love and then send out into the world? I think people need to really think about the responsibility that comes with bringing new life into the world.
The Arabian's longevity and usefulness is beyond 20 years. In the culture of the show ring, in general, the has been is the freshly matured horse
It is a very sad fact that there is a "wastage factor" in America, regarding riding horses. That is, horses who have been ridden to unsoundness because they have been pushed and pushed beyond their means, to deliver movements that their bodies cannot deliver, due to improper training or because they are too young. It is not a problem unique to the Arabian Horse, it is a problem in America with all horses, more to do with people who have the means to buy horses and possess very little knowledge regarding horse care and training. What is realistic and what is not realistic? What price do horses pay for fame and glory? Something needs to be said for the Spanish Riding School and the fact that new riders are trained on the longe line for up to 2 years and do not ride bridled horses until they develop an independent seat.
While all that I have mentioned is negative and maybe a bit discouraging, these are not new problems in America, they are ongoing problems that continue without resolution. I will maintain that these are very exciting times for all horse owners/enthusiasts, as we have so much knowledge/information/choices available, which was not in existence even 5 years ago. We know so much more in terms of veterinary care, nutrition, training, behavior that should insure better care and management of our beloved horses.