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> Blue List And Blue Star, The difference?
Razzmatazz
post Dec 16 2007, 10:46 PM
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Could someone please explain what the difference is between Blue Star and Blue List? Are they a specific family or strain...? Can a horse be both, or only one or the other?

Thank you for your input,
Teresa
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diane
post Dec 20 2007, 12:33 AM
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JacqueB, Dec 20 2007, 09:18 AM writes:
And thanks Diane for highlighting what you particularly found valuable & for the link on the Ahkal Teke/Caspian Horse/Arabian thread.
I still need a bit more background to understand the Muniqi- non Muniqi issue.
Through innuendo, on this thread, I think the Muniqi blood is associated with the Turkomen horse. And is that cross which was seen in the Muniqi strain some how seen as undesirable, at least by some folks?
And so what were those characteristics?
And did the Muniqi not really reach into the Nejd as much, more along northern borders - more racing types, maybe bigger? picked up by the Polish for their calvary/driving work? Were their personality characteristics different also?
I just don't the influences which would cause a person or people to value or not value Muniqi blood.
If someone could direct me to a link that would tell me all about this issue - that would be great.
Or if you know what pages in Forbis' Blue or Gold book- I've got those. I've also go Dr. Nagal's book on Hanan.
Or if you can just write it out right here, of course that would be fantastic!
Thanks, jb
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here's a list of strains as Raswan accounts for them.
this image is from Raswan's The Black Tents of Arabia (my life amongst the Bedouins, too which I noted the following please note:
within Raswan's Strain Chart he lists the Mu'niqi strain as BROWN not black, as commonly referred to. However, Raswan does suggest this strain "should never be allowed to mix with the others."
(handwritten on this image by Raswan's own hand). You will aslo note that Raswan defines the Mu'niqi type as speed: coarse, long lines, race horses. This combination is still ratified today by some. Although in Joe's journeys which he shares via the Al Khamsa site, it can be clearly seen that this is an unjust generalisation for the Mu'niqi strain name.

Klynstra quotes Raswan:
MU'NIQI -Speed. Long, narrow racehorse, strongly resembles the English Thoroughbred. Often coarse and common. Not at all classic type. Sloping croup, tail low set. Splendid legs.

QUOTE
A naturalized American writer, Carl Raswan, but who is not of Oriental origin, who recently published a book on Arabia, has also fallen into the quick-sands. Though he begins by giving us three strains instead of the mythical five, he not only assigns three opposite types to them, but actually includes the generic term Kehilan as one of them, with a warning that it must not be crossed with the others. This is like saying that no Thoroughbred should be crossed with the Matchem or Herod strain!

He then proceeds to give us a quite fantastic table of the relative incompatibility of strains in which he is unable to resist the glamour of the "Prophet's Five," which reappear in full force backed up by another Dinari Five! and the bar sinister of the Managhi strain is delineated in warning black!

There is not the faintest truth in the assertion that the Managhi strain "taints" the pure Arab strains, for it is as pure as the rest; or that it is "coarse" or ugly or is speedier or taller, for it is the same as the rest #1

#1 It is interesting to note that while asserting the black origin of this strain, bred from an unknown Kadish mare, he later speaks of this same strain being kept "pure'. in one family, Purity cannot be claimed for a mongrel strain.


He admits, and in fact boasts, that his sources of information are not from the desert tribes, as indeed we guessed, and his stories certainly bear the "suburban" stamp of the borderland towns; but the climax is surely reached when he claims for them "an especial value because they could not have originated among the simple nomads of the desert," and had he not told us he had been to Arabia, anyone might have concluded that, like some others, he had gone no farther than Syria or Irak.

The story of Mu'niqi (correct spelling, Managhi) is decidedly one of those which has no place in desert tradition; what he calls the "new and flowery magic carpet placed under the feet of the Arab steed by the fervour of religious leaders and the wealth and splendour of the Prophet, Sultans, Shahs, and Indian Maharajahs" is altogether too new and flowery for serious consideration. It belongs to what Lady Anne Blunt called "the atmosphere of romantic fable, spurious tradition dressed up in the garments of a new religion."

From the chapter named : The Great Myth

Lady Wentworth, The Authentic Arabian Horse and His Descendants: Three Voices Concerning the Horses of Arabia; Tradition (Nejd, Inner East); Romantic Fable (Islam); The Outside World of the West. Third Edition - 1979 First Published 1945; Second Edition 1962. If you would like to read this in context and more about this strain name ... Webpage
It must, however, always be remembered that there was a bitter battle of strong wills between Carl Schmidt aka Raswan and Lady Wentworth.


To top it all off - the mu'niqi strain, like all other strains, represents nothing more than a naming protocol smile.gif Physical attributes are relative to the gene pool. All history is but a snap-shot in time wink.gif
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Posts in this topic
- Razzmatazz   Blue List And Blue Star   Dec 16 2007, 10:46 PM
- - reidfm   The Blue Arabian Horse Catalog -- Jane Llewellyn O...   Dec 16 2007, 11:43 PM
- - diane   QUOTE (reidfm @ Dec 17 2007, 09:43 AM)The Blu...   Dec 17 2007, 01:35 AM
- - Razzmatazz   Can you please explain the issue with Muniqi? Why ...   Dec 17 2007, 01:36 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 17 2007, 02:35 AM)Its unde...   Dec 17 2007, 02:30 PM
- - diane   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 12:30 AM)untrue ...   Dec 17 2007, 10:27 PM
- - diane   QUOTE (Razzmatazz @ Dec 17 2007, 11:36 PM)Can...   Dec 17 2007, 10:29 PM
- - Bandit   If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it,...   Dec 17 2007, 10:55 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 17 2007, 11:29 PM)The gene...   Dec 18 2007, 12:36 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (reidfm @ Dec 17 2007, 12:43 AM)The Blu...   Dec 18 2007, 12:38 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 17 2007, 11:55 PM)If a tr...   Dec 18 2007, 12:39 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 08:55 AM)If a tr...   Dec 18 2007, 02:53 AM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 17 2007, 06:39 PM)A tree l...   Dec 18 2007, 03:13 AM
- - JoeFerriss   I am just saying this off the top of my head witho...   Dec 18 2007, 04:10 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 10:39 AM)A tree l...   Dec 18 2007, 04:42 AM
- - Nadj al Nur   Diane.......just to play the devil's advocate,...   Dec 18 2007, 06:53 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Dec 18 2007, 04:53 PM)Di...   Dec 18 2007, 07:03 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 04:13 AM)Well su...   Dec 18 2007, 01:34 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 18 2007, 05:42 AM)... the ...   Dec 18 2007, 01:44 PM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 07:34 AM)When con...   Dec 18 2007, 02:04 PM
- - Echo1   Joe Ferriss, Thank you for your post. It solidifi...   Dec 18 2007, 02:34 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 03:04 PM)Well yo...   Dec 18 2007, 02:41 PM
- - JacqueB   I need a history lesson here. What is Mu'niqiy...   Dec 18 2007, 03:21 PM
- - Bandit   I doubt going to the middle east would get you any...   Dec 18 2007, 10:54 PM
- - JacqueB   Hi Bandit, Let me add that I'm new to SE/deser...   Dec 18 2007, 11:54 PM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 18 2007, 05:54 PM)So Ban...   Dec 19 2007, 12:19 AM
- - Marilee   We are all learning. I love Mr. Ferriss's way...   Dec 19 2007, 12:30 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 11:44 PM)You...   Dec 19 2007, 02:21 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 19 2007, 01:21 AM)What i...   Dec 19 2007, 02:32 AM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 18 2007, 08:21 PM)To follo...   Dec 19 2007, 03:08 AM
- - BasiliskBelka   IMO, the whole Blue Star thing is of questionable ...   Dec 19 2007, 02:07 PM
- - BasiliskBelka   With regard to the Caspian Horse (*not* pony - it ...   Dec 19 2007, 02:10 PM
- - JoeFerriss   I tend to think that the preservation of the deser...   Dec 19 2007, 03:01 PM
- - diane   quote:Joe Ferriss Dec 20 2007, 01:01 AM I tend to ...   Dec 19 2007, 10:36 PM
- - JacqueB   Thanks Joe for your post. And thanks Diane for hig...   Dec 19 2007, 11:18 PM
- - Kimberli Nelson   If nothing else is said, it must be noted that the...   Dec 19 2007, 11:21 PM
- - Marilee   Dear jb: You should get a gold star for asking al...   Dec 19 2007, 11:22 PM
- - diane   QUOTE (Kimberli Nelson @ Dec 20 2007, 09:21 A...   Dec 20 2007, 12:09 AM
- - JacqueB   Well Diane, I discovered you edit - thanks. Part o...   Dec 20 2007, 12:53 AM
- - JacqueB   Thanks Diane, So the Mu'niqi is associated wit...   Dec 20 2007, 01:18 AM
- - Kimberli Nelson   Thank you Diane, Having been involved with the Ar...   Dec 20 2007, 01:29 AM
- - Seglavi   Kim, You said an eloquent mouthful! Go girl...   Dec 20 2007, 04:08 AM
- - diane   my pleasure. Its slippery thwang to catch. It he...   Dec 20 2007, 04:33 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   QUOTE (Razzmatazz @ Dec 16 2007, 11:46 PM)Cou...   Dec 20 2007, 04:54 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   >>Personally, I feel the entire 'Blue...   Dec 20 2007, 05:01 AM
- - anitae   Hello to all who have the courage to enter into th...   Dec 20 2007, 06:40 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (anitae @ Dec 20 2007, 04:40 PM)For me,...   Dec 20 2007, 07:00 AM
- - JacqueB   Good Morning Diane, It's extremely valuable to...   Dec 20 2007, 01:29 PM
- - JoeFerriss   JacqueB, I want to thank you for your original que...   Dec 20 2007, 02:38 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 18 2007, 04:21 PM)I need...   Dec 20 2007, 03:00 PM
- - JacqueB   Ahh Joe, Went to the AHA arabdatasource and they...   Dec 20 2007, 03:25 PM
- - Bandit   Arey you having fun yet JacqueB? . Im having a b...   Dec 20 2007, 03:55 PM
- - JacqueB   You know, I've been thinking, "why don...   Dec 20 2007, 03:59 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   Actually, some of Raswan's books are very avai...   Dec 20 2007, 04:21 PM
- - Bandit   I guess I should of said "some" of Raswa...   Dec 20 2007, 04:32 PM
- - JoeFerriss   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 20 2007, 04:25 PM)Ahh Jo...   Dec 20 2007, 05:53 PM
- - BasiliskBelka   What I meant by the Blue Catalogue being 'past...   Dec 20 2007, 06:26 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 11:54 PM)I doubt...   Dec 20 2007, 06:35 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (anitae @ Dec 20 2007, 07:40 AM)For me,...   Dec 20 2007, 06:50 PM
- - 2mntn   Hello JoeFerriss, Yes, it is too bad that *Ibn Ha...   Dec 20 2007, 07:01 PM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (2mntn @ Dec 20 2007, 11:01 AM)Hello Jo...   Dec 20 2007, 07:03 PM
- - 2mntn   Hi Jenny, I am hearing of US horses being exporte...   Dec 20 2007, 07:04 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (2mntn @ Dec 20 2007, 08:04 PM)Hi Jenny...   Dec 20 2007, 07:46 PM
- - Bandit   Im gonna get it right in a minute. Finally: http...   Dec 20 2007, 07:55 PM
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- - JacqueB   Cathy, I think we'll have to give a nod to Dia...   Dec 20 2007, 08:12 PM
- - 2mntn   Curt - thanks so much for the photo of Almileegy++...   Dec 20 2007, 08:31 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   I think that it is the Hamdan influence that I lik...   Dec 20 2007, 08:46 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 20 2007, 08:55 PM)Im gonn...   Dec 20 2007, 10:31 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 19 2007, 03:21 AM)To follo...   Dec 21 2007, 12:35 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 20 2007, 01:33 AM)It must,...   Dec 21 2007, 01:29 AM
- - JacqueB   Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Echo1, I've been...   Dec 21 2007, 01:57 AM
- - 2mntn   Hello Echo1, Sorry, I didn't mean to take thi...   Dec 21 2007, 02:23 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   Wow! This forum has been busy today. re: th...   Dec 21 2007, 02:25 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   I'm afraid I'm confused by the discussion ...   Dec 21 2007, 02:31 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 20 2007, 08:00 AM)From her...   Dec 21 2007, 02:42 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 20 2007, 10:33 AM)From the...   Dec 21 2007, 03:05 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (BeckyHuffman @ Dec 21 2007, 12:25 PM)D...   Dec 21 2007, 03:08 AM
- - diane   Joe - thank you for the candid images of Ibn Hafiz...   Dec 21 2007, 04:41 AM
- - Tous crins   There are quite a few pictures of Muniquis taken b...   Dec 21 2007, 05:42 AM
- - JacqueB   thanks Tous Crins, for that link, also had a list ...   Dec 21 2007, 01:05 PM
- - BasiliskBelka   Um - before anyone not familiar with Raswan aka Ca...   Dec 21 2007, 01:42 PM
- - BeckyHuffman   Wouldn't it be nice if the world was cleanly d...   Dec 21 2007, 02:27 PM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 21 2007, 05:05 AM)thanks...   Dec 21 2007, 04:42 PM
- - JacqueB   No Christine, didn't make it to the west coast...   Dec 21 2007, 05:24 PM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 21 2007, 09:24 AM)No Chr...   Dec 21 2007, 05:34 PM
- - JacqueB   Christine, Do you speak Dutch? jb   Dec 21 2007, 05:58 PM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 21 2007, 09:58 AM)Christ...   Dec 21 2007, 06:31 PM
- - diane   Becky writes: Wouldn't it be nice if the world...   Dec 22 2007, 09:35 AM
- - JacqueB   Good Morning Christine, My husband was working in ...   Dec 22 2007, 11:42 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (BeckyHuffman @ Dec 21 2007, 03:31 AM)I...   Dec 22 2007, 02:47 PM
- - JacqueB   Thanks Echo1, for your explanation. I was thinkin...   Dec 22 2007, 04:01 PM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 22 2007, 08:47 AM)Hi Becky...   Dec 22 2007, 04:37 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 20 2007, 08:55 PM)Im gonn...   Dec 22 2007, 05:12 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 22 2007, 05:37 PM)I see b...   Dec 22 2007, 11:08 PM
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- - BeckyHuffman   Echo1 said: However, what is interesting, is that ...   Dec 23 2007, 01:16 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 23 2007, 12:08 AM)Hi Bandi...   Dec 23 2007, 01:28 AM
- - diane   I can relate to the gist of the conversations so f...   Dec 23 2007, 01:30 AM
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