This site requires the Adobe Flash Player.
straightegyptians

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

> Blue List And Blue Star, The difference?
Razzmatazz
post Dec 16 2007, 10:46 PM
Post #1


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 50
Joined: 14-November 07
From: Iowa
Member No.: 9545



Could someone please explain what the difference is between Blue Star and Blue List? Are they a specific family or strain...? Can a horse be both, or only one or the other?

Thank you for your input,
Teresa
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies
Echo1
post Dec 20 2007, 03:00 PM
Post #2


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1901
Joined: 5-May 03
From: Pennsylvania, USA
Member No.: 394



QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 18 2007, 04:21 PM)
I need a history lesson here.
What is Mu'niqiyah, Mu'iqui blood?  I think I understand it to be a strain.  If it is a strain, then what are the characteristics of that strain? Be sure and answer this question & be specific - no euphemisms.

Then Echo1 says the mares of that strain were bred to Turkomen stallions. And I'm guessing we don't know if all of the mares were bred to Turkomen stallion and what horses were not products of Mu'iqui/Turkomen blood?  Then Echo1 describes an effort to save the strain from the influence of Turkomen blood by breeding it out to a functional degree over many generations, so these are included in the blue list horses?

Is Diane's point that any desert/asil horse may have Mu'iqui blood and therefore Turkomen blood if you go back far enough? Including the Abbas Pasha horses which is largely the basis for the PS definition of SE? and, of course, Blue Star horses?

Please understand I don't care what the answer is I just want to know what we know and don't know....  and taking the easy way out by asking here instead of going to the Middle East, digging in libraries, having all the books....
Thanks
Jacque
*



Hi Jacque,

The Mu'iniqiyat is a strain, one of the classic strains, which was around for thousands of years.

However, a few hundred years ago, some of the Mu'niqi mares were mixed with the blood of Turkomen stallions by the Salqa and later the Mu'niqi of the Fi'dan.

But no, not all of the strains were bred to Turkomen as descibed by Diane. This is incorrect. Although it may appear that way when you look at history from the present time and then back, instead of looking at history in a chronological order. or from past to present.

As with all strains there are substrains.
The Mu'iniqi for example had the Mu'niqi had several....
The Davenport horses for example were of the Mu'niqi-Hadruj. Not mixed with Turkomen, and clearly we can see the difference in these horses as opposed to those who were mixed Turkomen and described as follows:
... a long, narrow, straight neck. The body type is known to be angular as opposed to rounded. In regards to type they were described as plain, sometimes coarse. Their most noteable characteristic was their speed.

The Fid'an mixed their Mu'niqi mares with the Mu'niqi mares of the Salqa which then caused Turcoman blood to seep into the Mu'niqi of the Fidan.
This is where the Mr. Darley got his horse, from the Fi'dan.
The Fi'dan chief told Mr. Darley that both parents of the colt he (darley) selected were of the Mu'niqi strain. This was true, but as we know strain reflects females and there was no mention of the Turkomen blood because it was through stallions that this blood got in there.

The combination of classic Mu'niqi to Turkomen stallions gave a new look, most often described as 'angular'. (described above).

In regards to Abbas Pasha...there were several 'related' strains to the Mu'niqi and the Abbas Pasha had Rabdan horses, and was unmixed with this Mu'niqi blood.

So no, not all strains were mixed with Turkomen. And not even all Mu'niqi were mixed with Turkomen.

So from a strict preservation point of view of 'when in doubt, leave it out'. Fanaticists worked in a three fold process to try to remedy the situation.
First, all NON-Mu'niqi were identified.(Blue Star) Then those who were Mu'niqi but not known to have been crossed into Turkomen stallions, were bred specificallly away from Mu'niqi influence and any 'angular type'(BLue List) And finally, after the phenotype was re-established to what the classic Mu'niqi was known to be, they went after the pedigree in that, the horses who resembled the classic Mu'niqi could be reintroduced back to other classic strains which were being preserved by the Blue Star and Blue List fanatics.

I'm trying my best to explain it as well as I understand what happened, but I'm not always the best to explain things.

What is important from how I see it, is that as breeders, we should be aware of this because all of this does help us very much in how to understand where certain looks come from, sometimes desirable and sometimes not. But there are keys found in history which are very helpful in making breeding decisions. It just depends upon how particular a breeder is and how much they want to consider when breeding SE horses.

Becky,
I understand you think it is a 'past sell by date'. But you know, if I were you, and into racing horses, I'd really want to look for non-blue horses with alot of Mu'niqi. They were known for their speed. Just a thought. I hope you don't mind. wink.gif
Or from an opposite point of view, if you have necks on a horse who are thin, flat, narrow, upside-down, and the horse is very angular, you might want to look at some Blue horses.
Not saying any of this is a complete and absolute fix, but it could be a step in the right direction or give someone an idea of where to look to try to fix what they are after.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- Razzmatazz   Blue List And Blue Star   Dec 16 2007, 10:46 PM
- - reidfm   The Blue Arabian Horse Catalog -- Jane Llewellyn O...   Dec 16 2007, 11:43 PM
- - diane   QUOTE (reidfm @ Dec 17 2007, 09:43 AM)The Blu...   Dec 17 2007, 01:35 AM
- - Razzmatazz   Can you please explain the issue with Muniqi? Why ...   Dec 17 2007, 01:36 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 17 2007, 02:35 AM)Its unde...   Dec 17 2007, 02:30 PM
- - diane   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 12:30 AM)untrue ...   Dec 17 2007, 10:27 PM
- - diane   QUOTE (Razzmatazz @ Dec 17 2007, 11:36 PM)Can...   Dec 17 2007, 10:29 PM
- - Bandit   If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it,...   Dec 17 2007, 10:55 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 17 2007, 11:29 PM)The gene...   Dec 18 2007, 12:36 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (reidfm @ Dec 17 2007, 12:43 AM)The Blu...   Dec 18 2007, 12:38 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 17 2007, 11:55 PM)If a tr...   Dec 18 2007, 12:39 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 08:55 AM)If a tr...   Dec 18 2007, 02:53 AM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 17 2007, 06:39 PM)A tree l...   Dec 18 2007, 03:13 AM
- - JoeFerriss   I am just saying this off the top of my head witho...   Dec 18 2007, 04:10 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 10:39 AM)A tree l...   Dec 18 2007, 04:42 AM
- - Nadj al Nur   Diane.......just to play the devil's advocate,...   Dec 18 2007, 06:53 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Dec 18 2007, 04:53 PM)Di...   Dec 18 2007, 07:03 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 04:13 AM)Well su...   Dec 18 2007, 01:34 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 18 2007, 05:42 AM)... the ...   Dec 18 2007, 01:44 PM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 07:34 AM)When con...   Dec 18 2007, 02:04 PM
- - Echo1   Joe Ferriss, Thank you for your post. It solidifi...   Dec 18 2007, 02:34 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 03:04 PM)Well yo...   Dec 18 2007, 02:41 PM
- - JacqueB   I need a history lesson here. What is Mu'niqiy...   Dec 18 2007, 03:21 PM
- - Bandit   I doubt going to the middle east would get you any...   Dec 18 2007, 10:54 PM
- - JacqueB   Hi Bandit, Let me add that I'm new to SE/deser...   Dec 18 2007, 11:54 PM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 18 2007, 05:54 PM)So Ban...   Dec 19 2007, 12:19 AM
- - Marilee   We are all learning. I love Mr. Ferriss's way...   Dec 19 2007, 12:30 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 11:44 PM)You...   Dec 19 2007, 02:21 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 19 2007, 01:21 AM)What i...   Dec 19 2007, 02:32 AM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 18 2007, 08:21 PM)To follo...   Dec 19 2007, 03:08 AM
- - BasiliskBelka   IMO, the whole Blue Star thing is of questionable ...   Dec 19 2007, 02:07 PM
- - BasiliskBelka   With regard to the Caspian Horse (*not* pony - it ...   Dec 19 2007, 02:10 PM
- - JoeFerriss   I tend to think that the preservation of the deser...   Dec 19 2007, 03:01 PM
- - diane   quote:Joe Ferriss Dec 20 2007, 01:01 AM I tend to ...   Dec 19 2007, 10:36 PM
- - JacqueB   Thanks Joe for your post. And thanks Diane for hig...   Dec 19 2007, 11:18 PM
- - Kimberli Nelson   If nothing else is said, it must be noted that the...   Dec 19 2007, 11:21 PM
- - Marilee   Dear jb: You should get a gold star for asking al...   Dec 19 2007, 11:22 PM
- - diane   QUOTE (Kimberli Nelson @ Dec 20 2007, 09:21 A...   Dec 20 2007, 12:09 AM
- - diane   JacqueB, Dec 20 2007, 09:18 AM writes: And thanks ...   Dec 20 2007, 12:33 AM
- - JacqueB   Well Diane, I discovered you edit - thanks. Part o...   Dec 20 2007, 12:53 AM
- - JacqueB   Thanks Diane, So the Mu'niqi is associated wit...   Dec 20 2007, 01:18 AM
- - Kimberli Nelson   Thank you Diane, Having been involved with the Ar...   Dec 20 2007, 01:29 AM
- - Seglavi   Kim, You said an eloquent mouthful! Go girl...   Dec 20 2007, 04:08 AM
- - diane   my pleasure. Its slippery thwang to catch. It he...   Dec 20 2007, 04:33 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   QUOTE (Razzmatazz @ Dec 16 2007, 11:46 PM)Cou...   Dec 20 2007, 04:54 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   >>Personally, I feel the entire 'Blue...   Dec 20 2007, 05:01 AM
- - anitae   Hello to all who have the courage to enter into th...   Dec 20 2007, 06:40 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (anitae @ Dec 20 2007, 04:40 PM)For me,...   Dec 20 2007, 07:00 AM
- - JacqueB   Good Morning Diane, It's extremely valuable to...   Dec 20 2007, 01:29 PM
- - JoeFerriss   JacqueB, I want to thank you for your original que...   Dec 20 2007, 02:38 PM
- - JacqueB   Ahh Joe, Went to the AHA arabdatasource and they...   Dec 20 2007, 03:25 PM
- - Bandit   Arey you having fun yet JacqueB? . Im having a b...   Dec 20 2007, 03:55 PM
- - JacqueB   You know, I've been thinking, "why don...   Dec 20 2007, 03:59 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   Actually, some of Raswan's books are very avai...   Dec 20 2007, 04:21 PM
- - Bandit   I guess I should of said "some" of Raswa...   Dec 20 2007, 04:32 PM
- - JoeFerriss   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 20 2007, 04:25 PM)Ahh Jo...   Dec 20 2007, 05:53 PM
- - BasiliskBelka   What I meant by the Blue Catalogue being 'past...   Dec 20 2007, 06:26 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 11:54 PM)I doubt...   Dec 20 2007, 06:35 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (anitae @ Dec 20 2007, 07:40 AM)For me,...   Dec 20 2007, 06:50 PM
- - 2mntn   Hello JoeFerriss, Yes, it is too bad that *Ibn Ha...   Dec 20 2007, 07:01 PM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (2mntn @ Dec 20 2007, 11:01 AM)Hello Jo...   Dec 20 2007, 07:03 PM
- - 2mntn   Hi Jenny, I am hearing of US horses being exporte...   Dec 20 2007, 07:04 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (2mntn @ Dec 20 2007, 08:04 PM)Hi Jenny...   Dec 20 2007, 07:46 PM
- - Bandit   Im gonna get it right in a minute. Finally: http...   Dec 20 2007, 07:55 PM
- - curtislt   Ray, I have an Almileegy++ granddaughter and have...   Dec 20 2007, 07:58 PM
- - JacqueB   Cathy, I think we'll have to give a nod to Dia...   Dec 20 2007, 08:12 PM
- - 2mntn   Curt - thanks so much for the photo of Almileegy++...   Dec 20 2007, 08:31 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   I think that it is the Hamdan influence that I lik...   Dec 20 2007, 08:46 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 20 2007, 08:55 PM)Im gonn...   Dec 20 2007, 10:31 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 19 2007, 03:21 AM)To follo...   Dec 21 2007, 12:35 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 20 2007, 01:33 AM)It must,...   Dec 21 2007, 01:29 AM
- - JacqueB   Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Echo1, I've been...   Dec 21 2007, 01:57 AM
- - 2mntn   Hello Echo1, Sorry, I didn't mean to take thi...   Dec 21 2007, 02:23 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   Wow! This forum has been busy today. re: th...   Dec 21 2007, 02:25 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   I'm afraid I'm confused by the discussion ...   Dec 21 2007, 02:31 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 20 2007, 08:00 AM)From her...   Dec 21 2007, 02:42 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (diane @ Dec 20 2007, 10:33 AM)From the...   Dec 21 2007, 03:05 AM
- - diane   QUOTE (BeckyHuffman @ Dec 21 2007, 12:25 PM)D...   Dec 21 2007, 03:08 AM
- - diane   Joe - thank you for the candid images of Ibn Hafiz...   Dec 21 2007, 04:41 AM
- - Tous crins   There are quite a few pictures of Muniquis taken b...   Dec 21 2007, 05:42 AM
- - JacqueB   thanks Tous Crins, for that link, also had a list ...   Dec 21 2007, 01:05 PM
- - BasiliskBelka   Um - before anyone not familiar with Raswan aka Ca...   Dec 21 2007, 01:42 PM
- - BeckyHuffman   Wouldn't it be nice if the world was cleanly d...   Dec 21 2007, 02:27 PM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 21 2007, 05:05 AM)thanks...   Dec 21 2007, 04:42 PM
- - JacqueB   No Christine, didn't make it to the west coast...   Dec 21 2007, 05:24 PM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 21 2007, 09:24 AM)No Chr...   Dec 21 2007, 05:34 PM
- - JacqueB   Christine, Do you speak Dutch? jb   Dec 21 2007, 05:58 PM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 21 2007, 09:58 AM)Christ...   Dec 21 2007, 06:31 PM
- - diane   Becky writes: Wouldn't it be nice if the world...   Dec 22 2007, 09:35 AM
- - JacqueB   Good Morning Christine, My husband was working in ...   Dec 22 2007, 11:42 AM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (BeckyHuffman @ Dec 21 2007, 03:31 AM)I...   Dec 22 2007, 02:47 PM
- - JacqueB   Thanks Echo1, for your explanation. I was thinkin...   Dec 22 2007, 04:01 PM
- - Bandit   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 22 2007, 08:47 AM)Hi Becky...   Dec 22 2007, 04:37 PM
- - Jenny Lees   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 20 2007, 08:55 PM)Im gonn...   Dec 22 2007, 05:12 PM
- - Echo1   QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 22 2007, 05:37 PM)I see b...   Dec 22 2007, 11:08 PM
- - Bandit   Of course I agree with you Echo. I hope it could ...   Dec 23 2007, 12:59 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   Echo1 said: However, what is interesting, is that ...   Dec 23 2007, 01:16 AM
- - BeckyHuffman   QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 23 2007, 12:08 AM)Hi Bandi...   Dec 23 2007, 01:28 AM
- - diane   I can relate to the gist of the conversations so f...   Dec 23 2007, 01:30 AM
3 Pages V   1 2 3 >


Reply to this topicStart new topic

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 22nd July 2014 - 17:26
This site requires the Adobe Flash Player.