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> Blue List And Blue Star, The difference?
Razzmatazz
post Dec 16 2007, 10:46 PM
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Could someone please explain what the difference is between Blue Star and Blue List? Are they a specific family or strain...? Can a horse be both, or only one or the other?

Thank you for your input,
Teresa
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diane
post Dec 20 2007, 04:33 AM
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smile.gif my pleasure. Its slippery thwang to catch. It helped me to understand the biology and kinesiology (the mechanics of motion with respect to anatomy) of the horse first wink.gif At this point, I would like to emphasise (mho) that strains and body types are not categorically the same ie they are not interchangeable. For me, strains are a form of shorthand and as such should be used as a tool as like any other form of pedigree reference. “Strains” are not blood, they are names. The euphemism of strains has highlighted that there are differences within the Breed. These differences are truly biological ie they are skeletal etc. The strength and weaknesses (without being faulty) of the genes are what allows the varied differences. As Kimberly examples, this is where the somewhat misfortune lies when associating strain names (a naming protocol) with gene-related attributes ~ there’s no guarantee of a match ie they are not interchangeable.

Confounded by the use of strain names and compounded by the physical differences, the early writers suggested that there were many races of the Arabian as a Breed! The asil and/or the al khamsa notation seemed to be the consolidating terminology for these authors. As Mutlak was apparently to express often to Lady Blunt – they are all the same, they are all Koheilan (or words to that effect). This was after Lady Blunt had written a book or two on the Breed.

I do believe that the terms masculine type and feminine type (regardless of gender) would be more representative when referring to differences within the breed. Using strain names leads to confusion as the names don’t allow for total portrayal of type consistency. Genetics and the resulting phenotype (the unique visible form of each individual’s genotype) are the factors which dictate what the variances will be/are. The consistency (or not) of type will be the result of the strengths / weaknesses of the genes per individual mating, not by the strain names.

Phenotype may represent one (or a limited) number of types within the individual’s genetics. Breed this individual to a genetically stronger partner of a different type and differences could appear in the resulting foal(s). How the foals are bred on ie which choices are made as their partners (masculine or feminine in type) may solidify some traits (good and/or bad). The definition of good and bad is truly a personal preference (with the exception of an absolute debilitating conformational fault) – OR the breeder’s observance of the pressure to conform to nominated standards other than those of the original breeders, the nomadic Bedouin.

Therefore, in its singular form classic Arabian type is a furphy and type (singular) should be understood to relate to many types. To breed asil (including strain naming) is supposedly breeding to original nomadic Bedouin breeding practices not purely modern standards, which would include the allowance of and for variety.

Using Louis L Mann’s words: The past is always present in the future sums up breeding quite well.

For the above reasons, I’m hesitant to confirm your assumptions. However, in an effort to help understand (perhaps) what you have perceived so far...

So the Mu'niqi is associated with the body style of a TB and not "classic Arabian type". > Per Raswan’s written thoughts – yes.

And that's why folks would prefer one or the other - the Arab racing fan a Mu'niqi and those that treasure that unique Arabian look the non-Mu'niqi blood. > Yes (relating to these parameters only in context with the above)

Its worth remembering that the initial foray (or two) into the Arabian Peninsula by the Blunts was to find the source of the TB in order to obtain individuals to improve on TB in the UK. However, to their dismay, their importations, while improving their stock did not enhance their speed capabilities. Their venture was then converted to obtaining individuals as Arabians and breeding them on in their own right.

My thoughts smile.gif
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Posts in this topic
- Razzmatazz   Blue List And Blue Star   Dec 16 2007, 10:46 PM
- - reidfm   The Blue Arabian Horse Catalog -- Jane Llewellyn O...   Dec 16 2007, 11:43 PM
- - diane   QUOTE (reidfm @ Dec 17 2007, 09:43 AM)The Blu...   Dec 17 2007, 01:35 AM
- - Razzmatazz   Can you please explain the issue with Muniqi? Why ...   Dec 17 2007, 01:36 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 17 2007, 02:35 AM)Its unde...   Dec 17 2007, 02:30 PM
- - diane   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 12:30 AM)untrue ...   Dec 17 2007, 10:27 PM
- - diane   QUOTE (Razzmatazz @ Dec 17 2007, 11:36 PM)Can...   Dec 17 2007, 10:29 PM
- - Bandit   If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it,...   Dec 17 2007, 10:55 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 17 2007, 11:29 PM)The gene...   Dec 18 2007, 12:36 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (reidfm @ Dec 17 2007, 12:43 AM)The Blu...   Dec 18 2007, 12:38 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 17 2007, 11:55 PM)If a tr...   Dec 18 2007, 12:39 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 08:55 AM)If a tr...   Dec 18 2007, 02:53 AM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 17 2007, 06:39 PM)A tree l...   Dec 18 2007, 03:13 AM
- - JoeFerriss   I am just saying this off the top of my head witho...   Dec 18 2007, 04:10 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 10:39 AM)A tree l...   Dec 18 2007, 04:42 AM
- - Nadj al Nur   Diane.......just to play the devil's advocate,...   Dec 18 2007, 06:53 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Dec 18 2007, 04:53 PM)Di...   Dec 18 2007, 07:03 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 04:13 AM)Well su...   Dec 18 2007, 01:34 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 18 2007, 05:42 AM)... the ...   Dec 18 2007, 01:44 PM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 07:34 AM)When con...   Dec 18 2007, 02:04 PM
- - Echo1   Joe Ferriss, Thank you for your post. It solidifi...   Dec 18 2007, 02:34 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 03:04 PM)Well yo...   Dec 18 2007, 02:41 PM
- - JacqueB   I need a history lesson here. What is Mu'niqiy...   Dec 18 2007, 03:21 PM
- - Bandit   I doubt going to the middle east would get you any...   Dec 18 2007, 10:54 PM
- - JacqueB   Hi Bandit, Let me add that I'm new to SE/deser...   Dec 18 2007, 11:54 PM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 18 2007, 05:54 PM)So Ban...   Dec 19 2007, 12:19 AM
- - Marilee   We are all learning. I love Mr. Ferriss's way...   Dec 19 2007, 12:30 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 11:44 PM)You...   Dec 19 2007, 02:21 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 19 2007, 01:21 AM)What i...   Dec 19 2007, 02:32 AM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 18 2007, 08:21 PM)To follo...   Dec 19 2007, 03:08 AM
- - BasiliskBelka   IMO, the whole Blue Star thing is of questionable ...   Dec 19 2007, 02:07 PM
- - BasiliskBelka   With regard to the Caspian Horse (*not* pony - it ...   Dec 19 2007, 02:10 PM
- - JoeFerriss   I tend to think that the preservation of the deser...   Dec 19 2007, 03:01 PM
- - diane   quote:Joe Ferriss Dec 20 2007, 01:01 AM I tend to ...   Dec 19 2007, 10:36 PM
- - JacqueB   Thanks Joe for your post. And thanks Diane for hig...   Dec 19 2007, 11:18 PM
- - Kimberli Nelson   If nothing else is said, it must be noted that the...   Dec 19 2007, 11:21 PM
- - Marilee   Dear jb: You should get a gold star for asking al...   Dec 19 2007, 11:22 PM
- - diane   QUOTE (Kimberli Nelson @ Dec 20 2007, 09:21 A...   Dec 20 2007, 12:09 AM
- - diane   JacqueB, Dec 20 2007, 09:18 AM writes: And thanks ...   Dec 20 2007, 12:33 AM
- - JacqueB   Well Diane, I discovered you edit - thanks. Part o...   Dec 20 2007, 12:53 AM
- - JacqueB   Thanks Diane, So the Mu'niqi is associated wit...   Dec 20 2007, 01:18 AM
- - Kimberli Nelson   Thank you Diane, Having been involved with the Ar...   Dec 20 2007, 01:29 AM
- - Seglavi   Kim, You said an eloquent mouthful! Go girl...   Dec 20 2007, 04:08 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   QUOTE (Razzmatazz @ Dec 16 2007, 11:46 PM)Cou...   Dec 20 2007, 04:54 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   >>Personally, I feel the entire 'Blue...   Dec 20 2007, 05:01 AM
- - anitae   Hello to all who have the courage to enter into th...   Dec 20 2007, 06:40 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (anitae @ Dec 20 2007, 04:40 PM)For me,...   Dec 20 2007, 07:00 AM
- - JacqueB   Good Morning Diane, It's extremely valuable to...   Dec 20 2007, 01:29 PM
- - JoeFerriss   JacqueB, I want to thank you for your original que...   Dec 20 2007, 02:38 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 18 2007, 04:21 PM)I need...   Dec 20 2007, 03:00 PM
- - JacqueB   Ahh Joe, Went to the AHA arabdatasource and they...   Dec 20 2007, 03:25 PM
- - Bandit   Arey you having fun yet JacqueB? . Im having a b...   Dec 20 2007, 03:55 PM
- - JacqueB   You know, I've been thinking, "why don...   Dec 20 2007, 03:59 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   Actually, some of Raswan's books are very avai...   Dec 20 2007, 04:21 PM
- - Bandit   I guess I should of said "some" of Raswa...   Dec 20 2007, 04:32 PM
- - JoeFerriss   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 20 2007, 04:25 PM)Ahh Jo...   Dec 20 2007, 05:53 PM
- - BasiliskBelka   What I meant by the Blue Catalogue being 'past...   Dec 20 2007, 06:26 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 11:54 PM)I doubt...   Dec 20 2007, 06:35 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (anitae @ Dec 20 2007, 07:40 AM)For me,...   Dec 20 2007, 06:50 PM
- - 2mntn   Hello JoeFerriss, Yes, it is too bad that *Ibn Ha...   Dec 20 2007, 07:01 PM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (2mntn @ Dec 20 2007, 11:01 AM)Hello Jo...   Dec 20 2007, 07:03 PM
- - 2mntn   Hi Jenny, I am hearing of US horses being exporte...   Dec 20 2007, 07:04 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (2mntn @ Dec 20 2007, 08:04 PM)Hi Jenny...   Dec 20 2007, 07:46 PM
- - Bandit   Im gonna get it right in a minute. Finally: http...   Dec 20 2007, 07:55 PM
- - curtislt   Ray, I have an Almileegy++ granddaughter and have...   Dec 20 2007, 07:58 PM
- - JacqueB   Cathy, I think we'll have to give a nod to Dia...   Dec 20 2007, 08:12 PM
- - 2mntn   Curt - thanks so much for the photo of Almileegy++...   Dec 20 2007, 08:31 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   I think that it is the Hamdan influence that I lik...   Dec 20 2007, 08:46 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 20 2007, 08:55 PM)Im gonn...   Dec 20 2007, 10:31 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 19 2007, 03:21 AM)To follo...   Dec 21 2007, 12:35 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 20 2007, 01:33 AM)It must,...   Dec 21 2007, 01:29 AM
- - JacqueB   Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Echo1, I've been...   Dec 21 2007, 01:57 AM
- - 2mntn   Hello Echo1, Sorry, I didn't mean to take thi...   Dec 21 2007, 02:23 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   Wow! This forum has been busy today. re: th...   Dec 21 2007, 02:25 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   I'm afraid I'm confused by the discussion ...   Dec 21 2007, 02:31 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 20 2007, 08:00 AM)From her...   Dec 21 2007, 02:42 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 20 2007, 10:33 AM)From the...   Dec 21 2007, 03:05 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (BeckyHuffman @ Dec 21 2007, 12:25 PM)D...   Dec 21 2007, 03:08 AM
- - diane   Joe - thank you for the candid images of Ibn Hafiz...   Dec 21 2007, 04:41 AM
- - Tous crins   There are quite a few pictures of Muniquis taken b...   Dec 21 2007, 05:42 AM
- - JacqueB   thanks Tous Crins, for that link, also had a list ...   Dec 21 2007, 01:05 PM
- - BasiliskBelka   Um - before anyone not familiar with Raswan aka Ca...   Dec 21 2007, 01:42 PM
- - BeckyHuffman   Wouldn't it be nice if the world was cleanly d...   Dec 21 2007, 02:27 PM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 21 2007, 05:05 AM)thanks...   Dec 21 2007, 04:42 PM
- - JacqueB   No Christine, didn't make it to the west coast...   Dec 21 2007, 05:24 PM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 21 2007, 09:24 AM)No Chr...   Dec 21 2007, 05:34 PM
- - JacqueB   Christine, Do you speak Dutch? jb   Dec 21 2007, 05:58 PM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 21 2007, 09:58 AM)Christ...   Dec 21 2007, 06:31 PM
- - diane   Becky writes: Wouldn't it be nice if the world...   Dec 22 2007, 09:35 AM
- - JacqueB   Good Morning Christine, My husband was working in ...   Dec 22 2007, 11:42 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (BeckyHuffman @ Dec 21 2007, 03:31 AM)I...   Dec 22 2007, 02:47 PM
- - JacqueB   Thanks Echo1, for your explanation. I was thinkin...   Dec 22 2007, 04:01 PM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 22 2007, 08:47 AM)Hi Becky...   Dec 22 2007, 04:37 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 20 2007, 08:55 PM)Im gonn...   Dec 22 2007, 05:12 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 22 2007, 05:37 PM)I see b...   Dec 22 2007, 11:08 PM
- - Bandit   Of course I agree with you Echo. I hope it could ...   Dec 23 2007, 12:59 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   Echo1 said: However, what is interesting, is that ...   Dec 23 2007, 01:16 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 23 2007, 12:08 AM)Hi Bandi...   Dec 23 2007, 01:28 AM
- - diane   I can relate to the gist of the conversations so f...   Dec 23 2007, 01:30 AM
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