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> Born To Perform
HLM
post Oct 4 2003, 05:29 PM
Post #76


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HI Kioko

I dont know which area of the USA/Canada you are referring to, but the ones I am seeing (we have about 1000 Tb farms in Florida in our area) have IMPROVED. 15-20 years ago there were possibly less Tb's, and again depending on the area. florida statistically has more TB's then Kentucky and more cattle than Texas. Imagine. (Asphis)

As far as I can remember, TB's were only used for breeding on, if both sire and dam were accomplished, and the more black type, the more valuable. (Black type, means winning stakes/champi0nships etc) hos which cut not cut the mustard were sold to warmblood breeders, for the use of dressage, jumping, 3-day eventing etc. or went into ALPO.

the Tb breeders are extremely careful in our area,breed from the best, stand the best and prices at our auctions range anywhere from $ 300O to 2 million dollars for yearlings. At the select sales in Kentucky they range from $ 20,000 to ten million for yearlings.
Now top this with arabians, if you can.
there are still stud fees in Kentucky of $ 350,000- one jump- if not conceived- too bad. And of course NO AI*.

Have a nice day
Hansi


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Guest_Guest_*
post Oct 4 2003, 06:05 PM
Post #77





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May I suggest we put things into perspective.

Stress training, sporthorse, breakdown, political judges, laymen, insults, blah blah blah.........I am getting a headache.

First we must 'choose' to be polite to one another. Second we must 'choose' to respect we may have differences. Just as we 'choose' the horses we breed and ride, and 'choose' what are our top priorities in horses.

Apparently some feel you must be a rider to appreciate a good horse and you must do this for half a century to be good at it.
Some disagree. This is not a small circle of breeders anymore, there are many great breeders and many great types of Arabians.

As was said on another forum you don't have to be a painter to appreciate a masterpiece and don't have to be an author to appreciate a good book. You don't have to be a rider to breed a good horse.

There is a lid for every pot, and a horse for every person.

My opinion, which is just one opinion, I do not believe the Arabian horse should move like a warmblood. They are not peanut pushing Quarterhorses, not gigantic monsters that trudge through the ground, like a warmblood. Where your wineglass shakes as they Piaffe down the centerline at a warmblood dressage show. They are not racking horses, gaited horses, saddlebred horses, or bull dogging horses. Put a warmblood in the desert and he'd probably die of heat stroke, put him in the mountains, and he'd shiver himself to under 300 pounds. Give him a date to eat, and he'd probably colic. Those horses do not even have the simple ability to exist on their own. I've yet to meet a warmblood or a thoroughbred that would even look me in the eye. They don't have the ability to bond with people. They are machines that perform from cue.

Arabians are a breed all of their own, and cannot be compared ....to anything. Within the purebred lines, we have different strains, families and influences that are charastic of each. Some families are different from others. Why must we constantly try to place them all in one simple easily defined clean cut catagory??

The Arabian is spirited, magical, honorary, extremely intelligent and not for the faint of heart. Let them be already. They dance , not under our command but on their own.
Quit trying to braid them up, whip them up, put them under glass, and just let them exists in their true spirit and nature. They are the mount of kings, and the mount of peasants.

The show ring is 'opinion'. You all know what is said of opinion. We are not the Spanish riding school. The Arabian came long before the Spanish riding school. Lippazan horses came from the Arabian. Why must we live by their standards??? Ridiculous.
The Arabian is THE FIRST standard that all others should strive to live up to.

I refuse to bow my head to any other breed of horse, and I refuse to partake in the belief that we must as breeders, be judged under the standards set forth by other breeds. Bull !!

You want to turn the Arabian into the warmblood?? Make him perform in Dressage as if it is a challenge for him?? Make him walk like a saddlebred as if this is a challenge for him? Make him pose like Lassie the dog at Westminster on a leash for a treat?? Show me a TB or a warmblood you would trust with your life to take you across the dessert. Personally, I would not insult my Arabian and tell him he is no good unless he can move like a TB or a warmblood. You know what may be part of the problem with where Arabian horses are going today?? Possibly they are becoming 'overly domesticated'.
It's like the difference between a Timberwolf, and a French Poodle.

You show me the most broken down Arabian, and he is still by far the horse with the biggest heart, the biggest will, and the biggest natural ability to overcome any obstacle you put in front of him.

When I was a kid we used to play chicken on horseback at the riding stable. I had a little Arab mare, and my friend had a QH pony. We'd ride full speed at each other from opposite ends of the arena. EVERY time we were just about to crash head on into one another, her QH would dart off to the side. The Arab would have run full speed into that QH pony if he didn't move out of his way. She had no fear, only problem she had was she trusted me too much. Of course we got caught playing this game by our instructor and got in big trouble. But that is where I fell in love with the breed. They will take you anywhere you dare to go, and I mean that in more ways than one.
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Guest_Guest_tous crins_*
post Oct 4 2003, 07:45 PM
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Hi Ralph,

I must apologize. I was looking at one or two Serenity pictures that might give the impression you were describing earlier. Those are however only pictures and I would love to see them in the flesh. Most of the pictures din't give that impression.
I am sorry if I appeared abrupt but your post shocked me because my memory of those horses in a thread of the old forum only sreamed athleticism and balance.

Christine
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Guest_Guest_*
post Oct 4 2003, 08:40 PM
Post #79





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The answer to this dilemma is simple.
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HLM
post Oct 5 2003, 01:42 PM
Post #80


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dear Christina

You should not have to apologize at all. there are people in this world who purposely and vicously try to detroy the Arabian horses. This goes in particular for those. who critize a horses by name, they have never seen in the flesh. those remaks have driven many people away not only from forums but also from the arabian horses. In some cases such critizizers themselves have never accomplished anything in life or with horses.

While everybody is entitled to give their opinion, when it comes to statements, these should be accurate and verifiable. I have read numerous posts in which individual Arbians were discussed by names, and in most all cases it appears that such people have indeed seen these horses in the flesh, and it also appears that many of them knew what they were talking about.

To the other poster, who claims that arabians do not have the movements of other breeds, may be has never seen any? the movement of horses, walk, trot,canter and gallop are identical in sequence, the only difference is that the Arabians are lightfooted in comparency. I dont believe that any owner of the warmbloods mentioned, would appreciate the remarks which were uncalled for.

It is too bad that nowadays few people go and visit farms, to see with their own eyes , in particular when these are close by.

to another poster who stated that people can become
experts-or are- in juding inanimate paitings or other art work, that is absolutely correct. However, it is removed from seeing things in the flesh. Here were are talking of a living,breazing thing, which does leave an impression.

I stated often, that I have yet to see an "ugly Arabian"
and never had a problem yet identifying an Asil Arabian horse as an "Arabian". the same goes for thousands of purebred Arabians of other bloodlines. In this regard, I have seen some of the Kubinec offspring in Hungary and was truly impressed with their quality and "type". But this also goes for most all Polish/russian/spanish/english
etc bred Arabians of which I have seen thousands over the past 65 years. I have even seen "Fetysz" (1924) who stood as premier stud at my Granfathers.

I maintain that honest critizizm is welcome, but please let it be by people who know what they are talking about
and willing to back it up.

all have a wonderful day

Hansi biggrin.gif
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Guest_Iris_*
post Oct 5 2003, 03:13 PM
Post #81





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Hansi, there is no one more fond of criticizing horses they have not seen in the flesh than yourself. Please remember that ethics are the same for everyone.
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Guest_Sylvia_*
post Oct 5 2003, 03:41 PM
Post #82





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Quote:
"My opinion, which is just one opinion, I do not believe the Arabian horse should move like a warmblood. They are not peanut pushing Quarterhorses, not gigantic monsters that trudge through the ground, like a warmblood. Where your wineglass shakes as they Piaffe down the centerline at a warmblood dressage show. They are not racking horses, gaited horses, saddlebred horses, or bull dogging horses. Put a warmblood in the desert and he'd probably die of heat stroke, put him in the mountains, and he'd shiver himself to under 300 pounds. Give him a date to eat, and he'd probably colic. Those horses do not even have the simple ability to exist on their own. I've yet to meet a warmblood or a thoroughbred that would even look me in the eye. They don't have the ability to bond with people. They are machines that perform from cue. "


Dear Guest,

but they can do it all. The Arabian breed has so many various types of conformation ! There are Arabians who are extremly good in reining , I always remeber "Jaborrs Impack " who is galopping on the fast circle with perfect headset while moving as elegant as cat.
Others do a good job as cutting horses. Others have natural talent for the "English classes" and others have all the talent to come to Grand-Prix-Level at Dressage. Some are extremly good jumpers and some even go five-gaited classes.
They are also good driving horses, trail horses, hunter and western-pleasure horses and so on. They just can do it all and therefore the Arabian is the most versatile horse on earth.
Now, your opinion of the warmblood I cannot share. Yes, I agree that many of them are sleepy, but there are also many with lots of personality, intelligence and the will to please . For example some weeks ago I saw an international jumping competition at the highest level (Ludger Beerbaum was first, by the way). One rider rode a ten year old stallion only with bosal and only had one mistake !
It just was a wonderful horse, and there are many of this kind. Some are even very very pretty, with beautiful eyes and lot´s of soul. And many of them really fight for their riders.

rolleyes.gif biggrin.gif
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ema
post Oct 5 2003, 05:29 PM
Post #83


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There are the people that we, in the south (USA & QH country) tend to sneer at a bit... they call our Arabians AY-Rabs, and give them credit for nothing but flightiness and craziness. We who love them know that there is little truth in those ideas... We don't want to have the same sort of prejudice (just wearing different "clothes") against other breeds that we struggle against smile.gif I have worked years ago with Thoroughbreds and found them courageous, though somewhat hot temperamentally sometimes, and not afraid to give you a good look in the eye.. they want to connect too! I am not familiar with Warmbloods except for the one time I went to a friend's barn where she raises and trains them. I did not find them dull at all, just BIG!! They had a certain beauty and my (yours too if they are Arabian!) horses would look like ponies beside them! I have worked some with QH and Saddlebred and TWH and have not found any breed to be dim-witted, though some individuals are... Within their "look" there is beauty and substance and courage and many times a comfortable ride too... just as it is in our own horses. We DON'T, imho, want to be like those who look down their noses at our crazy AY-Rabs, or we become no better than they... smile.gif

Even the most delicate and beautiful halter horse can excel at something under saddle. Not all horses are made for tough, long hours of training and riding and work. Why would most endurance riders seem to always be looking for the next horse? Some will make it, some won't over the long term. If we were to round up every horse that has leg faults or some other faults that make it less able than others, the killers would not be able to buy them all, and the delicacy of horse meat in Europe, dog food makers, and others who might make use of horses would be flooded!! No, there is no perfect horse out there... some have more serious problems than others. Some are made tough and strong and some more delicate. They can ALL perform! The only thing that guides us in this is our own "want-to" to get on and ride, or lack of it! If your life is halter and your horses are never ridden... that's ok. If you are a rider who thinks all, or many, halter horses are sissies, try them sometime... you could be surprised. But PLEASE give them all the benefit of the doubt!

Oliver wrote a good article and it is a wake up call for some of us. Others will read it and never change. Some horses will be trained for saddle work or driving, some will never leave the halter training behind to do more. It's ok... Kinda like a saying here in the USA (and maybe everywhere, I don't know) "I'm ok, You're ok" .... Our job is to do what we do best. If we are breeding, to breed the best possible... if we are riding to do our best and not look down on another's choice...

Our job is to promote our horses to the new folks out there as well as to each other.. if they want a horse for the kids to ride, someone with an Arabian will have one. If they want a show horse, some will have one. If they want an Eventing horse who can and will jump high and with courage, someone has it. If they want an endurance horse... well, you get the picture.... smile.gif To me, this is the most logical conclusion to come to. Then we work together to grow our breed and be able to bring in new blood (as in owners, not so much horses) with new and fresh ideas. Prices will go up some and/or stay up better because there is a demand for them... Let the prejudice fall by the wayside. We will all be better for it smile.gif

Just an opinion from the peanut gallery rolleyes.gif

Julia
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HLM
post Oct 5 2003, 05:35 PM
Post #84


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Dear Iris

I am sorry to correct you, but what I discribe- are horses which indeed I have seen in the flesh, thousands of them.
What I critizize in general, without mentioning names,
are conformation poins and of course those, who for one reason or another do not wish to test their breeding stock. and of course particular judging systems.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
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Ralph
post Oct 6 2003, 02:38 AM
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Hansi:

Tonight, I read the post you wrote to Christina for the first time and I am so shocked by your statements, that I don't really know how to address them. What is the right thing to say to you, in front of all these people?

Specifically, I draw your attention to the first paragraph:

QUOTE
"You should not have to apologize at all. there are people in this world who purposely and vicously try to detroy the Arabian horses. This goes in particular for those. who critize a horses by name, they have never seen in the flesh. those remaks have driven many people away not only from forums but also from the arabian horses.In some cases such critizizers themselves have never accomplished anything in life or with horses"


For someone who claims that I AM VICIOUS...these are some of the most brutal remarks that I have ever read on this forum. Since Christina is writing the apology to me and you are telling her that the apology is not necessary, it is very clear WHO you are talking about.

I am disappointed, sure, but smart enough to recognize the source from which these words come and can put these very hard words in perspective, especially when they attack my life and the accomplishments that I have made so far. Forget the horses for a minute...I have three great children and being a father is the biggest accomplishment that I can ever make. And I am a good one...I work hard at it.

I love these horses, I really do, but THIS is not worth it. This was supposed to be about fun and finding another way to be close to the horses that I love. Your words hit hard, at a difficult time, with my dad dying from a heart attack, very suddenly at the end of June. Nothing makes sense anymore, just like your words.

I have had fun and met some really great people and I hope that through email I can still talk with you all but unfortunately, not on this forum. It is too painful. And too negative.

Best wishes,

Ralph
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Guest_kayemgal_*
post Oct 6 2003, 05:52 AM
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I have posted before on this wonderful website, and decided to join in on this topic. What I notice in reading this whole thread in one sitting, in the passion in everyone's responses. We might disagree, but we all olve our horses. I think it is poosible to have type and performance in the same horse. I am lucky to have several in my backyard right now waiting to be fed as I write this. I think if you are extremely selective, do a lot of research in books, videos, and seeing horses in the flesh, and have a lot of luck you can have type and performance. My Ansata Ibn Sudan stallion out of a triple Fadjur mare has done halpter, open showmanship, English pleasure, dressage, and several 25 mile trail and mountain rides. He is sound and awesome at 25 years; I have owned him for 22 years. My AK El Maleek (*Refky x Fa Halima) daughter out of a double Fadjur mare has done halter, and has been ridden in the desert and on trails a lot in a simple snaffle bit, and has been used for riding lessons for children. She is sound and youthful looking at 22 years; I have owned her for 20 years. My Fadjur daughter is 27 years old, has been shown at halter, and has been ridden in the mountains and by children both hunt seat and western. So yes, you can have both type and performance. You have to be picky and look around a lot, learn from your own and others' mistakes, and set very high standards in what you will own or what you will produce with your own bloodstock. I think the breeders and owners and trainers (in the 80s mostly and somewhat today) who are just after the money, have done the most to damage the breed. I know there is a "breed standard", but I also enjoy your discussion of all the variations within. I have seen a lot of "champions" in and out of the show ring with serious faults. Some people do not want to be educated. They would rather pay someone else to make those decisions for them. I just returned last week from 3 days of showing 2 mares to 9,000 children here in Las Vegas at the Farm Festival. I have done this now for 5 years; 3 years with the stallion mentioned above because he is so wonderful to children and adults seeing a horse/or Arabian/or Egyptian Arabian for the first time; and now 2 years with the AK El Maleek mare mentioned above and my first foal now 20 years old (Ansata Ibn Sudan granddaughter out of an APHA breeding stock mare). So in the last 5 years, 3 of my horses have literally touched THOUSANDS of children and their parents. When they think of riding a horse or maybe taking lessons, or maybe ever leasing or buying one, they will have a pleasant memory of a kind, gentle, typey Egyptian Arabian horse. I did not have to choose between halter and performance. But I also did a lot of research and comparison shopping. I also do not go through a lot of horses, or keep buying and selling them. I keep what I have. The task for us is to replace these horses. Since we can't clone them yet (at least not me), how do we replicate the wonderful ones as they get older and perhaps their producing years? Some farms and breeders/owners/trainers are so into volumes of mares bred and numbers of stallions at stud, mostly for the income, not for the quality. For me to replace these horses now (halter and perfomance ) would be very difficult, as I have set very high standards as my eye has become more critical and educated. Ralph--please continue with your passion. You love your horses and your dressage. Others can agree and disagree--but we all have one thing in common. We are united in our love of the Arabian horse.
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HLM
post Oct 6 2003, 01:19 PM
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good morning dear Kayemgal

I agree whith what you are saying- we all love our horses but do some people really do that? To some it is strictly business. There is nothing wrong with the latter, if it is so explained.

Each one of us has a sensitivity degree, just like all other mammals. this forum has given many people education and pleasure, including myself. Personal attacks should be avoided. they get us no-where.
That also goes for self-pitty.Everyone has problems or losses which might not belong here.I always say, if the shoe fits, wear it.

So let us continue in peace and frienship.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
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Guest_Iris_*
post Oct 6 2003, 01:57 PM
Post #88





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QUOTE (HLM @ Oct 5 2003, 06:35 PM)
Dear Iris

I am sorry to correct you, but what I discribe- are horses which indeed I have seen in the flesh, thousands of them.
What I critizize in general, without mentioning names,
are conformation poins and of course those, who for one reason or another do not wish to test their breeding stock. and of course particular judging systems.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif

Dear Hansi,
I am sorry to correct YOU
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Guest_Iris_*
post Oct 6 2003, 02:26 PM
Post #89





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QUOTE (Iris @ Oct 6 2003, 02:57 PM)
QUOTE (HLM @ Oct 5 2003, 06:35 PM)
Dear Iris

I am sorry to correct you, but what I discribe- are horses which indeed I have seen in the flesh, thousands of them.
What I critizize in general, without mentioning names,
are conformation poins and of course those, who for one reason or another do not wish to test their breeding stock. and of course particular judging systems.

Have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif

Dear Hansi,
I am sorry to correct YOU

My finger hit the enter button by mistake before I finished. Hansi, you have not only often generally criticized horses you have never seen, you often personally degrade other breeders you don't even know and whose horses you have never seen. Ralph made a comment which you did not like about the kind of horses you prefer and breed. You must know that Serenity horses are not every one's cup of tea. Preference goes with the territory for all breeders and that is fair play. He didn't comment on you personally. Instead of accepting a fair personal opinion of your horses you attacked him on a very personal level and you've done it many times before. How do you know what others have accomplished in their life outside of horses? That is very personal and hitting way below the belt. Would you like it if your personal life was brought up on the forum? I think you owe Ralph an apology.
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HLM
post Oct 6 2003, 03:00 PM
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Dear Iris

Am I misunderstanding you? you made a statement that I critize horses I have never seen. . How do you know this? Can you name any? together with correct statements I made?
By the way, have we ever met?

Have a nice day

Hansi
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