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> Blue List And Blue Star, The difference?
Nadj al Nur
post Dec 18 2007, 06:53 AM
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Diane.......just to play the devil's advocate, in this instance, may I point out that every horse in a pedigree does have a tail female line??
Cathy
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diane
post Dec 18 2007, 07:03 AM
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QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Dec 18 2007, 04:53 PM)
Diane.......just to play the devil's advocate, in this instance, may I point out that every horse in a pedigree does have a tail female line??
Cathy
*

Go right ahead, Cathy smile.gif Each and every horse has a sire. The sire's strain name (ie tale female) is known but not necessarily any of the others - and this is where the uncertainty creeps in. No-one (not even Kelly) can confirm that each and every asil desert bred horse without a listed strain name is categorically NOT Muniqi.

Any asil desert bred horse of the nomadic Bedouin with Original Arabian or Desert Bred tag can not be accurately detailed for strain names in all ancestors with the exception of the tail females on the female lines.

Hope this helps to clarify the issue. smile.gif
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Echo1
post Dec 18 2007, 01:34 PM
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QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 04:13 AM)
Well sugar, if you have proof then lets see it because you have some very important information there.  I know of a few books that need to be rewritten if your information can hold up under close scrutiny and one woman who needs to sit down before being told of this awesome information less the poor dear fainit at being told the good news.  

I would like to be like a bany rooster..the cock of the walk, letting everyone know my blue star mare definitely has no muniqui blood in her and her and her relatives are one step closer to reaching proof of absolute purity.   

Me thinks your information is too valuable to keep it to yourself so please do my ego a huge favor  and and post the valuable information here, I cant wait to see it.  smile.gif

Love ya, Echo1
*


If a tree is lying on the ground
it is proof that it fell

I've seen a tree fall
and when it did
it made a sound.

When considering horses, we should not consider the 'most remote' of ideas before looking at the obvious first. (Diane)

Sorry if I bruised your ego, Sugar. biggrin.gif It wasn't my intention.

Mu'iqui blood isn't the problem, it was an original strain from thousands of years ago. As we know, horses were recorded and remembered by strain, which is purely a reflection of the tail female line. So what about the stallions in the pedigree?

300 years ago, Mu'niqiyah mares were bred to Turkomen stallions by the Salqa Bedouins. This is documented.
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Echo1
post Dec 18 2007, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE (diane @ Dec 18 2007, 05:42 AM)
... the tree on the ground isn't proving whether or not it made a sound as it fell.  It simply states the tree is on the ground.  Nobody can say that it made a sound while it fell because no one heard it.

There is no known record of Muniqi strains within the Blue Stars.  Not ALL records are known (because they were verbal recounts which concentrated on the tail female only) so there is no proof whether or not Muniqi strain names are within the Blue Stars. 

Miss JL Ott has limited information.  We all have limited information about the history of the Breed.  What we do know now is the extent of what we don't know!  blink.gif  smile.gif
*



You've "missed the point and purpose "of what Blue Star is all about. It was done as an assist at a 'reintroduction' of Mu'iniqi blood back into the classic strains. It was done to serve a purpose and identify horses who had been bred a special way to 'breed out' Turkoman blood. The pedigrees are such that they were bred to only Asil horses for generation upon generation to help isolate the problem and then ensure the Turkoman influence could be removed from the horse. This way an entire strain would not be lost.

Many very concerned and astute breeders took it upon themselves to do this so they could be reintroduced into the breeding population without having the Turkomen influence show up.

So yet again, may I politely remind you that it is never necessary to bash such people as Raswan, Ott, or others to make your remote claims. Rather, please consider trying to understand the history and understand why things happened and why sometimes these horses were isolated was not a bad thing. It was done to clean up a pedigree and clean up the genetics so the Mu'iniqi could rejoin the population. It should not be a concern today. smile.gif
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Bandit
post Dec 18 2007, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 07:34 AM)
When considering horses, we should not consider the 'most remote' of ideas before looking at the obvious first. (Diane)

Mu'iqui blood isn't the problem, it was an original strain from thousands of years ago. As we know, horses were recorded and remembered by strain, which is purely a reflection of the tail female line. So what about the stallions in the pedigree?

300 years ago, Mu'niqiyah mares were bred to Turkomen stallions by the Salqa Bedouins. This is documented.
*


Well your right...honey bunny. Just when I think I know something someone lets me know I need to keep reading and asking questions. Hahaha. smile.gif
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Echo1
post Dec 18 2007, 02:34 PM
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Joe Ferriss,
Thank you for your post. It solidifies the importance of the Blue Star and how it can be used today. smile.gif Also, we should worry today about Mu'iniqi unless we start to lose the classic type, and we know where to go to help correct this.
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Echo1
post Dec 18 2007, 02:41 PM
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QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 03:04 PM)
Well your right...honey bunny. Just when I think I know something someone lets me know I need to keep reading and asking questions. Hahaha.  smile.gif
*


Bandit,
Again, I have to admit, I don't know anything about chickens and know nothing about rabbits either. biggrin.gif
The trouble is that there is so much negativity that floats around in regards to preservation breeding and what it was truly intended for, the different pursposes these titles mean, and not to be saying all labels are validating, but if we stop for a second and get passed this, there is some merit to some of this.
I believe people should be given the facts as they were, and we can all decide for ourselves what direction we want to go.
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JacqueB
post Dec 18 2007, 03:21 PM
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I need a history lesson here.
What is Mu'niqiyah, Mu'iqui blood? I think I understand it to be a strain. If it is a strain, then what are the characteristics of that strain? Be sure and answer this question & be specific - no euphemisms.

Then Echo1 says the mares of that strain were bred to Turkomen stallions. And I'm guessing we don't know if all of the mares were bred to Turkomen stallion and what horses were not products of Mu'iqui/Turkomen blood? Then Echo1 describes an effort to save the strain from the influence of Turkomen blood by breeding it out to a functional degree over many generations, so these are included in the blue list horses?

Is Diane's point that any desert/asil horse may have Mu'iqui blood and therefore Turkomen blood if you go back far enough? Including the Abbas Pasha horses which is largely the basis for the PS definition of SE? and, of course, Blue Star horses?

Please understand I don't care what the answer is I just want to know what we know and don't know.... and taking the easy way out by asking here instead of going to the Middle East, digging in libraries, having all the books....
Thanks
Jacque
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Bandit
post Dec 18 2007, 10:54 PM
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I doubt going to the middle east would get you any more answers than can be found in your own country.

Look at some of the horses that are being exported far and wide from different countries to the ME. Im not saying that the horses that are going there are inferior I just doubt a Arabian Bedouin migrating thru the Nejd would of been interested in many of them. Maybe Im wrong about this though. This is just my opinion and of course everyone has one of those. tongue.gif

Flame suit on and ready for blastoff. ph34r.gif

There is alot of wisdom in Echo1s words though--I believe people should be given the facts as they were, and we can all decide for ourselves what direction we want to go.

Echo 1, please tell us why there is negativity about preservation breeding?
Real preservation breeding. Not just putting two horses together and hoping for the best.

Diane, please come back. I like to hear what you have to say. smile.gif
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JacqueB
post Dec 18 2007, 11:54 PM
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Hi Bandit,
Let me add that I'm new to SE/desert Arabians.
So I don't know what you are wanting me to understand when you write -
"Look at some of the horses that are being exported far and wide from different countries to the ME. Im not saying that the horses that are going there are inferior I just doubt a Arabian Bedouin migrating thru the Nejd would of been interested in many of them"

And I'm totally unaware of negativity about preservation breeding. And am caught alittle off guard since I have such admiration for Babson horses - I actually look for them in a pedigree.
So Bandit you are speaking from an experienced desert/asil/SE forum reader and breeder
perspective which has assumptions of content that I am without.
Jacque
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Bandit
post Dec 19 2007, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 18 2007, 05:54 PM)
So Bandit you are speaking from an experienced desert/asil/SE forum reader and breeder
Jaque
*


Oh no Jaque, I figure in about 10 years i might have a little REAL experience in the areas of discussion here. Right now Im just learning alot and being a nuisance to the people Im trying to learn from.

About two years ago it hit me like a ton of bricks that I didnt know didley squat about Arabian horse breeding after about 15 some odd years of having different types of Arabian horses, breeding a few of them and trying very hard to study the different strains and types. Unfortuately I like to find out some things the hard way. I couldnt see the forest for all the pretty show horses for a long time. I still like show horses but their no longer my main point of interest.
There are alot of differnt types of Arabians out there and to each his own.

Were just having a discussion here about these particular kind. You could say conversations such as these teater on the edge of fanaticism. How dare I say such a thing! Bad Bandit, bad. smile.gif
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Marilee
post Dec 19 2007, 12:30 AM
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We are all learning.

I love Mr. Ferriss's way of speaking and sharing information. I can see that he is open to new information and opinions. How can the past be so known by some and so unknown to others? We keep asking and reading and studying, but it is more in the way we ask and how we learn.

I am a kindergarten teacher, but I never assume that I always know more than my students. In many ways they know more than I do. We share our ideas.

Some teachers only teach a part of the truth. My mentors opened my eyes, but did not impose their ideas on me. So much of this studying was done way before computers and DNA research.
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diane
post Dec 19 2007, 02:21 AM
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QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 11:44 PM)
You've "missed the point and purpose "of what Blue Star is all about.  It was done as an assist at a 'reintroduction' of Mu'iniqi blood back into the classic strains.  It was done to serve a purpose and identify horses who had been bred a special way to 'breed out' Turkoman blood.  The pedigrees are such that they were bred to only Asil horses for generation upon generation to help isolate the problem and then ensure the Turkoman influence could be removed from the horse. This way an entire strain would not be lost.
Many very concerned and astute breeders took it upon themselves to do this so they could be reintroduced into the breeding population without having the Turkomen influence show up.
So yet again, may I politely remind you that it is never necessary to bash such people as Raswan, Ott, or others to make your remote claims.  Rather, please consider trying to understand the history and understand why things happened and  why sometimes these horses were isolated was not a bad thing.  It was done to clean up a pedigree and clean up the genetics so the Mu'iniqi could rejoin the population.  It should not be a concern today.  smile.gif
*

To follow your view point, Kelly, you are advocating that the concept of Blue Stars was to assist at a reintroduction of Mu'iniqi blood (your words), then why would it be that the structure of JL Ott's work promotes the Blue Stars first (ie asil desert bred horses without any recorded Muni'qi strain names) then the Blue List (which have Muni'qi strain names) and then the Blue List (sub lists) - the sublists per the discretion of JL Ott?

The Blue Star definition is for those asil desert bred horses who have no recorded Mu'niqi strain name(s).

My understanding is that JL Ott promoted that the asil desert bred Blue Star horse should preferrably be bred to another asil desert bred Blue Star horse. Rather than Blue Star to Blue LIst - which is what you are essentially suggesting.

To save space, my view on the lead up history (prior to 300 years and a fair few more before these) can be found in this thread: Muniqi Turkoman Akhal Teke : Connections

ohmy.gif Kelly - you fib... you wrote and illustrated that rabbits have long ears. Therefore you do know more about rabbits aka bunnies than you care to admit. laugh.gif Where are the Hadban-ears?, Tiny, tippy, sickle-shaped #159 you bunny you, fancy forgetting this! biggrin.gif
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diane
post Dec 19 2007, 02:32 AM
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QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 19 2007, 01:21 AM)
What is Mu'niqiyah, Mu'iqui blood?  I think I understand it to be a strain.  If it is a strain, then what are the characteristics of that strain? Be sure and answer this question & be specific - no euphemisms.

Is Diane's point that any desert/asil horse may have Mu'iqui blood and therefore Turkomen blood if you go back far enough? Including the Abbas Pasha horses which is largely the basis for the PS definition of SE? and, of course, Blue Star horses?

Thanks Jacque
*

Jacque - not ignoring you... I'll reply shortly wink.gif

Edited...

Firstly - Muni'gi is a name. Strain naming is a naming protocol generated through necessity by the nomadic Bedouin's culture. They were nomadic, this infers that they did not travel with unnecessary belongings including any written materials such as pedigrees. Instead, they generated a naming system / protocol by which they could identify and keep track of their asil breeding stock. There were other horses in the region, the asil population only being a portion of them. There needed to be a mechanism - a protocol other than a written form. It is suggested that the Bedouin was faithful to the naming of the strains and forthright if the mare(s) was won from them so that the tradition could be maintained.

Second - Its a strain name which was popularised (as like any other strain name) by what could be seen of a few representatives at that time in history by a few westerners. The genetic history of the asil horse itself was not known, or by comparison, extremely limited therefore what its genetic background held in store for future generations would be found out only by the practice of breeding and somewhat western understanding. The immediate families from the desert and/or Egypt bred differently. If strains were a genetic power and were so incredibly resilient, these differences would not have happened. There wouldn't have been family differences from the first asil imports.

To your second question ~ essentially, yes (per the discussion on the Turkoman / Akhal Teke thread). Quite simply we do not know the full history of the asil horse as bred by the nomadic Bedouin. The fact is that it was the nomadic Bedouin who more or less created what they define as the asil desert bred horse. Whether or not this asil desert bred horse is genetically pure or not remains inconsequential. Their generations of culture and persistence has given us the modern asil desert horse. Simply look at the differences that can be seen today from the asil ancestors barely one hundred years ago. By breeding in what can amount to line breeding (closed, finite gene pool) the refinement of the Breed continues.

Quite simply, as Joe has said, we are following and promoting the results of a very specific culture. MHO there is no genetic purity. This has been proven of human kind. Horses, any horses (or that matter any creature), are shaped and bred by cultural definitions and climatic limitations.
smile.gif

This post has been edited by diane: Dec 19 2007, 11:09 PM
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Bandit
post Dec 19 2007, 03:08 AM
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QUOTE (diane @ Dec 18 2007, 08:21 PM)
To follow your view point, Kelly, you are advocating that the concept of Blue Stars was to assist at a reintroduction of Mu'iniqi blood (your words), then why would it be that the structure of JL Ott's work promotes the Blue Stars first (ie asil desert bred horses without any recorded Muni'qi strain names) then the Blue List (which have Muni'qi strain names) and then the Blue List (sub lists) - the sublists per the discretion of JL Ott? 

*


Yea Echo1 what about this? This is the whole premise for preserving them isnt it-No Muniqi?
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