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Dr Daniel Wigger
post Sep 29 2003, 11:27 AM
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Liebes Forum,

nun hat sich Oliver schon so eine Mühe gemacht, den Artikel zu schreiben - also fange ich mal mit der Diskussion an. Hier also meine Meinung:

Ich oute mich als Nicht-Reiter, den Ägypter aus rein ästhetischen und kulturell-historischen Gründen und vielleicht einer Art tierzüchterischen Neugier heraus faszinieren. Der Erhaltungsaspekt ist mir weitaus wichtiger als die Reitbarkeit. Trotzdem MUSS die Reitbarkeit und ein dafür erforderliches Exterieur Selektionskriterium bleiben, da sie auch für den Beduinen überlebenswichtig waren. Daher begrüße ich den Vorstoß des VZAP, die Rittigkeitsprüfung mit in die Hengstbeurteilung einfließen zu lassen. Allerdings müssen wir uns fragen, ob mit der europäischen Reitweise und dem dafür geeigneten Exterieur nicht eine Selektionsrichtung eingeschlagen wurde, die dem Erhaltungsaspekt zuwiderläuft. Ein schwungvoller (Show-)Trab war sicherlich für ein Wüstenpferd eine vollkommen fremde, unangemessen energiezehrende Fortbewegungsart, die auch bei den Bodenverhältnissen (steiniges Hochland, Sandwüste) der Arabia deserta nur selten angebracht war und eben eine Winkelung und Bemuskelung eines Warmblutfundaments erfordert. Der Originalaraber, wie wir ihn aus Berichten, historischen Kunstwerken und alten Fotos her kennen, hatte aber eben ein ganz anderes Gebäude. Angepaßt an eine möglichst kraftsparende Fortbewegung über endlos lange Strecken in steinigem oder sandigen Gelände hat sich eine Fortbewegungsart entwickelt, die wie bei Wildtieren des gleichen Lebensraumes aus kurzen Galopp- und Schrittfolgen besteht. Hierzu waren ein kurzer Rücken, lange Beine und steile Gliedmaßenwinkel ideal, weil die Hinterhand schnell und ohne große Kraftübertragung sozusagen unter den Schwerpunkt pendeln konnte. Die Kruppe war kurz und gerade, weil dazu kein großer Muskelapparat mit langen Hebeln erforderlich war. Aus Gleichgewichtsgründen waren die Hälse dieser im Quadrat- oder gar Hochrechteckformat stehenden Pferde eher kurz und hoch angesetzt.

Man möge mich korrigieren, wenn ich auf dem Holzpfad wandele, aber die "Umzüchtung" des Originalarabers in einen modernen Kulturaraber mit "Reitpferdepoints" nach europäischen Wünschen begann sicher schon zu Zeiten der RAS unter dem englischen Kavallerieveterinär Dr. Branch.

Ich habe nichts dagegen, nur für mich (und vielleicht andere auch) stellt sich manchmal die Frage, WAS das Zuchtziel eigentlich sein soll. Denn zwischen den Ansprüchen moderner Reiterei und der Erhaltung des Originalarabers liegen nun einmal Welten ...
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Kul Hussun al-Me...
post Sep 29 2003, 11:50 PM
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What an article! Thank you Oliver - now if those "NOT classic breeders" here in the United States could see it... smile.gif I agree with almost everything in it.

Where has the movement gone in Egyptian horses? So few floating trots are found, the "stop--stop" movement with snorts and curled tail carriage - where has it gone? Where has the reaching trot - suspended movement gone?

If you are breeding for the next *classic Arabian horse* and your program is based on this, using the bloodlines of the Straight Egyptian, you should be looking for overall classic (extreme) type, good pedigree, refinement, correct conformation, a good disposition, and GOOD movement. An extreme horse without good movement isn't worth very much to someone who wants to breed the next *classic Arabian horse.*

The three most important things in breeding for a classic horse are:
1. OVERALL TYPE- how often we are short of it these days! especially in the United States. You see all these competitive horses, but they have long, straight heads and ill-conformed legs! To me, that is not what you want to preserve in the already so-tiny gene pool of the magnificent Straight Egyptian Arabian.
2. GOOD PEDIGREE- and they need it! A lesson that is learnt by everyone is that the popular way isn't always the best to go. One The Minstril line may be all right, if you outcross the other blood and do not breed back to it. I, for one, cannot stand to look at contaminated pedigrees with three or more lines to The Minstril and Thee Desperado! Most horses nowadays have AT LEAST that many lines to Nazeer - which is obviously quite different. He was a legend and was a lovely horse who was, as they say, almost perfect.
3. MOVEMENT- and this to me is very important. We have lost so much of it. Where is the flagging tail and suspended, floating trot? How could we have lost it? How? Why?

It is wonderful and terrible, at the same time, that movement is not hereditary. *Sakr (mentioned in Oliver's article) was the sire of Nabiel, who was the grandsire of our main stallion, Royal Phariel (Royal Jalliel [Ansata Imperial X *Pharrah] Royal Pharriel [NABIEL X *Pharrah]) and our future herd sire, Sihr Fanous (Taher Sihr [El Hadiyyah X RA Jehan] Fakiha [NABIEL X Foula]). With Phariel (the Ansata Imperial & double *Pharrah grandson besides Nabiel), he definitely inherited his pedigree's movement. Ansata Imperial, his paternal grandsire, was a really nice mover when he was younger and with the blood of *Sakr, it was sure to make a good-moving foal, and the beauty and lovely movement of the highly esteemed *Pharrah - all into one cross - our Phariel. With Sihr Fanous, you have an El Hadiyyah & Nabiel grandson. El Hadiyyah is also a pretty fine mover for another outstanding mover.

Extreme type and refinement are very important in our program. Without these, correct conformation usually is not present and the picture of the classic Arabian horse is not in our minds. Pedigree is also very important, but nowadays the popular trend is what most folks go for and completely forget the rarer bloodlines. The populars are often not as classic as the rares! I don't want to compare horses, but just take the bay stallion Thee Desperado and the bay stallion Amir El Fareed* (bred by E. Dieter of JEVA Farms and exported to Saudi Arabia). Do they compare? While Thee Desperado has the highly-sought-after pedigree that most breeders nowadays (half of whom are NOT classic breeders), seek for their money-making program. On the other hand, some Desperado get can be quite nice. Now compare him to Amir El Fareed. You have a Western-looking, maybe Polish-looking stallion with minimal type and refinement and definitely NOT an exotic head - and you have a stallion, straight from the desert.... Amir El Fareed. His pedigree is not extremely popular (El Norus X Bint Hafarrah), but he is a picturesque legend with awfully beautiful foals. No offense to Desperado owners... cool.gif

Thank you again, Oliver, for an article that needs to be posted on every breeding lab door - is this the best cross possible to create a classic Arabian horse? Will the foal have the type, the refinement, the movement that is so important and were three strong characteristics years ago in Arabia?
rolleyes.gif
Hope I stated what I meant to say! huh.gif
D

Kul Hussun al-Melik Arabians: All the King's Horses
Standing Royal Phariel by Royal Jalliel (Ansata Imperial X *Pharrah) out of Royal Pharriel (Nabiel X *Pharrah) 1993 grey, Dahman Shahwan
Akdar Brins by HIA Sud Abnus (Ahadd X RG Selene) out of RA Jehan (AK El Zahra Moniet X BintBint Tuhotmos) 1999 black bay, Dahman Shahwan
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Posts in this topic
- Dr Daniel Wigger   Born To Perform   Sep 29 2003, 11:27 AM
- - Babs   Habe den Artikel gerade gelesen und im Geiste viel...   Sep 29 2003, 11:32 AM
- - Steffi   Ich meine jeder soll machen was er mag. Am Ende re...   Sep 29 2003, 11:39 AM
- - Jens   Lieber Dr. Wigger, das was Sie schreiben, empfinde...   Sep 29 2003, 12:01 PM
- - Hannes   hannes Habe die Meinungen alle mir durch den Kopf ...   Sep 29 2003, 12:27 PM
- - Jürgen   das ist ein guter punkt. wer seine fohlen auf den ...   Sep 29 2003, 12:47 PM
- - corbinmk   Good article. Why wouldn't the breeders utili...   Sep 29 2003, 01:01 PM
- - Oliver   So viele Meinungen, so viele gute Argumente für je...   Sep 29 2003, 01:34 PM
- - corbinmk   Oliver, yes, you did. It stated that he was the f...   Sep 29 2003, 02:23 PM
- - hlsmaripa   Dear Oliver, Excellent article, I agree totally...   Sep 29 2003, 02:23 PM
- - HLM   good morning everybody Most interesting conversat...   Sep 29 2003, 03:06 PM
- - Guest_Sara   QUOTE (HLM @ Sep 29 2003, 04:06 PM)I was not ...   Sep 29 2003, 04:01 PM
- - Ralph   Oliver: This article is thoughtful and underscore...   Sep 29 2003, 04:21 PM
- - HLM   Ralph it is true what you are saying. I dont know...   Sep 29 2003, 04:48 PM
- - Ralph   Hansi: I have to disagree with you. The priorit...   Sep 29 2003, 05:10 PM
- - HLM   Ralph read my post again, I said "etc". absolutely...   Sep 29 2003, 07:04 PM
- - Abbasiyah   KUDOS TO OLIVER on "Born to Perform"! Oliver,...   Sep 29 2003, 08:01 PM
- - Ralph   I am having a senior moment...PLEASE STAND BY   Sep 29 2003, 08:32 PM
- - Mary M   I disagree entirely that we have to breed an "eith...   Sep 29 2003, 09:44 PM
- - Mary M   Wind N Fire   Sep 29 2003, 09:45 PM
- - Guest_Gast   Der Markt für arabische Pferde liegt ja wohl haupt...   Sep 29 2003, 10:09 PM
- - An American Breeder   Hello All: First, a HUGE kudos (thanks) to Olive...   Sep 30 2003, 12:13 AM
- - HLM   good evening everybody It appears that all posts ...   Sep 30 2003, 12:45 AM
- - petersen   Guten Morgen, Ein Thema, das mir als Distanzreiter...   Sep 30 2003, 04:35 AM
- - Anjuli   An Oliver! Über Deine kritische Anmerkung zum ...   Sep 30 2003, 06:24 AM
- - Layla   Hallo, Sie sprechen einen sehr wichtigen Punkt an,...   Sep 30 2003, 07:09 AM
- - Guest_El Sabu   Herr Petersen wir haben vor einigen Jahren auch ei...   Sep 30 2003, 11:21 AM
- - HLM   Good morning everybody Ich erfuhr dass Herr Beste...   Sep 30 2003, 01:06 PM
- - petersen   Guten Morgen Hansi, Im Fundament hat Makib eine gu...   Sep 30 2003, 01:23 PM
- - HLM   Lieber Lutz |dann habe ich es falsch verstan...   Sep 30 2003, 05:56 PM
- - Copi   Hallo, auch wir hatten letztes Jahr das gleiche. A...   Sep 30 2003, 07:30 PM
- - HLM   Hi Sarah Many experts watched the show and came t...   Sep 30 2003, 08:32 PM
- - Guest_AndreaO   Wir drehen uns im Kreis!!!! Denn g...   Oct 1 2003, 06:46 AM
- - HLM   Liebe Andrea I habe immer etwas gegen ein "Richte...   Oct 1 2003, 10:51 AM
- - diane   Oliver – well written! My thoughts - peer pr...   Oct 1 2003, 11:48 AM
- - HLM   Dear Diane YOu said it well. However, not all can...   Oct 1 2003, 12:26 PM
- - Uwe   I doubt that shows will draw more spectators with ...   Oct 1 2003, 12:36 PM
- - HLM   Dear Oliver Where do I find the articel you wrote,...   Oct 1 2003, 12:54 PM
- - almuntaha   Hi Hansi, in the international section you will f...   Oct 1 2003, 01:10 PM
- - Thorsten   No Hansi, you have to click the "BACKGROUND" butto...   Oct 1 2003, 01:19 PM
- - HLM   Thanks christian, I will look at it. Have a nice ...   Oct 1 2003, 02:06 PM
- - Dennis   I can't understand why Mrs Heck-Melnyk always ...   Oct 2 2003, 08:16 AM
- - Liz Salmon   Great thought provoking article Oliver—congratulat...   Oct 2 2003, 01:03 PM
- - Ralph   Dear Liz: I read your post and I wanted to unders...   Oct 2 2003, 01:49 PM
- - HLM   Good morning Liz It appears to me that some peopl...   Oct 2 2003, 02:02 PM
- - Liz Salmon   I'll have a go at discribing true gaits for an...   Oct 2 2003, 02:39 PM
- - Ralph   Liz: Thank you for the very thorough descriptions...   Oct 2 2003, 03:12 PM
- - HLM   thanks Liz, this is well explained. Conformation i...   Oct 2 2003, 03:20 PM
- - Liz Salmon   Ralph, did you got to the Sport Horse Nationals ? ...   Oct 2 2003, 03:28 PM
- - Ralph   Post withdrawn   Oct 2 2003, 04:20 PM
- - Guest_tous crins   QUOTE as I find your horses resembling Thoroughbre...   Oct 2 2003, 06:12 PM
- - Ralph   Post withdrawn   Oct 2 2003, 06:26 PM
- - ema   Ralph, I went back and read your post... and the ...   Oct 2 2003, 06:41 PM
- - Ralph   Post withdrawn   Oct 2 2003, 06:59 PM
- - Liz Salmon   Julia, you are absolutely correct in saying that—q...   Oct 2 2003, 07:17 PM
- - Guest   QUOTE When I look at Hansi's horses, everythin...   Oct 2 2003, 07:20 PM
- - HLM   Hi Julia, Christine and all Why I refused to repl...   Oct 2 2003, 07:21 PM
- - ema   LOL Ralph, I have read this thread from its begi...   Oct 2 2003, 07:25 PM
- - HLM   Hi Liz I just read the posts, replied once, and a...   Oct 2 2003, 07:47 PM
- - Ralph   Well, Hansi, you have a point, in all that you hav...   Oct 2 2003, 08:34 PM
- - ELAcrisi   Born to perform ? How gentle are theses horses t...   Oct 2 2003, 09:09 PM
- - ELAcrisi   Do you think they suffer not to perform (for human...   Oct 2 2003, 09:39 PM
- - HLM   Hi Elacresi that is a lovely photo and I can just...   Oct 2 2003, 11:06 PM
- - Layman 2   Ralph, don't stop posting. Others share your v...   Oct 3 2003, 12:16 AM
- - diane   Most of the regulars on this forum will appreciate...   Oct 3 2003, 12:43 AM
- - Sylvia   Hello, I´m from Germany and speak for the German ...   Oct 3 2003, 05:53 PM
- - Guest   To be honest, I don't really understand the cr...   Oct 3 2003, 06:16 PM
- - Sylvia   Dear Guest It is too bad , that there are no spor...   Oct 3 2003, 06:46 PM
- - HLM   Hi Guest Your idea is excellent, except for one t...   Oct 3 2003, 06:55 PM
- - Liz Salmon   The US Sport Horse classes are not just in hand. T...   Oct 3 2003, 07:02 PM
- - Guest_phanilah   After reading Diane's post, I deleted what I h...   Oct 3 2003, 07:37 PM
- - Guest   Whew, lot's of opinions, I'm afraid to say...   Oct 4 2003, 12:17 AM
- - Kiyoko   Changing the minds of the popular breeders out the...   Oct 4 2003, 04:03 AM
- - Guest   Again, even with the TB , if these horses aren...   Oct 4 2003, 11:28 AM
- - HLM   HI Kioko I dont know which area of the USA/Canada...   Oct 4 2003, 05:29 PM
- - Guest   May I suggest we put things into perspective. S...   Oct 4 2003, 06:05 PM
- - Guest_tous crins   Hi Ralph, I must apologize. I was looking at one ...   Oct 4 2003, 07:45 PM
- - Guest   The answer to this dilemma is simple.   Oct 4 2003, 08:40 PM
- - HLM   dear Christina You should not have to apologize a...   Oct 5 2003, 01:42 PM
- - Iris   Hansi, there is no one more fond of criticizing ho...   Oct 5 2003, 03:13 PM
- - Sylvia   Quote: "My opinion, which is just one opinion, I d...   Oct 5 2003, 03:41 PM
- - ema   There are the people that we, in the south (USA & ...   Oct 5 2003, 05:29 PM
- - HLM   Dear Iris I am sorry to correct you, but what I d...   Oct 5 2003, 05:35 PM
- - Ralph   Hansi: Tonight, I read the post you wrote to Chri...   Oct 6 2003, 02:38 AM
- - kayemgal   I have posted before on this wonderful website, an...   Oct 6 2003, 05:52 AM
- - HLM   good morning dear Kayemgal I agree whith what you...   Oct 6 2003, 01:19 PM
- - Iris   QUOTE (HLM @ Oct 5 2003, 06:35 PM)Dear Iris ...   Oct 6 2003, 01:57 PM
- - Iris   QUOTE (Iris @ Oct 6 2003, 02:57 PM)QUOTE (HLM...   Oct 6 2003, 02:26 PM
- - HLM   Dear Iris Am I misunderstanding you? you made a s...   Oct 6 2003, 03:00 PM
- - Iris   As a matter of fact we have met and I've seen ...   Oct 6 2003, 03:39 PM
- - HLM   Dear Iris I can not remember meeting you before, n...   Oct 6 2003, 04:18 PM
- - Guest   Hansi, With all due respect.... Serenity (Defin...   Oct 6 2003, 04:57 PM
- - Meitou   Big applause for guest! A big THANK YOU too.   Oct 6 2003, 05:02 PM
- - HLM   Again, "unregistered guest". why dont you sign you...   Oct 6 2003, 08:24 PM
- - Guest   This is meant with a bit of encouragement. We nee...   Oct 6 2003, 09:55 PM
- - HLM   Dear Forum readers I said it before" none can tea...   Oct 6 2003, 11:52 PM
- - petersen   Guten Morgen, Sie ist für die Leistung geboren, un...   Oct 10 2003, 07:06 AM
- - ALMASE   Not a straight Egyptians, but just came across an ...   Oct 10 2003, 04:13 PM
- - jörgen preuss   Der Sieger im H.H. Sheikh Hamdan`s Tripel Comp...   Oct 13 2003, 11:17 AM
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