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> Egyptian Event 2008, Changes in scoring system and judges
Echo1
post Nov 29 2007, 12:32 AM
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Hi Everyone,
If you've not recently been to the Pyramid Society web page to get your holiday gifts for the horse lovers in your family, you might have missed the adjustments made to the scoring system for the Event as well as the number of judges to be judging the championship classes.

JUDGING & EVENT SCORING SYSTEM CHANGES
Believing the goals of the judging and scoring system are to encourage improvement in the conformation and movement of Straight Egyptian Arabian horses, while maintaining the type for which the Arabian horse (and the Egyptian Arabian in particular) are known, the Board approved the following revised scoring and judging system beginning in 2008:

You can read the rest of this article here >>>Revised Scoring System
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HLM
post Nov 29 2007, 01:17 AM
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Dear robert

thank you

the first fault I noticed is the statement under legs "Pastern" should be long, slopy and elastic". That would discribe the pastern of an Engl. TB. But then they dont go on endurance tough terrain, cut or rein, where these pasterns would brake down.. the pastern of the arabian should never be "Long" but rather a medium size in comparrison and the best ARabs I have seen, have just that.. My opinion.

It is not mentioned that points for "Type" are now singular or still duplicated. Did I overlook it.

May be I misunderstood all this, please enlighten me

Hansi biggrin.gif
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Guest_julieM_*
post Nov 29 2007, 10:06 AM
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Hello Hansi,

I agree, but this whole text seems to be very light. I think that published information of this sort could lead to some new breeders making big mistakes especially in the area of legs. I say new breeder thinking that perhaps when starting out not all people come from a horse background. Words like fine canons dont realy say enough, as for the position of the eye, perhaps its just the way that it is worded.
There is no mention to skin and coat, (did I miss it) these are things that are so true to the arabian horse, they can never be disguised by beauty products, have these characteristics been lost because of over clipping. I wonder.
Then again perhaps its me, when I think of the arabian horse, am I just seeing a ghost from the past.

Juliem
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Guest_Eagleridge Arabian Farm_*
post Nov 29 2007, 11:06 AM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Nov 29 2007, 11:17 AM)
Dear robert

thank you

the first fault I noticed is the statement under legs "Pastern" should be long, slopy and elastic". That would discribe the pastern of an Engl. TB. But then they dont go on endurance tough terrain, cut or rein, where these pasterns would brake down.. the pastern of the arabian should never be "Long" but rather a medium size in comparrison and the best ARabs I have seen, have just that.. My opinion.

It is not mentioned that points for "Type" are now singular or still duplicated. Did I overlook it.

May be I misunderstood all this, please enlighten me

Hansi biggrin.gif
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Hi Hansi

I totally agree about the pasterns, it also should have mentioned that the canons should be short and the forearm long. One thing I noticed on so many of the horses I saw in the USA earlier this year were how long and spindly the canons were, they are supposed to be 1/3 not half. I suppose it one is aiming for long pasterns they will get long canons to go with it.

Cheers
Jenni




I
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lynnbrook
post Nov 29 2007, 12:23 PM
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The PS ought to use the new Arabian Scoring System, that will be in the USEF rules. And effective as of April 1st 2008 all AHA shows will be using it.
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HLM
post Nov 29 2007, 03:30 PM
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Good morning everybody

thank you all and I agree with your observation. I thought I might get some flack this morning, but was prepared.

Indeed you are so right, now some inexperienced person might try to breed for long pastern with a hrose which has them already. the entire discription of the conformation and type standards are out of wack. there are rectangular and square types in all breeds and each has a particular function and limits.

I remember years back when a large prominent breeder produced horses with their front forearms almost flush with the chest, even published a drawing of such, which was supposed to the the correct position.

I think each knoledgable judge should judge these horses as they see it and please nobody breed for "long" pastern. because such horses could never
get through the desert, sands, rocks, lava, heavy terrain. May be this was a typo?
But they would be nice for riding in a park.
Surely their board could not make such rather strage statements. I saw so many of these "Long"pastern with tiny hoofs attached at the EE belonging to prominent breeders and just shuddder. Who does the PS board invite to give such recommendation? Has anybody ever tried to ride such a horse through tough terrain or is in the saddle at all? Or are they pleasing particular breeders who created such detrimental faults?

I think proper drawings of both rectangular and square type horse could be made available under their judging system/definition and explained what limits each one has..

I also dont understand why we need a 1-20 point system, when 1-10 would suffice, as it does with other breeds. Who are we trying to fool by making it look good with the numbers? since most legs get 16-17 points, which under their system is considered "very Good" when I would consider it "Poor" seeing these 16-17 point legs. Just to please the exhibitors etc is not always the way to preserve the SEs and produce good horses. when a horse has such long pastern on tiny hoofs with poor tendons, the points should be "1-3". NOw which judge would dare this, eh? So why show it under the schedule?Legs should be judges as to what they can do, last, etc.and only an experienced rider ca really evaluate this. LIke to see such horse attempting the tevis cup, they wont even handle the trip getting to it.

Just my opinion
All have a nice day
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Echo1
post Nov 30 2007, 02:21 PM
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Dear Hansi,
I agree with the issue on long pasterns vs. shorter pasterns. Long pasterns are a weakness if you plan to ride your horse any distance.

A few years ago I posted a photo of one of our horses who is half pritzlaff bred and he was VERY correct in the legs. Yet, MANY people on this forum bashed him saying he 'has short pasterns'. Personally, I don't see them as 'short' I see them as being exactly as they should be. Not short, and not long.

This stallion, I rode quite often, he was a great horse. I think horses with long pasterns might be a little softer to ride through a meadow on a sunny day biggrin.gif but if you were to ride this long pastern horse any distance over 100 yards, or up and down the mountains or rougher terrain, the horse with long pasterns would turn up lame. He also produced horses who were great for performance, and one colt, turned out to be an accomplished 100 mile endurance horse.

I really think that it does take someone who rides, or at least a person who understands the mechanics of a horse for the purpose of riding, endurance, speed, stamina, etc. to write the description of legs, etc, for judging quality in regards to conformation. If the pasterns are too long, they are weak, and will break down. Just like I don't like to see a horse too long in the back as they become weak in the loin and coupling area.

Long pasterns give the horse a 'cleaner and more refined' look to the legs. It adds length of leg to those horses who have a poor or short forearm. (Sadly, I can say, I see more and more horses all the time with a short forearm)I think people didn't understand a long forearm is good, and ignored that aspect, and found a way around lengthening the leg in the pastern to make up for poor forearms or a long and sloping shoulder. Their eye is seeking symmetry. Personally, I'd be more concerned about the stumpy looking horse with no forearms, than a longer pastern. But certainly, this is not the ideal horse for any sort of performance work.

I think in the end though, when a 'great' horse does come in the arena, he will stand out amoung the rest, and although some can't exactly verbalize point for point what makes a great horse, we all for the most part, have the ability to see 'symmetry' and 'balance' in a horse.

A few grey areas, but otherwise a good judging system. smile.gif

kelly
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Liz Salmon
post Nov 30 2007, 02:45 PM
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Here is a photo of a grey stallion with what I consider nice short cannons, pasterns of a good sensible length and 45 deg. angle. I hate the shoes and pads, but that's what happens here !! This horse has been on the track I believe in Poland, remaining sound.

The photo of the bay shows short, steep pasterns and long cannons.
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Echo1
post Nov 30 2007, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Nov 30 2007, 03:45 PM)
Here is a photo of a grey stallion with what I consider nice short cannons, pasterns of a good sensible length and 45 deg. angle. I hate the shoes and pads, but that's what happens here !! This horse has been on the track I believe in Poland, remaining sound.

The photo of the bay shows short, steep pasterns and long cannons.
*


Hi Liz,
I always enjoy your posts. You're right. And, you add another 'element' to the pastern bringing up the angle. This also is a very important point. The angle of the pastern is in direct relation to the angle of the shoulder, and if too steep, no matter what length the pastern is, too steep will cause unsoundness from concussion. As, well as the horse having less stamina and will fatigue easily.

Have you ever noticed how a horse who is too steep will wear his hooves down, when not having shoes on?

Kelly
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HLM
post Nov 30 2007, 07:15 PM
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Dear Liz (Salmon)

you see howe can disagree? The bay horse does NOT have short pastern, it has a short forearm. the cannon bone above the ankel to belowe the knee should fit 2-2,5 times into the forearm starting from above the knee. And it should be "v-shaped" indicting strength to protect the more sensitive lower leg, jut like your upper arm protects yours. .

the grey horse, How can I judge it? All I see is a bad off front leg, where it could be that the tendons are too tight/short not being able to stretch out and make the leg look straight.Indeed the pasterns you see correctly. Cant see the hoofs too well and they could be okay. Cant see underneith to see the soles/walls either, so they could be okay too.Even looking at his off front leg makes me dizzy.How long do you fee this horse last going up and down heavy terrain or racing? I would not stake my life on it. Also dont see forearm/cannon length comperrison. You did not show it.


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Echo1
post Nov 30 2007, 07:46 PM
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Hi Hansi and Liz,


There are a couple things that could make this easier. smile.gif First, to really judge the horse well enough, don't you think we have to consider several things as Hansi mentions? Ex: how a horse travels based on pastern length.

Neither horse has great legs here. sad.gif The grey has some corrective shoeing, which could hide his true conformation. Us ladies do know, what a nice pair of high heel shoes will do for the hindquarters. biggrin.gif
As I mentioned earlier, we tend to forget the length of forearm, and focus at the lower leg.

If you watch a horse when he moves, you can tell what the problem is based on how the arch is made when he picks up and sets down his feet.
How a horse travels based on pastern length....
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Liz Salmon
post Nov 30 2007, 09:48 PM
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I have seen both these horses in person. Here is another photo of the grey, so you can see his long forearms, I have seen him without those shoes too, it's not corrective shoeing, but just how they all shoe for Halter. I would hate to ride the bay with those pasterns. I consider them too short with very little angle to them—a real bone shaker with no suspension. A long well muscled forearm is vital, and should be twice the length of the cannons.
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HLM
post Dec 1 2007, 01:02 AM
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thanks Liz (Salmon) for the photo of the grey. to my eyes that makes his legs look even worse. What good is a Royls Royce with one flat tire eh? than I rather take the bay, stomach the rough ride but will most likely outlast the grey.
You see I now would give the Grey two points for legs, simply because I havent seen the hind ones. those front legs look awful touchy to me. Bet you he made up with lots of double points for type,and did some winning.And now some people might understand why I am so upset with the unreasonable scoring system of the EE. a better horse would have been given the gate, to make room for another garden ornament. Please correct me if I wrong.

By he way I have seen numerous halter champions in the past at the Ee which got 16-18 points for similar leg faults and worse, imagine.Translated into very good legs. Now what expert would agree on that, eh.

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Liz Salmon
post Dec 1 2007, 01:34 AM
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Very interesting Hansi since the grey was raced 20 times in 2 seasons in Poland, he had 2 wins and 13 placings and Polish National Champion stallion—he remains very sound today. The bay never appeared under saddle and not only had those horrible pasterns, long cannons, short forearms, calf knees, but also a club foot which you can just see on his right foot. In my opinion the Poles know how to breed and test horses, which is always what you want—yes ? I also know which one I would rather ride.

I guess that you never will agree with anything that I post, but hey that's what makes the world go around—it would be very boring if we all thought the same.
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HLM
post Dec 1 2007, 04:57 AM
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thank you Liz (Salmon) I guess the tendon problem started through racing or after his retirement from it. No, cant see clubfoot from the photos.
May be you can tell us the name of the grey so that we all can mark down why the front legs look as they do. that should not be hard and would be educational.. If all of us would have known- racing etc- aforehand, then we could have made allowances. However, had this horse not raced, then I stand firm on my reasoning. Mind you I have seen many top racers which in their twenties still have crystal clear legs. Of course it can just take one mis step, and the horse can bow or bog.
I have one almost 31 years old with what I call a "20" leg, clean, clear and sound.
He worked pretty hard too.

Had I put the photos of the grey on, I would have stated" Please this is only to compare pastern, kindly overlook the tendons infront, the horse raced a lot and ended up with this problem". Now that I would do to right of the start avoid misunderstanding or misjudging.

I agree with numerous things you state, just sometimes dont like the way you judge horses, in particular legs. I feel you are far to generous in the scores, or to vague trying to be too nice and with it I am sometimes confused. You most likely dont like my judging either. So we agree to disagree. One just cant get a a little bit pregnant, you see. In the meantime we can enjoy exchanging views.
Just try to be a bit more explanatory, so that I can understand better.

thanks and have a grand evening
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