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> Blue List And Blue Star, The difference?
BeckyHuffman
post Dec 20 2007, 05:01 AM
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>>Personally, I feel the entire 'Blue' concept is past its sell-by date.

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

I'm producing horses that are both high performance and fantastic kid and family horses.

We ride AERC Endurance and do Cowboy Mounted Shooting. We've dabbled in dressage and did SCA-eq(axe, lance, bow) and 4-h for years. I've used my top endurance horses as kid lesson horses and used them for writers' workshops, and all kinds of demos for both kids and adults. The majority of my sales are to high-performance homes or to first-time owners.

I'm not sure how the concept of that kind of using horse goes out of date.

Becky
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anitae
post Dec 20 2007, 06:40 AM
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Hello to all who have the courage to enter into this topic, which shows how a seemingly simple question can lead elsewhere.

Joe, wonderful post. I hope more breeders will come to understand the cultural aspect of "conserving" the descendents of the original Bedouin horses.

I wonder what people really expect from DNA? It won't be able to "prove" purity, and I don't think that is the point of most conservationists.

Rather, if we accept that the Bedouin bred the horses -- incorporating whatever horses according to their own practices, then our role may be to breed from those bloodlines (with, I would advocate with Joe, consideration for some Western adaptation of Bedouin cultural traditions). The BLUE STARS constitute a specific "core" (genetically sometimes called a silo) of asil bloodlines available in the west. Traditionally, conservationists have been devoted to perpetuating the silos.

For me, the question is, where do we go from here? Will we have the courage to blend bloodlines as the Bedouin (and the Pashas) did?

Anita
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diane
post Dec 20 2007, 07:00 AM
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QUOTE (anitae @ Dec 20 2007, 04:40 PM)
For me, the question is, where do we go from here? Will we have the courage to blend bloodlines as the Bedouin (and the Pashas) did?
Anita
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From here... my thoughts / personal sentiments - keep within the culture of the nomadic Bedouin ie maintaining asil, focus on and breed for a functional horse. Not necessarily a standardised horse.

unsure.gif thought that blending of bloodlines (within asil) is being done?
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JacqueB
post Dec 20 2007, 01:29 PM
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Good Morning Diane,
It's extremely valuable to me that you are so precise and thorough in your explanations. As I was getting ready for bed last night I was thinking that my comments did not really reflect a thorough understanding of the links & explanations that you offered and only described the broadest terms and not necessarily real terms for any specific situation as generalizations often do.
I've really enjoyed discovering on the forum the more complex situation & mysteries related to the development of the desert/Egyptian Arabian horse or really any horse history, being in the main a history buff.
And it's very exciting to get confirmation that breeding for function is always the bottom line. Although, in my little world I would have to say that temperament is on parallel or higher than function. I can find a good home or would enjoy riding a horse that might not be bound for high end work if it's got a good mind. Whereas, maybe a highly talented horse that had the spirit that scared the beegeebees out of me - I need to find a Phillip Dutton to ride, I don't really want to go there.
But so far I haven't had to chose temperament at the expense of function.
To my delight, the SE's I've brought along under saddle have been very straight forward and exceeded or at least met my standards for behavior, tacking up, on the trail, in the ring.
Thanks again for taking the time to share.
Jacque
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JoeFerriss
post Dec 20 2007, 02:38 PM
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JacqueB, I want to thank you for your original question about Blue Star and Blue list as it has produced a wonderfully enlightening discussion and I think the body of your question has been well handled. I chose to speak only about the bigger picture because in any situation when we start dividing up the elements of a recipe it is also important to not lose focus on the flavor of what finally comes out of the oven.

So how does this thread tie into Egyptian breeding? Getting back to the "recipe" part of the discussion, perhaps you have already looked at the relationship to the Maneghi strain in Egyptian breeding. I won't delineate all the sources here because it is more fun to do the ancestral searches yourself. In most cases the sources of the Maneghi strain in Egyptian breeding come from highly regarded individuals such as the splendid Blunt acquired desert bred mare Queen of Sheba, whose sire is Maneghi-Hadruj and dam is Abayyah Sharrakiyah. She is now almost unversally throughout Egyptian breeding both in the "old" and "new." She is also theorized by some writers as being a prime source of the black color in Egyptian breeding.

So for academic curiosity who are some of the horses imported to the US from Egypt who did NOT have known lines to the Maneghi strain? There were a number of them though not all have come forward into today's Egyptian breeding. Forgive me if I miss any but, those Egyptian imports identified in the Blue Catalog, who exist in TODAY's straight Egyptian breeding are: *Shahwan, *Ghazala (1896), *Exochorda, *Maaroufa, *Nasr, and *Fadl. (*Nasr, *Exochorda, and *Fadl are prominent in the Blue Star breeding group.) There are also two other Egyptian imports to the US found in today's straight Egyptians who have no recorded Maneghi in their pedigrees, but their importation came after the Blue Catalog ceased publishing updates. So their "Blue Star" category will have to be a matter of whether they receive that official designation from the Catalog's author. Perhaps this has been now done, I do not know. These two are *Ibn Hafiza and *Serenity Bint Nadia. In the early 1970s a man in Texas who owned some excellent straight Egyptians and also some excellent Blue Star mares, decided to breed the Blue Star mares to *Ibn Hafiza, so his blood is found in a small but exceptional breeding group of horses of Blue Star breeding.

Regardless of whether "with or without" Maneghi is a consideration, I often thought how it would have been fortunate for the future to have bred *Ibn Hafiza to *Serenity Bint Nadia for several times but, alas, it was not to be. The other main value in this mating would be to produce straight Egyptians who, for outcross purposes, did not carry any lines to the Blunt acquired desert breds which are so prevalent worldwide. I am sure they are prevalent for good reason, but if we could turn back the clock knowing what we know now, we would have had a few more opportunities for preserving a kind of fragile diversity we once had.
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Echo1
post Dec 20 2007, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 18 2007, 04:21 PM)
I need a history lesson here.
What is Mu'niqiyah, Mu'iqui blood?  I think I understand it to be a strain.  If it is a strain, then what are the characteristics of that strain? Be sure and answer this question & be specific - no euphemisms.

Then Echo1 says the mares of that strain were bred to Turkomen stallions. And I'm guessing we don't know if all of the mares were bred to Turkomen stallion and what horses were not products of Mu'iqui/Turkomen blood?  Then Echo1 describes an effort to save the strain from the influence of Turkomen blood by breeding it out to a functional degree over many generations, so these are included in the blue list horses?

Is Diane's point that any desert/asil horse may have Mu'iqui blood and therefore Turkomen blood if you go back far enough? Including the Abbas Pasha horses which is largely the basis for the PS definition of SE? and, of course, Blue Star horses?

Please understand I don't care what the answer is I just want to know what we know and don't know....  and taking the easy way out by asking here instead of going to the Middle East, digging in libraries, having all the books....
Thanks
Jacque
*



Hi Jacque,

The Mu'iniqiyat is a strain, one of the classic strains, which was around for thousands of years.

However, a few hundred years ago, some of the Mu'niqi mares were mixed with the blood of Turkomen stallions by the Salqa and later the Mu'niqi of the Fi'dan.

But no, not all of the strains were bred to Turkomen as descibed by Diane. This is incorrect. Although it may appear that way when you look at history from the present time and then back, instead of looking at history in a chronological order. or from past to present.

As with all strains there are substrains.
The Mu'iniqi for example had the Mu'niqi had several....
The Davenport horses for example were of the Mu'niqi-Hadruj. Not mixed with Turkomen, and clearly we can see the difference in these horses as opposed to those who were mixed Turkomen and described as follows:
... a long, narrow, straight neck. The body type is known to be angular as opposed to rounded. In regards to type they were described as plain, sometimes coarse. Their most noteable characteristic was their speed.

The Fid'an mixed their Mu'niqi mares with the Mu'niqi mares of the Salqa which then caused Turcoman blood to seep into the Mu'niqi of the Fidan.
This is where the Mr. Darley got his horse, from the Fi'dan.
The Fi'dan chief told Mr. Darley that both parents of the colt he (darley) selected were of the Mu'niqi strain. This was true, but as we know strain reflects females and there was no mention of the Turkomen blood because it was through stallions that this blood got in there.

The combination of classic Mu'niqi to Turkomen stallions gave a new look, most often described as 'angular'. (described above).

In regards to Abbas Pasha...there were several 'related' strains to the Mu'niqi and the Abbas Pasha had Rabdan horses, and was unmixed with this Mu'niqi blood.

So no, not all strains were mixed with Turkomen. And not even all Mu'niqi were mixed with Turkomen.

So from a strict preservation point of view of 'when in doubt, leave it out'. Fanaticists worked in a three fold process to try to remedy the situation.
First, all NON-Mu'niqi were identified.(Blue Star) Then those who were Mu'niqi but not known to have been crossed into Turkomen stallions, were bred specificallly away from Mu'niqi influence and any 'angular type'(BLue List) And finally, after the phenotype was re-established to what the classic Mu'niqi was known to be, they went after the pedigree in that, the horses who resembled the classic Mu'niqi could be reintroduced back to other classic strains which were being preserved by the Blue Star and Blue List fanatics.

I'm trying my best to explain it as well as I understand what happened, but I'm not always the best to explain things.

What is important from how I see it, is that as breeders, we should be aware of this because all of this does help us very much in how to understand where certain looks come from, sometimes desirable and sometimes not. But there are keys found in history which are very helpful in making breeding decisions. It just depends upon how particular a breeder is and how much they want to consider when breeding SE horses.

Becky,
I understand you think it is a 'past sell by date'. But you know, if I were you, and into racing horses, I'd really want to look for non-blue horses with alot of Mu'niqi. They were known for their speed. Just a thought. I hope you don't mind. wink.gif
Or from an opposite point of view, if you have necks on a horse who are thin, flat, narrow, upside-down, and the horse is very angular, you might want to look at some Blue horses.
Not saying any of this is a complete and absolute fix, but it could be a step in the right direction or give someone an idea of where to look to try to fix what they are after.
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JacqueB
post Dec 20 2007, 03:25 PM
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Ahh Joe,
Went to the AHA arabdatasource and they've got a picture of Queen of Sheba - she has what I call "alot of stretch" which I associate with Abbeyan - her damside. But could also be associated with a TB body type - although plenty of us have seen TB's that looked more like quarter horses. But then you include Ibn Hafiza as a non - Maneghi and I think of Ibn Hafiza as having alot of leg & big - he may have been rounded, but he was stretchey, too, from the pictures I've seen. So now I'm remembering Diane's point of view which is that the phenotype of the horse does not necessarily follow the strain - "they breed differently".
very interesting.
Since I haven't seen the Blue list/Blue star catalog - is it like Al Khamsa where some of the population of the PS definition of SE is also Al Khamsa, but there are Al Khamsa horses that are not SE according to the PS definition - are there Blue list horses that are not SE or Al Khamsa or are all Blue list horses SE or Al Khamsa?
I just saw your post Echo1, thanks for elaborating on the Maneghi, Mu'iniqiyat. Where do you find this stuff out? going to Al Khamsa conventions - speakers? Books on it? Understand I'm not questioning the validity of the information, just want to know where to go looking...if I take the time...
Thanks everyone!
jb
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Bandit
post Dec 20 2007, 03:55 PM
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Arey you having fun yet JacqueB? biggrin.gif.
Im having a blast.

I think itd be very difficult to find this wealth of information and colorful commentary in only one book eh?

A sincere thank you to all the generous people who have taken the time to share your knowledge here. I hope this thread can continue for many more pages.

Thank you Diane for posting the strain pages from one of Raswans books. Because his books are very expensive, I will only be able to see such things because of the generousity of people such as yourself.

Id like to send out a special thank you Mr. Joe Ferriss for sharing with us here. Its a pleasure for me (and Im sure for others as well) to read your thoughts presented here Sir. Thank you very much for posting. smile.gif

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if those "stretchy" Arabians look like thoroughbreds because those body types made good race horses and contributed alot of phenotype that is still preserved in the Thorougbred horse of today? Its not that some Arabian types look like Thoroughbreds but that Thoroughbreds look like some types of Arabians. Would someone mind commenting on this?
Maybe Im being too picky here. I mean we all know that about the Darley Arabian but I guess its only that it bothers me when I read the phrase and Ive said it myself..."That Arabian looks like a Thoroughbred".
Maybe I should next time say, "That Arabian looks like a Turkoman". ph34r.gif
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JacqueB
post Dec 20 2007, 03:59 PM
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You know, I've been thinking, "why don't I know much about this Maneghi, Mu'iniqiyat strain stuff?'
My introductory source of info has been Forbis' Blue & Gold book - I haven't really read those straight through, although, I've probably at least one time read everything in them. And some pages I've read numerous times.
The Gold book is really about Ansata and so I can only presume she was not a fan of the Maneghi, Mu'iniqiyat strain - so it's not in there.
But what about the Blue Book - Authentic Arabian Bloodstock?
Can anyone enlighten me on why discussion on this strain is absent in her Blue book?
Jacque
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Nadj al Nur
post Dec 20 2007, 04:21 PM
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Actually, some of Raswan's books are very available, and relatively inexpensive. If you go to abebooks.com, you can usually find "Black Tents" and "The Arab and his Horse" for less than thirty dollars. The Index is usually there too, but is, of course, more expensive.
And, Jacque......MY Abbeyans are very compact horses, fourteen two.....fourteen three........LOL
Cathy
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Bandit
post Dec 20 2007, 04:32 PM
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I guess I should of said "some" of Raswans books are very expensive. Ive got the cheap ones! Hahaha
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JoeFerriss
post Dec 20 2007, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 20 2007, 04:25 PM)
Ahh Joe,
Went to the AHA arabdatasource and they've got a picture of Queen of Sheba - she has what I call "alot of stretch" which I associate with Abbeyan - her damside.  But could also be associated with a TB body type - although plenty of us have seen TB's that looked more like quarter horses.  But then you include Ibn Hafiza as a non - Maneghi and I think of Ibn Hafiza as having alot of leg & big - he may have been rounded, but he was stretchey, too, from the pictures I've seen....
Since I haven't seen the Blue list/Blue star catalog - is it like Al Khamsa where some of the population of the PS definition of SE is also Al Khamsa, but there are Al Khamsa horses that are not SE according to the PS definition - are there Blue list horses that are not SE or Al Khamsa or are all Blue list horses SE or Al Khamsa?....
jb
*


Queen of Sheba is well described and admired by the Blunts who wanted her since they first saw her in the desert. She was admired for her wonderful action and riding quality and overall style. Similar things were said about her son *Astraled who was imported here. From the few published photos of her it is hard to evaluate her overall type accurately but her frame seems long with deep girth. Her head type did seem to persist in her offspring along also with wonderful shoulders and previoiusly described action. She seemed to have wonderful, expressive eyes though set in a rather long and full head. I think the Blunts knew Thoroughbreds well when they saw her but I do not remember them giving any analogies in this regard.

As for *Ibn Hafiza, I saw him numerous times and he was one of my favorites. I am only guessing but I think he was more rounded than Queen of Sheba. Both are of the Abayyan strain. He had both stretch and rounded lines. He did not photograph accurately like he looked in person. He was a little over 15 hands, like *Nasr, and when relaxed he was quite rounded but when extended had a very flowing frame. He had tremendous, flowing action and was a very dramatic sight to see in motion. If you study carefully the photos of the get of Rabdan El Azrak, including his sons Ibn Rabdan and Hadban (MNL), I think you could see a lot of this influence in *Ibn Hafiza who is line bred to Ibn Rabdan. In some ways *Ibn Hafiza reminded me of a Babson type of horse with more height. Years ago, I took riding lessons during winter months on Almileegy, (*Ibn Hafiza x *Bint Bint El Samraa) who was a very dark bay, 15.3 hand horse. At this same time we were leasing from Anchor Hill Ranch the well known Char Echo (Negem [Babson] x Sirhabba [Babson-Sirecho]) who was an older horse, and only 14 hands. Remarkably both horses had long, full, curvy necks with very prominent shoulders and withers and had very similar rides, long, round, reachy and springy, landing on the ground softly. Both had wonderful temperaments, and loved being ridden. Since Babson bred horses are also so line-bred to Ibn Rabdan, I think Ibn Rabdan could be the main influence for the type you describe seeing in the photos of *Ibn Hafiza. In the Blue Catalog, Ibn Rabdan is classified Blue Star.

I include here two pictures for instructional viewing only of *Ibn Hafiza, with photo credit to Judi Forbis, and you can see what I am describing about him.

Attached Image
Attached Image
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BasiliskBelka
post Dec 20 2007, 06:26 PM
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What I meant by the Blue Catalogue being 'past its best-before date' is that, thanks to the work of Al Khamsa, the information in the Blue Catalogue has been superceded by more extensive research which gives a more accurate picture of our foundation lines. The Ott's work was important as a first step, but they only had very limited information, and relied too much on one source (Raswan). That is why I feel it has lost much of its relevance to breeders today,when we have such a broader knowledge base to work from, as well as a broader pool of bloodlines from *outside* the USA.

I have been 'hands on' with the Arabian horse for 30 years, and for 29 of those I have been 100% behind the preservation of the asil Arabian, not to mention having been always 200% behind the 'doing' Arab.

However, the more widely I read, the more I came to understand the limitations of Raswan as a sole source. No scientist or historian depends on a single source to make an incontrovertible claim: you always look for supporting material elsewhere. As things stand, we have no actual hard PROOF that Blue Stars have no Maneghy ancestry, just as we currently have no hard proof that Maneghys were indeed crossed with Turkoman horses. Certainly I don't think you'd find Gil Grissom prepared to go into court with the information we have at present laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

For these reasons, I wouldn't advise newcomers to SE/preservation breeding to delve too much into the Blue Catalogue/Raswan, but to focus on the far more exhaustively-researched material available in Al Khamsa publications.

Keren
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Jenny Lees
post Dec 20 2007, 06:35 PM
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QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 11:54 PM)
I doubt going to the middle east would get you any more answers than can be found in your own country.

Look at some of the horses that are being exported far and wide from different countries to the ME. Im not saying that the horses that are going there are inferior  I  just doubt a Arabian Bedouin migrating thru the Nejd would of been interested in many of them. Maybe Im wrong about this though. This is just my opinion and of course everyone has one of those.  tongue.gif

Flame suit on and ready for blastoff.  ph34r.gif

There is alot of wisdom in Echo1s words though--I believe people should be given the facts as they were, and we can all decide for ourselves what direction we want to go.

Echo 1, please tell us why there is negativity about preservation breeding?
Real preservation breeding. Not just putting two horses together and hoping for the best.

Diane, please come back. I like to hear what you have to say.  smile.gif
*

gbfahne.gif I was told of a conversation between two Arabs during a WAHO Conference. One Arab invited the other Arab, a Bahraini delegate, back to his country, (I am keeping this vague so as not to offend). He said to the Bahraini delegate, you should come and visit and I will show my countries Arabian horses, the Bahraini said "your country doesn't have any Arabian horses, it has American Arabians, German Arabians, English Arabians etc. etc. where are your Arabian horses? But if you come to Bahrain I will show my countries horses, I can show you Bahraini horses". Just thought this aside might be amusing in the light of current posts. Sort of "straight from the horses mouth." biggrin.gif Jenny.
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Jenny Lees
post Dec 20 2007, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (anitae @ Dec 20 2007, 07:40 AM)
For me, the question is, where do we go from here? Will we have the courage to blend bloodlines as the Bedouin (and the Pashas) did?

Anita
*

gbfahne.gif Hi Anita..I think Hansi responded to a similar question somewhere on this Forum with "not until there are two moons in the sky" .But don't worry I have the ingredients and the Abbas Pash recipe book. I have been mixing my Asil Bedu (Bahraini) blood with pure Crabbet and Straight Egyptian it's early days yet but Inshallah there are three old fashioned recipe babies arriving during 2008......I will post photos so you can see the results and watch their progress biggrin.gif Jenny
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