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> Blue List And Blue Star, The difference?
Lil Buddha
post Feb 19 2012, 08:55 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Feb 19 2012, 08:43 PM) *
Who cares if Blunt or God knows who is the breeder of ancestors, when the offspring/offspring remain untested and bred from, never saw a saddle. this alone tells the expert horseman/woman a great deal.. At least the importing countries test many of theirs, on the flat, in endurance, etc.etc.


Hansi, the Blunt thing is just to create more genetic choices, to create some diversity in our group of horses so we don't continue to breed ourselves into a corner, that's all. It's a pedigree that is a little different than the majority of horses. you know this, I know you do. It's not about money, bandwagons or anything like that.
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Avalondales Egyp...
post Feb 19 2012, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (Lil Buddha @ Feb 19 2012, 09:39 PM) *
Alot of times, I get the feelign that ray uses information as a weapon, against the person he is arguing with that he doesn't like. And maybe it is his tone that causes the problem for me. He might be everything you said but the way he has treated the whole Exochorda discussion has ruined it for me. Sorry.


Actually, I think the vemon from past discussions has not been as evident in this discussion... Maybe everyone is getting tired of going rounds over it... Tracy
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Lil Buddha
post Feb 19 2012, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 19 2012, 08:55 PM) *
Really? When I think of people who really know Arabian horses and bloodlines, you are not one of those who comes to mind. Of course you don't have time for this - because it is very time consuming to LEARN things. For instance, I had to explain to you the relationship of *Fadl and Sirecho - and I'm still not sure that you understand it.

I am not speaking of THOUSANDS of years ago. "Egyptian" breeding, as WE know it, was born less than 200 years ago. The time between Mohammid Ali the Great and Prince Tewfik only amounted to about 75 years. That amount of time is not enough to have established a great "Egyptian" breeding program. What that family did was to leave a basis for what has become known today as a great "Egyptian" bloodline program. Prior to the time of Muhammid Ali, the Great, Egypt had a very poor reputation having any Arabian horses of quality. Prince Tewfix was a contemporary of WR Brown, and I'm not sure that anyone could say that Tewfik outperformed Brown in the breeding shed. During the time of Abbas Pasha and his successors, the Counts and Princes and emissaries from far and wide, did not come to purchase these horses because they were "Egyptian". They came because of the Pasha's reputation for having pure desert-breds.

There are a few things to be said about the small group of Blunt desert-breds not incorporated in Egyptian breeding. And this would be the same things we should have to say about all of the various ancestral elements, with special attention given to those elements we may still have access to in today's world - never forgetting the admonition: "use it or lose it".


What are you talking about? *Fadl? Sirecho?

75 years is like 8 generations of breeding...enough to found a major family of horses.

What part of the Blunt desert free blood scares you so much that has you so worked up? AGAIN, I am not saying anything negative about the Blunt Desert bred horses of which Rodania is included, one of my favorite strains and family....Blunt desert free is an additional genetic choice in a tight community of bloodlines. but we dont' have that anyway, because the people who could have saved them, for whatever reason chose not to, so they can put all of their eggs in the Dahman and Saqlawis. The only thing we can do now, is to focus on low percentage Blunt
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HLM
post Feb 19 2012, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE (Lil Buddha @ Feb 19 2012, 10:39 PM) *
Alot of times, I get the feelign that ray uses information as a weapon, against the person he is arguing with that he doesn't like. And maybe it is his tone that causes the problem for me. He might be everything you said but the way he has treated the whole Exochorda discussion has ruined it for me. Sorry.



Now Ralph, who is calling a kettle black? Have you kept on file some of your posts of the past?
I never heard you saying "this makes sense, so where are the answers- Exochorda-
You shot down the messenger and thought this is okay, unless I am wrong.

Ray never uses information as a weapon against person he is arguing with. BTW he is debating, not arguing.
you might underestimate his inelligence and interlect. Look how you tried to tell me what I should have done or do, issuing insults. Of course I am asking, what you have done to assist. All of us can do only so much and cant please them all. Have you an idea what it took me to produce the Straight Egyptian Index vol. 1-6?
That should indicate to you that I dont have the time for only one horse and only jump in when I know I have better data on hand, trying to prevent fishing trips or our people mislead. For this I should not get a kick in the back, or?

I have numerous horses on my back burner, and may be you can help me out with "Habeeba", I have been unable to trace, and now actually see a strain such as "Saqlawi" in some stud books. She is the dam of Kheir (1983),
Noora Al thaniyah (1982), Shams al Thaniyah (1981) etc. Where did they get this strain information, would you know please? She is listed under EAOPB No.192.
Take care
Hansi




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Lil Buddha
post Feb 19 2012, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE (Avalondales Egyptian Arabians @ Feb 19 2012, 09:01 PM) *
Actually, I think the vemon from past discussions has not been as evident in this discussion... Maybe everyone is getting tired of going rounds over it... Tracy


Thanks for saying that. We all have so much more in common than we have different. Don't really understand why we do (or say) the things we do.
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Lil Buddha
post Feb 19 2012, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Feb 19 2012, 09:05 PM) *
Now Ralph, who is calling a kettle black? Have you kept on file some of your posts of the past?
I never heard you saying "this makes sense, so where are the answers- Exochorda-
You shot down the messenger and thought this is okay, unless I am wrong.

The funny thing is that I got an angry message from someone who read one of the articles on my blog and called me HANSI JUNIOR. This person said I sounded like a younger version of you, isn't that funny? Would you still shoot me after that remark? It would be like shooting yourself. LOL.


I have numerous horses on my back burner, and may be you can help me out with "Habeeba", I have been unable to trace, and now actually see a strain such as "Saqlawi" in some stud books. She is the dam of Kheir (1983),
Noora Al thaniyah (1982), Shams al Thaniyah (1981) etc. Where did they get this strain information, would you know please? She is listed under EAOPB No.192.
Take care
Hansi

I won't help you with these questions, as you are the researcher and the asker of these questions. I will not cast doubts or malign any bloodline that belongs to the EAO. You need to roll up your sleeves , invest a little sweat equity and find the answers to the questions you ask on your own. I am no researcher, thanks to you.



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2mntn
post Feb 19 2012, 09:25 PM
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QUOTE (Lil Buddha @ Feb 19 2012, 02:03 PM) *
What are you talking about? *Fadl? Sirecho?

75 years is like 8 generations of breeding...enough to found a major family of horses.

What part of the Blunt desert free blood scares you so much that has you so worked up? AGAIN, I am not saying anything negative about the Blunt Desert bred horses of which Rodania is included, one of my favorite strains and family....Blunt desert free is an additional genetic choice in a tight community of bloodlines. but we dont' have that anyway, because the people who could have saved them, for whatever reason chose not to, so they can put all of their eggs in the Dahman and Saqlawis. The only thing we can do now, is to focus on low percentage Blunt


Sorry, Ralph, but it sounded to me like you were off on a rant about people being "misinformed". My point was that you are also in that category, that of presenting wrong, or biased, information.

KW Ammon's "Historical Reports on Arab Horse Breeding" is one of my sources. He published his collection of material as a book in 1834 - the same year that Darwin was sailing around in HMS Beagle. So his "historical" perspective goes back to the 1600's. You might be interested in obtaining this book.

If we are going to "blame" someone for not appreciating the non-Blunt "Egyptians", then we are going to have to start with J.M. Dickinson. The first thing he did with *Nasr (100% Egypt I) was to breed him to Baribeh (48.4% Blunt). What we have to remember is that the early breeders did not think in terms of "Blunt", or "Egypt I, II, or any of the other categories we have now. They thought in terms of them being able to be traced to authentic desert-breds in all lines. They thought in terms of producing horses that could be ridden all day and all night, if need be.
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Caryn Rogosky
post Feb 19 2012, 09:35 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 19 2012, 09:55 PM) *
Really? When I think of people who really know Arabian horses and bloodlines, you are not one of those who comes to mind.


Ralph's depth of knowledge on Egyptian Arabian horse bloodlines is remarkable, and so noted by some of the most respected scholars of our time.
Ralph was kind enough to donate a booklet, compiled of his articles and photos from his blog, to Al Khamsa for the live autction held at the convention in September. Joe Ferriss was the highest bidder and winner.There were others bidding who were very eager to have it as well, but it was very evident that Joe was quite dertermined and the other bidders backed off. Ralph, you should consider that a well deserved tribute to your many, many years of study and dedication to the Egyptian Arabian horse.
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Nadj al Nur
post Feb 19 2012, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Feb 19 2012, 01:35 PM) *
Ralph's depth of knowledge on Egyptian Arabian horse bloodlines is remarkable, and so noted by some of the most respected scholars of our time.
Ralph was kind enough to donate a booklet, compiled of his articles and photos from his blog, to Al Khamsa for the live autction held at the convention in September. Joe Ferriss was the highest bidder and winner.There were others bidding who were very eager to have it as well, but it was very evident that Joe was quite dertermined and the other bidders backed off. Ralph, you should consider that a well deserved tribute to your many, many years of study and dedication to the Egyptian Arabian horse.

Yup.....I was one of the bidders who backed off.......would love it if Ralph could do a reprint of that, because I would still love to have a copy
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Caryn Rogosky
post Feb 19 2012, 09:49 PM
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It is a fact that the Blue Catalog has been used as a referece source at the EAO for many years, but that has been posted several times in the past. Both myself and Marilyn Lang saw this first hand...as it was presented to us as one of the best sources available anywhere by a past Director at the EAO, who had recently retired after forty years of dedicated service.
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2mntn
post Feb 19 2012, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Feb 19 2012, 02:35 PM) *
Ralph's depth of knowledge on Egyptian Arabian horse bloodlines is remarkable, and so noted by some of the most respected scholars of our time.
Ralph was kind enough to donate a booklet, compiled of his articles and photos from his blog, to Al Khamsa for the live autction held at the convention in September. Joe Ferriss was the highest bidder and winner.There were others bidding who were very eager to have it as well, but it was very evident that Joe was quite dertermined and the other bidders backed off. Ralph, you should consider that a well deserved tribute to your many, many years of study and dedication to the Egyptian Arabian horse.


Don't take this discussion off to the playground, where we "choose sides" to play ball. I never said that Ralph's work was without value. Ralph himself admits that he is not a researcher. In my opinion, Ralph's forte is in his evaluation of contemporary horses from the eye of an equine artist. He has the enviable position of having seen many of the imports, or at least the 1st generation of those imports. His ability to appreciate symmetry in shape and motion is accompanied by a talent for being able to describe these things in both eloquent and elegant ways.
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Caryn Rogosky
post Feb 19 2012, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Feb 19 2012, 10:46 PM) *
Yup.....I was one of the bidders who backed off.......would love it if Ralph could do a reprint of that, because I would still love to have a copy



Ditto, Cathy -- would love to add it to my library!
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HLM
post Feb 19 2012, 10:54 PM
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QUOTE (Lil Buddha @ Feb 19 2012, 09:55 PM) *
Hansi, the Blunt thing is just to create more genetic choices, to create some diversity in our group of horses so we don't continue to breed ourselves into a corner, that's all. It's a pedigree that is a little different than the majority of horses. you know this, I know you do. It's not about money, bandwagons or anything like that.



Thanks Ralph, I understand. But dont you think that preservations starts with what a horse and its line has done or can do, or is doing? How can we preserve something which is not being used for what it was bred for and just wasted?


BTW. how is Mrs Rose?

Hansi
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HLM
post Feb 19 2012, 10:58 PM
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Ralph, I prevented you from being ar researcher?

I thought you did a lot of it during the past decades, as you mentioned, unless I misunderstood you.
this is why I asked if you had any data on Habeeba at all. May be someone else has, I cant find anything of her parents.

Hansi
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HLM
post Feb 19 2012, 11:11 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Feb 19 2012, 09:55 PM) *
Really? When I think of people who really know Arabian horses and bloodlines, you are not one of those who comes to mind. Of course you don't have time for this - because it is very time consuming to LEARN things. For instance, I had to explain to you the relationship of *Fadl and Sirecho - and I'm still not sure that you understand it.

I am not speaking of THOUSANDS of years ago. "Egyptian" breeding, as WE know it, was born less than 200 years ago. The time between Mohammid Ali the Great and Prince Tewfik only amounted to about 75 years. That amount of time is not enough to have established a great "Egyptian" breeding program. What that family did was to leave a basis for what has become known today as a great "Egyptian" bloodline program. Prior to the time of Muhammid Ali, the Great, Egypt had a very poor reputation for having any Arabian horses of quality. Prince Tewfix was a contemporary of WR Brown, and I'm not sure that anyone could say that Tewfik outperformed Brown in the breeding shed. During the time of Abbas Pasha and his successors, the Counts and Princes and emissaries from far and wide, did not come to purchase these horses because they were "Egyptian". They came because of the Pasha's reputation for having pure desert-breds.

There are a few things to be said about the small group of Blunt desert-breds not incorporated in Egyptian breeding. And this would be the same things we should have to say about all of the various ancestral elements, with special attention given to those elements we may still have access to in today's world - never forgetting the admonition: "use it or lose it".


Hi Ray

what I will never understand why many are supressing the talents/qualities these SE/Asils have by NOT testing.
When we look at the ancestors of many, have their performance records (racing) have records as to what earlier imports to here have done and some are still doing (Babsons, Davenports,Doyles,Pritzlaff,etc) and what the desert countries still do in testing (flat racing, endurance, etc) as do the Polish,Spanish,english etc. countries.

I often mentioned "Man O' War"who has a full brother called "Miracle" who could not do a thing.
This can happen in any line, this is why one tests. Even in one's own herd, seeing the weanlings etc running, competing gives clues.Some are closely related.
This also covers attitude,courage and overall behavior.

If we continue only referring to books, what will we be elad to?

Take care
hansi
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