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> Born To Perform
HLM
post Sep 30 2003, 05:56 PM
Post #31


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Lieber Lutz

|dann habe ich es falsch verstanden.wir haben noch nie ein Pferd besessen oder gezuechtet welches nicht ein sauberes Fundament hatte. Und vom Type, von welchem sprechen denn wir alle? Den "In" type oder ob ein Pferd seiner Breed Ehre macht und wie ein Araber aussieht, ganz gleich in welchem Alter. Wenn man grundsaetzlich nur den "In" type als Grundlage nimmt, dann koennen wir gerne einmal die offspring zaehlen und damit tausende von anderen wirklich type Araber herauswerfen.
Uebrigens dieser "In" type kam hier noch nie an.
Man richtete wirklich auch wie es sein soll, und mit ganz weningen Ausnahmen kamen discrepancies vor.

Ich habe oft erwaehnt, dass es verschidene "types" gibt.
Alleine zwischen "antar" und "Sameh" und "Morafic" haben wir drei "typen". dazu nehmen wir dann noch die Babsons, die Davenports, die Doyeles und wiederum haben wir anderen "types" doch sehen alle wie "Araber" aus ,unmistakenly.

Wenn man fundamente beurteilt, denkt man sofort daran was die beine aushalten oder nicht aushalten koennen,unter Berucksichtigung das ein Pferd auch leistungsfaehig sein soll. Da einige faults keinen Kummer machen wuerden, andere auf jeden Fall, wie schlechte Sehnen, - in den Vorderbeinen- oder flimpsy hocks, die ja das meiste von dem Gewicht des Pferdes und Reiter tragen. Wenn das Pferd dann noch auch Kinderschuhen (winzige hoofs "im Vergleich zum Koerper stehen, dann kann man wirklich nicht viel von einem derartigen Pferd verlangen. Was tut ein uberlanger Schwanenhals, den man bis auf den Schweif zureckbiegen kann, und der rest des Koerpers geht immer noch gerade aus. Versucht das doch mal im Gelaende, ueber spruenge etc. Das ist doch lebensgefaehrlich.

Nun das ist meine Meinung aus Erfahrungen, und duerften nicht die anderer posters sein.

Liebe Gruesse
Hansi


PS.Ich habe aber die Noten von Herrn Denarts hengst gesehen und fiel fast um. fast alle lagen zwischen 2-3 Noten tiefer. Und ich hatte meine Brille an. So etwas gibt es doch nicht.
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Copi
post Sep 30 2003, 07:30 PM
Post #32


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Hallo,
auch wir hatten letztes Jahr das gleiche. Aufgrund nur "ausreichend " (5) im Rasse und Geschlechtstyp, brauchten wir unseren Hengst nicht mehr in der Halle vorstellen (was wir leider auch nicht getan haben, heute würden wir es machen), also Rausschmiß am harten Boden, obwohl er keine Note unter 5 hatte (Fundament sogar die Note 6). Ich muß zugeben, unserer Hengst (selber vorgeführt) reißt nicht die Augen auf und bläht die Nüstern wenn man ihn vor ein paar Menschen hinstellt. Er braucht schon ein bisschen mehr Aufregung (sollte am harten Boden auch nicht gefragt sein, dafür ist die Halle da). Komisch ist nur das er ca. 6 Wochen vor der Hengsteintragung von Mitgliedern der Körkomission auf einer Schau in allen 5 Kriterien die Note 17 bekam, und die Herren sich länger Zeit gelassen haben das Pferd zu beurteilen als bei der Eintragung. Dieses Jahr haben wir unseren Hengst nochmals auf einer Schau gezeigt auf der er von anerkannten Richtern einstimmig die Noten 18 im Typ, Kopf und Hals, und Gängen bekam, und nochmals einheitlich die 17 im Gebäude. Bei der Schau dieses Jahr war er nicht besonders vorbereitet, sondern von der Weide geholt und nur gewaschen. Ich verstehe das ganze nicht so ganz. Denn wenn die Richter auf Schauen einfach nur so mit hohen Noten rumschmeißen, ohne sich irgendwelche Gedanken zu machen welchen Wert eine Note haben soll. dann sollten die Pferde doch lieber gleich nur rangiert werden wie in den Fohlenklassen. Ich gehe gerne auf Schauen, möchte meine Pferde aber auch einigermaßen objektiv bewertet haben, ansonsten kann ich mich auch auf die Weide stellen, und meine Pferde durch meine rosarote Brille bewerten. Denn die Schau sollte nicht nur als Zeitverteib dienen. dafür ist die Freizeit die man hat zu wertvoll und die Unkosten einer Schau zu teuer.

Manuela

P.S. Ein Foto von der VHS (M.Groger)
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HLM
post Sep 30 2003, 08:32 PM
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Hi Sarah

Many experts watched the show and came to their conclusions. It is no use of trompeting names here,because such names are known.

What bothers me a bit that consistently the same judges judge one show after another, examining the same horses again and again, with some exceptions, when new ones are added, as appaently it took place in aachen.

I feel, that no horse should enter under any judge, which has judged such horse during past 6-8 months before.
While judges could make sound decisions, it is possible that errors incurr and a "Pinned down" horse will not have a chance again. A trainer once told me in Germany" This horse got 14 points for legs/fundament" and will now get always such points". I looked at that particular horse personally at its home and was amazed. This filly had excellent legs and movement and should have been given at least a 17, considering the now-aday judging system.

But I also saw at the Asil club show a top pinned horse ging so wide behind, it would need a six foot door get through. Yet, it received 17 points for this movement.
Matter of fact, most all received basically the same points,
which is truly amazing.

We can all complain, talk until we are blue in the face.
Only if concerned breeders/owners come forward and object to the present form of judging and or system, nothing will be done. But most of all, to change the "Annerkennung" system/judges which appears to be
failing.

Have a nice day
Hansi
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Guest_Guest_AndreaO_*
post Oct 1 2003, 06:46 AM
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Wir drehen uns im Kreis!!!! Denn genau dewegen gehen auch Hengste in die Zucht, die nicht prämiert sind.
Weil wir nämlich an der Richtigkeit der Entscheidung bei der Eintragung zweifeln! Vielleicht zu Recht??? <_<
Vielleicht auch nicht blink.gif .
Gruß, Andrea
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HLM
post Oct 1 2003, 10:51 AM
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Liebe Andrea

I habe immer etwas gegen ein "Richten" welches
conflict of interest nachweisen kann.

Richter fuer Eintragungen sollten selber keine Araber Zuechter sein oder von Araber Zuechtern bezahlt werden oder strong connections mit bestimmten Zuechtern/Eigentuemern haben. Wenn ungerechte Richtungen stattfanden, soll der Eigentuemer dass Recht haben das Pferd von einer independent Richtergruppe
nachrichten lassen und deratige Findungen dem Publikum bekanntgeben, genau wie eben "Nichteintragungen" bekannt gegeben werden.

Meine strenge Meinung

Hansi biggrin.gif
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diane
post Oct 1 2003, 11:48 AM
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Oliver – well written! My thoughts - peer pressure. Peer pressure to conform is taking the reality out of the sE specifically and the Arabian Horse generally. I really do feel the essence of the misdirection involving the Arabian Horse is in the Arabian Horse Standard. People are not taught to review the Standard to extent that it allows (somewhat) for the variances the Breed offers, the image speaks a thousand words – the question being are these the right words? Should the words be read, and the image ignored?

I do agree – it is possible to have beauty and performance ability. But what is “beautiful” now wasn’t necessarily the beauty when the desertbred horse was first imported to the west. Compare photos and descriptions of people who were there. Pretty horses were the exception not necessarily the rule. These days we’ve made it the rule. And there’s the peer pressure to conform. If you don’t conform, ostracisation usually happens for one reason or another, with or without malice.

One thought though… the Bedouin, to my knowledge, only needed a horse which could perform well in raid (ghazu), be frugal and loyal. They were a source of income, a mode of travel and on occasions a food source. Exceptions were noted in history in various ways, as great athletes are today. But not all humans as Arabian horses are elite athletes. The tendency however, is to expect the Arabian Horse to all be elite.
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HLM
post Oct 1 2003, 12:26 PM
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Dear Diane

YOu said it well. However, not all can be "elite" this is why there is a grading system, IN ANYTHING IN LIFE. Grading is done among race horses on the track, etc.
Grading is done in human performances as well.

But it is the "grading" which should be performed accurately. those who have this task, do not have an easy job at all and will always be under scrunity. Their honor and reputation is at stake. They carry great responsibilities. They can either make or break a horse, or for that matter, anything which is being graded.

Have a nice day
Hansi
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Guest_Uwe_*
post Oct 1 2003, 12:36 PM
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I doubt that shows will draw more spectators with performance competition. As I saw it in aachen this time were I saw compete really excellent riders infront of empty stands. And stands they had! Most decided to watch the halter competition.
Thank you Oliver for quoting Mr. Douglas Marshall in your article. I find it amazing that he put so much empasize on sound legs like von Szandtner did. Food for thought for all of us!
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HLM
post Oct 1 2003, 12:54 PM
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Dear Oliver
Where do I find the articel you wrote, many are refering too?

Thanks kindly
Hansi
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almuntaha
post Oct 1 2003, 01:10 PM
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Hi Hansi,

in the international section you will find Olivers article "born to perform" or " where have all the muqatamms gone" wink.gif

Kind regards

Christian Kesseböhmer
Al Muntaha Arabians
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Guest_Thorsten_*
post Oct 1 2003, 01:19 PM
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No Hansi, you have to click the "BACKGROUND" button to get to this article. smile.gif Douglas B. Marshall was described by you often as a true horseman and from what he said about legs I say "Yes!!!! He is!!!"
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HLM
post Oct 1 2003, 02:06 PM
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Thanks christian, I will look at it.

Have a nice day
Hansi
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Dennis
post Oct 2 2003, 08:16 AM
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I can't understand why Mrs Heck-Melnyk always is active in all discussions with huge amount of posts even when she
a) was not at Aachen and never saw the "whipping experiment" for herself (see Aachen threads)
cool.gif had not read the article "Born to perform"
It would be wiser if you would first try to gather the right information and later potsting your opinion.
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Liz Salmon
post Oct 2 2003, 01:03 PM
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Great thought provoking article Oliver—congratulations. I think that you are absolutely right. There are very few American SE farms that consistantly produce their horses under saddle in some division or other. I frequently see Imperial horses competing in Dressage and Show Hack. Jennifer Parsons from Canada does a lot with her horses in Performance, as does Martha Lucas—President of the Pyramid Society, with endurance. Hansi breeds good SE performance horses, but I have yet to see more than one competing in performance so far, but then she's in Florida and I'm in Texas.

The performance classes at the Egyptian Event have improved greatly since the first time I attended ten years ago. They have since added dressage and endurance. Being a riding person myself, I feel that it's essential that horses are bred with form to function in mind, as well as being true to type. Liz Salmon
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Ralph
post Oct 2 2003, 01:49 PM
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Dear Liz:

I read your post and I wanted to underscore a few words that you express:

"I feel that it's essential that horses are bred with from to function in mind, as well as being true to type"

Alone, this statement might not be especially meaningful but you use a few examples, like Imperial, Etaya, and Whitehaven Plantation to further illustrate what it means to be a good athlete and yet, still have the unmistakeable Arabian Horse look. These breeders have not compromised Arabian Horse type to get better conformation or better movement. Their horses can be on the grounds of an open show and would never be mistaken for Thoroughbreds or a warmblood cross.

And that is my concern with the sporthorse movement. Don Stine has pictures of the Sporthorse Nationals on his website. I looked at some of the pictures last night and felt that my concern is a bit justified. Maybe those are unfair words for me to express and I realize that in order to change some of the unhealthy trends, one has to start somewhere but these horses....Oh my. Where is the essence of Arabian Horse type?

When the saddleseat movement took hold in America, suddenly, all the unique characteristics of the Arabian Horse did not matter. People wanted the saddleseat action. So, breeders started paying more attention to "park" and "English Pleasure" movement and the conformation that enables horses to be more successful for that kind of movement. They not only changed our breed but convinced many people that it was true Arabian movement. The effects of this thinking still plague us today.

So, here we have another movement. And will breeders start producing horses that have "sporthorse movement" at the expense of Arabian Horse type? From where I stand, I see another "yellow brick road" that leads to disappointment, as we begin yet another fad that jeopardizes the unique look that makes this breed famous and unlike any other.

So, as we all exchange opinions on this forum and lament the loss of a good moving horse, I hope we understand how critical Arabian Horse type is and what a devastating loss it would be to lose the identifying trademark of the breed.

Thanks Liz for being one of the only people in the last few posts to mention type positively.

Ralph
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