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> Egyptian Event 2008, Changes in scoring system and judges
Echo1
post Dec 1 2007, 12:41 PM
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Liz and Hansi,
So what do you suggest to someone who is going to show, and does not breed for long/weak pasterns ? How many points would that be?

Kelly
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HLM
post Dec 1 2007, 03:14 PM
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Goodmorning everybody

Dear Kelly

First of all this is the Se forum and we are discussing the EE. this is what confused me with Liz (Salmon) showing a photo of a polish stud. I had hoped some photos are availabe of SEs for comparrison.

Kelly, there is more to a leg then just pasterns, as you well know. . So I cant asnwer your question, other than saying- if the rest of the legs are correct I most likely give a "20", meaning that also the pastern are of adequate length.
According to the PS score sheet a "20" is "Ideal". Now what is this supposed to mean? Like to see a drawing of what they mean by it. That sort of makes the score below it which states" excellent" what in comparrison to "ideal".?
But as Robert pointed out so well, it is the movement. And there we look also at the hip-buttock-stifle area and in particular the stifle. When one judges individual conformation parts and concludes, it must be taken into account how they fit together with all parts. Also to consider the emphasis to look carefully at the head would make me think the judges need to take a tape measure along.

As you also know tendons are very important, they are very sensitive and unless there is a strong long forearm to take to brunt of the impact, they can blow quickly.
the same goes for weak joints, to small, etc. And lastlyit is hard for me to judge from photos, like to see the horse in the flesh and under saddle..

The Poles, as confirmed by Liz (Salmon) breed good horses and test them. Now I am waiting to hear of the test of the recently imported Se halter champion stallion. Surely they wont start now breeding from untested stallions, or? Can this horse be compared with the fabulous "Druch"?

Take care and have a nice day
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms
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Echo1
post Dec 1 2007, 09:29 PM
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Hi Hansi,
Thanks for your response.
It is true that a horse who has too long a pastern isn't going to move properly and if too short , the horse also does not have proper movement.

You can tell the problem when the horse picks up his feet and sets them down.

Kelly
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mckulley1
post Dec 2 2007, 07:34 AM
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Hansi,

I'm only responding to your obvious misjudgment because I received a private email to do so.

Do you have ANY idea to whom those bay legs belong to? BEY SHAH. So go ahead and stomach THAT ride because as history has shown us, that horse could have NEVER outlasted the Grey. Nor most of his get and grand get. Won't even get into the fertility issues.

Where in contrast, the Grey is an accomplished race horse, show horse, and State Stud head sire with IMPECCABLE legs. TEXTBOOK legs. As do his get - who have been World Champions and have raced and his grand get who have been World Champions and most recently unanimous US National Champions. He is sound and still being ridden to this day. And bred. In the first photo, Liz took that shortly after his importation. I do hope that some time soon she will visit him again and take new photos. The shoes and pads were due to the lack of proper hoof care while living overseas. The pads were there to support his heels while new feet grew out. He is no longer shod this way.

NOW if you want to see some LEGS go over to the Midwest site, to the Stallions for sale page and download the video for the chestnut stallion Monogramm by DS Major Afire. I have NEVER EVER EVER seen a forearm so stinking short with cannons so FREAKING long EVER. OUCH.
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Liz Salmon
post Dec 2 2007, 12:50 PM
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Here are more recent photos of the greys front legs, as Amanda says the original photo was taken shortly after importation.
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HLM
post Dec 2 2007, 01:19 PM
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Mckulley1

Well my dear, I judged by the photos, and based on it I STAND FIRM!!!!
It is obvious now, that they were misleading referring to the grey. Refering to the bay, Liz (Salmon) is correct in her observation, with the exception that both of you call it either long or short cannon, whereas I maintain that such size is dictated by the length of the forearm. Of course, if you feel that the oldtimer master who taught us are WAY OFF and taught wrong, that is your perogative.

This also again confirms that one can not have a true judgment of any horse simply by looking at photos or videos, espcially when some are manufatured by photographic artists, or are computer edited. The only ones one can trust more is if the horse is at lieberty, and such photos/videos are unedited and taken by
a realistic photographer.

Furthermore, I have been long enough in the saddle riding over some of the taughest terrains in Canada for decades to be able to evaluate a horses legs, plus of course the rest.

While flat racing is a hard stress performance, and in most cases when injuries occur it would be in the front legs, it is a totally different story when riding taught terrain cross country. One of the taughest is the tevis cup, which I unfortunately have never ridden. But when in taugh terrain hunting country in Canada you have to jump solid stone walls, or solid fences landing full speed on rocks so that you see the sparks flying, yes my dear, you better have legs with excellent tendons and joints and hoofs.

You are entitled to your judgement, be it a horse or me, and I trust this is done through your many years of experiences riding many breed of horses through and over anything. If this is not the case, than I suggest you start doing it now learning from it. If I live long enough thereafter, may be we can discuss this subject again. So see you in about ten years, if God is willing.

Hansi biggrin.gif
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Dieter
post Dec 2 2007, 01:22 PM
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Photos can be so misleading, either pro or con, particularly when it comes to legs and feet. Just another example of WHY we need to GO SEE the horse in the flesh.

Liz
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Liz Salmon
post Dec 2 2007, 01:41 PM
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Hansi, maybe McCulley hasn't had the length of time that you and I have had, (you are only 5 years older than me) but I have had the same experiences as you regarding riding over rough territory such as Exmoor (50 mile endurance ride) and regularly foxhunting over the South Downs, three day eventing, hunter trials etc. Just because we are older doesn't mean that we automatically know more than a younger person. You and I were riding well before most Olympic riders—does that make us better riders—heavens NO !!

I too was taught by old masters such as R.S. Summerhays (author, judge and great horseman) Lady Anne Lytton (Lady Anne Blunts granddaughter) and Charles Harris, Fellow of the British Horse Society and three years with the Spanish Riding School. A good eye for a horse is not in everyone. Having taught a judging class—by the end of the semester, only about half the class had the ability and eye to judge.

Yes. bottom line, go and see for yourself, and I've seen both those sets of legs several times.
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mckulley1
post Dec 2 2007, 01:53 PM
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Not only have I ridden first field in one of the oldest hunt clubs in the county, but have Hunter Paced, worked four years at a racing stable in Belgium, and have a hunter/jumper background.

If you want an absolute experience on legs, then go work in a racing stable. It is a daily task and you learn very quickly about legs and what kind of legs carry a horse over the finish line vs. down the beef jerky shoot. In my time there there was only one stallion that had such fine bone and small feet that his hooves were literally falling apart. But he'd won everything in France and Belgium and eventually became the herd sire.

You know Hansi, you will get respect when you start to GIVE respect. I don't care if the Dali freaking Lama gave you the key to Life.....you're still impossible to respect on this board.

Back to ignore.
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Liz Salmon
post Dec 2 2007, 02:06 PM
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It's amazing sometimes when I look at the feet and legs of winning steeplechase TBs that they could have won so much and remained sound. I used to exercise TBs at a race stable and they never seemed to be on all four legs—talk about bucking too. As McCulley said you do learn a lot about legs and feet.
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HLM
post Dec 2 2007, 03:30 PM
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Yes my dear MKulley1, respect has to be earned and most certainly not through insults you issued, and did not apologyze for. such lack of respect indicates your character, you must be aware of.

So keep on ignoring, that could also be understood towards your ignorance about other things. Nobody knows it all, and it would take another thousand years
to do know more. But in the meantime we can learn from each other, sharing experiences and trying to help.

Hansi biggrin.gif
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HLM
post Dec 2 2007, 03:47 PM
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Dear Liz (Salmon)

that is a frail excuse you just made. It is time through which we learn and experience.Of course I realize that many a young one gained experiences and I myself learned things from our smallest grooms, from my staff in my companies, etc. which became help in future dealings,enterprises.

When personal insults are issued, no apology given then I know with who I am dealing with. I have made errors and apologyze and should I make some again, I again will apologyze. Mckulley1 stated she rode with hunts, and you Liz and I both know the behavior and attitude of its members, where gallantry, good manners and respect for each other prevails.As you know it takes many hunts,years, before one earns the Hunt colours, at least in Canada and England.
We used to hunt twice a week, did cub hunting during the off time and fully hunted August into December, weather considering.

Regardless, what the oldtimer masters taught us still stands today, because horse has not changed, man has. I trust you understand in which sense I am stating this.

I am aware of some horses which indeed had a leg conformation indicating they could not do much, yet did. But I am also aware of some of their offspring with the same problems which could not. there are always exceptions to any rule, but we are not here to discuss exceptions I believe.

I have a race trainers licence for Florida for two decades, am very much aware of what it takes to select a horse for this flat racing stress sport. and I have seen horses which raced dozens of times, such as Druch, ZT Ali Baba retiring from such with absolutely clean legs.Some horses win a lot and retire early because of breakdowns, which can be contributed to overruse, or whatever.Nothing last forever, I guess.

Take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms.




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Echo1
post Dec 2 2007, 03:59 PM
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Hansi and Liz are two very capable horsewomen, who are able to articulate their professional expert opinions . smile.gif
Please let them post their opinions without adding such. We don't need this thread highjacked as we've seen on other threads where the topic is changed to bashing a particular stallion or his 'fertility' or other such issues as in this case, your opinions of the Dalai Lama.
Thank you for your consideration. smile.gif

P.S. For the record, Bey Shah has produced over 300 show winning offspring in halter and performance and over 100 offspring which were 'winning' at a US National level in halter and performance. (Arlene Majid).

Kelly
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Carol Cooper-Hal...
post Dec 2 2007, 05:47 PM
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Not worth it. dry.gif

This post has been edited by Carol Cooper-Hall: Dec 2 2007, 06:39 PM
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Robert 1
post Dec 6 2007, 01:20 AM
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Dear Hansi,
I knew you were interested in racing the Arabian Horse but, I didn't know to what degree and now that you have clarified this for me , I am impressed, a license for this long is certainly telling me you have a keen eye for the legs of a horse, afterall with out good legs what would any race horse be but, perhaps a pony horse for the truly good race horses with good legs. wink.gif
I owe you a glass of wine for sharing this with us because afterall you are not the one who began to throw out their particular credentials like they were playing rummy cards but, when you needed the trump card you had it to play. laugh.gif
With respect always,
Robert,
Echo Hill Arabians, USA
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