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> Blue List And Blue Star, The difference?
BasiliskBelka
post Dec 19 2007, 02:07 PM
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IMO, the whole Blue Star thing is of questionable value UNTIL we have DNA sequencing available for the whole asil population.

Personally, I feel the entire 'Blue' concept is past its sell-by date. Yes, it was valuable *at the time* in that it alerted people to the necessity of preserving asil lines in general, but the information the Otts had to had was both limited and incorrect. Asil research has moved forward significantly since then - the information pool is infinitely larger and shared by thousands, not a handful. The Blue Catalogue should be relegated to a historical artefact and breeders should go forward with our new knowledge and DNA results. Historical documents and recollections can be misinterpreted or falsified: DNA is the only reliable instrument.

We have NO way of knowing the truth behind the 'some Maneghys have Turkoman blood' without DNA testing and comparison: it is entirely possible that the whole story is nothing more than a Bedouin equivalent of 'creative accountancy' in order to enhance the status of the stock owned by the tribe telling the story!

Keren
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BasiliskBelka
post Dec 19 2007, 02:10 PM
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With regard to the Caspian Horse (*not* pony - it does not have pony characteristics) as mentioned in the Turkoman thread: the last I heard from the researchers sequencing Caspian DNA, they were coming more and more to the conclusion that the Caspian was not some 'proto-Arab' or transitional breed, but in fact represented a population of Arabian horses that had become miniaturised through isolation and constant inbreeding within a limited gene pool.

Keren
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JoeFerriss
post Dec 19 2007, 03:01 PM
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I tend to think that the preservation of the desert Arabian horse in today's world is not strictly a scientific issue with lines drawn by DNA or other kinds of scientific measurement. It is fascinating and enlightening to see this kind of scientific work unfold but I feel the maintenance of the desert horse is more of a cultural matter. If future science does or does not agree with the human definitions or partitions of each breeding group it will not change my thinking.

The whole matter of trying to document in various ways horses whose ancestry is "reasonably assumed" to originate from the Bedouin horse breeding tribes is only one step of the process of preservation. It does provide a "core" population from which to build. But the second part of this process is to carry forward the body of knowledge from the Bedouin tribes past breeding and horse use practices, as much as possible in today's world, and continually apply it to this identified "core" population in hopes of simply maintaining the kind of horse which was traditionally and historically known as the Arab horse, product of these tribal lifestyles.

Even in my very limited travels, I saw the continuing impact of modern times on the lifestyle of the two tribes I visited. By their own lament, conditions are not the same as in the past. In one of our Shammar interviews, I asked the question: "Do you feel your horses are as good today as in the past?" The response in essence was that in times past the desert wolf packs used to run free and was a part of life. Their presence caused the mares and foals to be very keen and very swift to avoid the taking of the very young or weak. Today the wolf is no longer a threat, so how can the mares and foals of now be as swift?

Taking just this one story into account, it can be seen that the various challenges of the Bedouin lifestyle requires them to adapt, and adaptation needs for them to have the freedom to make choices of survival. If those choices added some DNA that we do not know about now but discover in the future, so what? It was this lifestyle process that created the Arabian that we love today.

At least from their travels and / or writings the Blunts, Homer Davenport, Carl Raswan, the Otts and many other benefactors helped to us to identify this "core". It is interesting when one goes back and reads the Blue Catalog how much of the commentary is "Bedouin" oriented, regardless of what is said about the Muniqi or non-Muniqi.

We will continue to find various ways to use this population and if some breed with and some without Muniqi, or any other strain so be it. The breeders of the world represent a great diversity of thougtht. As long as ALL of the core is preserved and a general understanding of the traditional Bedouin horse is carried forward, I see a bright future for the Arabian.

Sorry for the long post.
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diane
post Dec 19 2007, 10:36 PM
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quote:Joe Ferriss Dec 20 2007, 01:01 AM
I tend to think that the preservation of the desert Arabian horse in today's world is not strictly a scientific issue with lines drawn by DNA or other kinds of scientific measurement. It is fascinating and enlightening to see this kind of scientific work unfold but I feel the maintenance of the desert horse is more of a cultural matter. If future science does or does not agree with the human definitions or partitions of each breeding group it will not change my thinking.
The whole matter of trying to document in various ways horses whose ancestry is "reasonably assumed" to originate from the Bedouin horse breeding tribes is only one step of the process of preservation. It does provide a "core" population from which to build. But the second part of this process is to carry forward the body of knowledge from the Bedouin tribes past breeding and horse use practices, as much as possible in today's world, and continually apply it to this identified "core" population in hopes of simply maintaining the kind of horse which was traditionally and historically known as the Arab horse, product of these tribal lifestyles.
Even in my very limited travels, I saw the continuing impact of modern times on the lifestyle of the two tribes I visited. By their own lament, conditions are not the same as in the past. In one of our Shammar interviews, I asked the question: "Do you feel your horses are as good today as in the past?" The response in essence was that in times past the desert wolf packs used to run free and was a part of life. Their presence caused the mares and foals to be very keen and very swift to avoid the taking of the very young or weak. Today the wolf is no longer a threat, so how can the mares and foals of now be as swift?
Taking just this one story into account, it can be seen that the various challenges of the Bedouin lifestyle requires them to adapt, and adaptation needs for them to have the freedom to make choices of survival. If those choices added some DNA that we do not know about now but discover in the future, so what? It was this lifestyle process that created the Arabian that we love today.
At least from their travels and / or writings the Blunts, Homer Davenport, Carl Raswan, the Otts and many other benefactors helped to us to identify this "core". It is interesting when one goes back and reads the Blue Catalog how much of the commentary is "Bedouin" oriented, regardless of what is said about the Muniqi or non-Muniqi.
We will continue to find various ways to use this population and if some breed with and some without Muniqi, or any other strain so be it. The breeders of the world represent a great diversity of thougtht. As long as ALL of the core is preserved and a general understanding of the traditional Bedouin horse is carried forward, I see a bright future for the Arabian.
*


diane writes: smile.gif very succinct.
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JacqueB
post Dec 19 2007, 11:18 PM
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Thanks Joe for your post.
And thanks Diane for highlighting what you particularly found valuable & for the link on the Ahkal Teke/Caspian Horse/Arabian thread.
I still need a bit more background to understand the Muniqi- non Muniqi issue.
Through innuendo, on this thread, I think the Muniqi blood is associated with the Turkomen horse. And is that cross which was seen in the Muniqi strain some how seen as undesirable, at least by some folks?
And so what were those characteristics?
And did the Muniqi not really reach into the Nejd as much, more along northern borders - more racing types, maybe bigger? picked up by the Polish for their calvary/driving work?
Were their personality characteristics different also?
I just don't the influences which would cause a person or people to value or not value Muniqi blood.
If someone could direct me to a link that would tell me all about this issue - that would be great.
Or if you know what pages in Forbis' Blue or Gold book- I've got those. I've also go Dr. Nagal's book on Hanan.
Or if you can just write it out right here, of course that would be fantastic!
Thanks,
jb
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Kimberli Nelson
post Dec 19 2007, 11:21 PM
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If nothing else is said, it must be noted that the Otts were in fact the beginning of preservation as we know it today. We may agree to disagree about the validity of their cause but without them, would we even know or begin to understand the priceless treasure we have today?
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Marilee
post Dec 19 2007, 11:22 PM
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Dear jb:

You should get a gold star for asking all these great ?s here.

How about a blue star instead? (teacher joke, it's been a long day). biggrin.gif
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diane
post Dec 20 2007, 12:09 AM
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QUOTE (Kimberli Nelson @ Dec 20 2007, 09:21 AM)
If nothing else is said, it must be noted that the Otts were in fact the beginning of preservation as we know it today. We may agree to disagree about the validity of their cause but without them, would we even know or begin to understand the priceless treasure we have today?
*

Well written, Kimberli - my sentiments entirely (my apologies for not stating this earlier). There is room and always will be room for the Blue Catalogue even if it is history.
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diane
post Dec 20 2007, 12:33 AM
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JacqueB, Dec 20 2007, 09:18 AM writes:
And thanks Diane for highlighting what you particularly found valuable & for the link on the Ahkal Teke/Caspian Horse/Arabian thread.
I still need a bit more background to understand the Muniqi- non Muniqi issue.
Through innuendo, on this thread, I think the Muniqi blood is associated with the Turkomen horse. And is that cross which was seen in the Muniqi strain some how seen as undesirable, at least by some folks?
And so what were those characteristics?
And did the Muniqi not really reach into the Nejd as much, more along northern borders - more racing types, maybe bigger? picked up by the Polish for their calvary/driving work? Were their personality characteristics different also?
I just don't the influences which would cause a person or people to value or not value Muniqi blood.
If someone could direct me to a link that would tell me all about this issue - that would be great.
Or if you know what pages in Forbis' Blue or Gold book- I've got those. I've also go Dr. Nagal's book on Hanan.
Or if you can just write it out right here, of course that would be fantastic!
Thanks, jb
*



here's a list of strains as Raswan accounts for them.
this image is from Raswan's The Black Tents of Arabia (my life amongst the Bedouins, too which I noted the following please note:
within Raswan's Strain Chart he lists the Mu'niqi strain as BROWN not black, as commonly referred to. However, Raswan does suggest this strain "should never be allowed to mix with the others."
(handwritten on this image by Raswan's own hand). You will aslo note that Raswan defines the Mu'niqi type as speed: coarse, long lines, race horses. This combination is still ratified today by some. Although in Joe's journeys which he shares via the Al Khamsa site, it can be clearly seen that this is an unjust generalisation for the Mu'niqi strain name.

Klynstra quotes Raswan:
MU'NIQI -Speed. Long, narrow racehorse, strongly resembles the English Thoroughbred. Often coarse and common. Not at all classic type. Sloping croup, tail low set. Splendid legs.

QUOTE
A naturalized American writer, Carl Raswan, but who is not of Oriental origin, who recently published a book on Arabia, has also fallen into the quick-sands. Though he begins by giving us three strains instead of the mythical five, he not only assigns three opposite types to them, but actually includes the generic term Kehilan as one of them, with a warning that it must not be crossed with the others. This is like saying that no Thoroughbred should be crossed with the Matchem or Herod strain!

He then proceeds to give us a quite fantastic table of the relative incompatibility of strains in which he is unable to resist the glamour of the "Prophet's Five," which reappear in full force backed up by another Dinari Five! and the bar sinister of the Managhi strain is delineated in warning black!

There is not the faintest truth in the assertion that the Managhi strain "taints" the pure Arab strains, for it is as pure as the rest; or that it is "coarse" or ugly or is speedier or taller, for it is the same as the rest #1

#1 It is interesting to note that while asserting the black origin of this strain, bred from an unknown Kadish mare, he later speaks of this same strain being kept "pure'. in one family, Purity cannot be claimed for a mongrel strain.


He admits, and in fact boasts, that his sources of information are not from the desert tribes, as indeed we guessed, and his stories certainly bear the "suburban" stamp of the borderland towns; but the climax is surely reached when he claims for them "an especial value because they could not have originated among the simple nomads of the desert," and had he not told us he had been to Arabia, anyone might have concluded that, like some others, he had gone no farther than Syria or Irak.

The story of Mu'niqi (correct spelling, Managhi) is decidedly one of those which has no place in desert tradition; what he calls the "new and flowery magic carpet placed under the feet of the Arab steed by the fervour of religious leaders and the wealth and splendour of the Prophet, Sultans, Shahs, and Indian Maharajahs" is altogether too new and flowery for serious consideration. It belongs to what Lady Anne Blunt called "the atmosphere of romantic fable, spurious tradition dressed up in the garments of a new religion."

From the chapter named : The Great Myth

Lady Wentworth, The Authentic Arabian Horse and His Descendants: Three Voices Concerning the Horses of Arabia; Tradition (Nejd, Inner East); Romantic Fable (Islam); The Outside World of the West. Third Edition - 1979 First Published 1945; Second Edition 1962. If you would like to read this in context and more about this strain name ... Webpage
It must, however, always be remembered that there was a bitter battle of strong wills between Carl Schmidt aka Raswan and Lady Wentworth.


To top it all off - the mu'niqi strain, like all other strains, represents nothing more than a naming protocol smile.gif Physical attributes are relative to the gene pool. All history is but a snap-shot in time wink.gif
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JacqueB
post Dec 20 2007, 12:53 AM
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Well Diane,
I discovered you edit - thanks. Part of it is challenging me like a physics problem or actually literature - I was better at physics than literature ..
Back to the problem of understanding at hand.
To quote you -"The genetic history of the asil horse itself was not known, or by comparison, extremely limited therefore what its genetic background held in store for future generations would be found out only by the practice of breeding[/I], I'm with you "[i]and somewhat western understanding. You'll have to be more specific. " [[B]i]The immediate families from the desert and/or Egypt bred differently.[/i][/b] So that somewhat closed population of desert/Egyptian horses were different within their own population? If strains were a genetic power and were so incredibly resilient, these differences would not have happened. So you are saying that the strains would have stayed true to character and not showed the variety/differences that was seen within this closed desert/Egyptian population? There wouldn't have been family differences from the first asil imports. If the strains would have stayed true to character we should have see that in the first asil imports, but what you are saying is that was not the case, their strain did not necessarily describe their characteristics?
Am I catching on to what you are saying?
jb[/I]
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JacqueB
post Dec 20 2007, 01:18 AM
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Thanks Diane,
So the Mu'niqi is associated with the body style of a TB and not "classic Arabian type".
And that's why folks would prefer one or the other - the Arab racing fan a Mu'niqi and those that treasure that unique Arabian look the non-Mu'niqi blood.
You are a jewel for going to the trouble and time of getting this information posted.
Thank you so much. I looked up the other day where you are located in Australia - looks like it might have a better climate than Sydney.
Thanks again,
jb
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Kimberli Nelson
post Dec 20 2007, 01:29 AM
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Thank you Diane,

Having been involved with the Arabian horse for many, many years and reading everything that has been written, visited many farms and shows over the last 30 years one learns a thing or two.

When I first discovered that there were more than one name for the Arabian I was dumbfounded. You mean there are Egyptian, Blue List, BLUE STAR, Spanish, Polish, Al Khamsa, Russian, Crabbet, English, Babson, Davenport, AND them Kuhaylan, Hadban, Saklawi, Abayan, Dahman, Muniqi, and all the other spellings and families, then all the farms and their definition of the Arabian. OH MY GOSH! What have I gotten into?????

But I studied, I listened, I learned and found my own way and belief system. Much of it was not scientific but through observation. I could see the subtle difference between strains or families if you will. I could see the difference between a Bint Bint Sabbah and a Farida, Dahman. I could see the difference between a Zaafarana and a Moniet, Saklawi. I could see the difference between the horses that were the old RAS breeding and that of the newly added Inshass horses.

I had a hard time with the *Maaroufa horses as they did not breed like a Kuhaylan they bred like a Saklawi. It was strange that when you bred them together for a couple of generations they got longer and taller and more stretchy, just like the Zaafarana horses. Only to find later that they were the same mtDNN of the Ghaziha line of horses like Zaafarana. Then when I started to study the Rodans I found them to breed like the Hadbans. Which is that the mares take on more of the stallions look than the mares. Only to later learn that the Hadbans and the Rodans are of same family! The very same mtDNA...as well

The history of the Arabian horse is confusing at best and the written should never be taken as undeniable anything. We have more to learn.
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Seglavi
post Dec 20 2007, 04:08 AM
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Kim,
You said an eloquent mouthful! Go girl! There is nothing better than a fine student top dressing their education with breeding experience and a good discriminating eye.
I am following this thread with great interest, keep it coming.
Pam
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diane
post Dec 20 2007, 04:33 AM
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smile.gif my pleasure. Its slippery thwang to catch. It helped me to understand the biology and kinesiology (the mechanics of motion with respect to anatomy) of the horse first wink.gif At this point, I would like to emphasise (mho) that strains and body types are not categorically the same ie they are not interchangeable. For me, strains are a form of shorthand and as such should be used as a tool as like any other form of pedigree reference. “Strains” are not blood, they are names. The euphemism of strains has highlighted that there are differences within the Breed. These differences are truly biological ie they are skeletal etc. The strength and weaknesses (without being faulty) of the genes are what allows the varied differences. As Kimberly examples, this is where the somewhat misfortune lies when associating strain names (a naming protocol) with gene-related attributes ~ there’s no guarantee of a match ie they are not interchangeable.

Confounded by the use of strain names and compounded by the physical differences, the early writers suggested that there were many races of the Arabian as a Breed! The asil and/or the al khamsa notation seemed to be the consolidating terminology for these authors. As Mutlak was apparently to express often to Lady Blunt – they are all the same, they are all Koheilan (or words to that effect). This was after Lady Blunt had written a book or two on the Breed.

I do believe that the terms masculine type and feminine type (regardless of gender) would be more representative when referring to differences within the breed. Using strain names leads to confusion as the names don’t allow for total portrayal of type consistency. Genetics and the resulting phenotype (the unique visible form of each individual’s genotype) are the factors which dictate what the variances will be/are. The consistency (or not) of type will be the result of the strengths / weaknesses of the genes per individual mating, not by the strain names.

Phenotype may represent one (or a limited) number of types within the individual’s genetics. Breed this individual to a genetically stronger partner of a different type and differences could appear in the resulting foal(s). How the foals are bred on ie which choices are made as their partners (masculine or feminine in type) may solidify some traits (good and/or bad). The definition of good and bad is truly a personal preference (with the exception of an absolute debilitating conformational fault) – OR the breeder’s observance of the pressure to conform to nominated standards other than those of the original breeders, the nomadic Bedouin.

Therefore, in its singular form classic Arabian type is a furphy and type (singular) should be understood to relate to many types. To breed asil (including strain naming) is supposedly breeding to original nomadic Bedouin breeding practices not purely modern standards, which would include the allowance of and for variety.

Using Louis L Mann’s words: The past is always present in the future sums up breeding quite well.

For the above reasons, I’m hesitant to confirm your assumptions. However, in an effort to help understand (perhaps) what you have perceived so far...

So the Mu'niqi is associated with the body style of a TB and not "classic Arabian type". > Per Raswan’s written thoughts – yes.

And that's why folks would prefer one or the other - the Arab racing fan a Mu'niqi and those that treasure that unique Arabian look the non-Mu'niqi blood. > Yes (relating to these parameters only in context with the above)

Its worth remembering that the initial foray (or two) into the Arabian Peninsula by the Blunts was to find the source of the TB in order to obtain individuals to improve on TB in the UK. However, to their dismay, their importations, while improving their stock did not enhance their speed capabilities. Their venture was then converted to obtaining individuals as Arabians and breeding them on in their own right.

My thoughts smile.gif
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BeckyHuffman
post Dec 20 2007, 04:54 AM
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QUOTE (Razzmatazz @ Dec 16 2007, 11:46 PM)
Could someone please explain what the difference is between Blue Star and Blue List? Are they a specific family or strain...? Can a horse be both, or only one or the other?

Thank you for your input,
Teresa
*


Hi Teresa,

I saw the question and thought I might be able to answer a few questions.

*waves to JoeF and a couple other familiar faces*

Lots of good things have already been said, but I'd also like to direct you here:
http://www.bluearabianhorsecatalog.org/

many of the pages are in need of updating, but ..ummm.. here: http://www.bluearabianhorsecatalog.org/BAHCarticles.htm and click on the prologue and the articles links to see copies of the original articles from the Blue Catalog and Supplements. I always think it's helpful to be able to read the articles directly instead of generations-later discussion based on someone else's interp of what someone else thought. blink.gif

** changing hats **

It's my understanding, in the Muniqi issue, that there were rumors that a/some impure horses were mixed back in to a Muniqi herd and Miss Ott "starred" the horses in the Blue List (with a "*") that had no record of Muniqi blood in order to allow future breeders to error on the side of caution.

I lot of mean things have been said about various horses over the years - and I don't enter that debate. But I do know I like what I have and will continue breeding within the group in order to keep reproducing them.

I've been riding BLUE STARS since the 80s and raising them almost as long. ...still a newbie compared to many of the members here, but I'll be happy to answer what questions I can about my group.


Becky
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