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> Blue List And Blue Star, The difference?
BeckyHuffman
post Dec 21 2007, 02:31 AM
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I'm afraid I'm confused by the discussion about the relationship of the Muniqi strain and the BLUE STAR horses.

It's my understanding that the BLUE STARs were listed and kept in a closed group in the case it was true that the Muniqi strain was contaminated.

I'm not sure I follow the reasoning of how that was meant to somehow purify the possibly contaminated Muniqi? I don't understand. sad.gif
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BeckyHuffman
post Dec 21 2007, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE (diane @ Dec 20 2007, 08:00 AM)
From here... my thoughts / personal sentiments - keep within the culture of the nomadic Bedouin ie maintaining asil, focus on and breed for a functional horse.  Not necessarily a standardised horse.

unsure.gif thought that blending of bloodlines (within asil) is being done?
*


within the BLUE group, we have an elaborate network of groups and subgroups and should have out-crosses within the group for many many more generations.

We have also some horses with very tight pedigrees that are working and breeding on very nicely.

I've had two very nice 1/2BLUE fillies, but it's not something I plan to do routinely. I'm very happy with what I'm producing within the group and will let other experiment.

Is that what you're asking?
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diane
post Dec 21 2007, 03:05 AM
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QUOTE (diane @ Dec 20 2007, 10:33 AM)
From the chapter named : The Great Myth
Lady Wentworth, The Authentic Arabian Horse and His Descendants: Three Voices Concerning the Horses of Arabia; Tradition (Nejd, Inner East); Romantic Fable (Islam); The Outside World of the West. Third Edition - 1979 First Published 1945; Second Edition 1962.  If you would like to read this in context and more about this strain name ... Webpage
It must, however, always be remembered that there was a bitter battle of strong wills between Carl Schmidt aka Raswan and Lady Wentworth.
*

Kelly, my copy of this book is the 1979 version biggrin.gif

It has to be your life's ambition to misquote me, Kelly. But, so long as this is understood, there's not much else that can be done to resolve the issue. I encourage anyone to review the original posts in context.
smile.gif
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diane
post Dec 21 2007, 03:08 AM
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QUOTE (BeckyHuffman @ Dec 21 2007, 12:25 PM)
Different breeders have different goals - and you see that over the generations.  Unless a breeder has firmly in mind to reproduce the ancient type, the horses are likely to drift with the eye and mind of the breeder, be it to current fads or a different type of use.
*

Great point smile.gif
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diane
post Dec 21 2007, 04:41 AM
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Joe - thank you for the candid images of Ibn Hafiza. They somewhat remind me of my own sE. Though, by suggestion, there would be a height difference via the legs smile.gif

Hindsight is bliss. Contrary to some sentiments, I do feel the asil breed is a relatively small, finite gene pool (regardless of the numbers within the asil population) requiring an open mind to functional body types. It is plausible that an element of this finite gene pool, which represents the essence of the nomadic Bedouin's desert horse, maybe lost if our modern visions and interpretations somewhat over-rules the ancients.
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Tous crins
post Dec 21 2007, 05:42 AM
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There are quite a few pictures of Muniquis taken by Joe during a trip to the Middle east.
here

for instance,
Atiyah, a 6 year old Mu’niqi Sbaili Ibn Saifain stallion in the stud of Basil Jadaan’sa very balanced and typy horse with a wonderful disposition.
Attached Image


Interesting to compare to the angular Raswan pictures.
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JacqueB
post Dec 21 2007, 01:05 PM
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thanks Tous Crins,
for that link, also had a list of books that Joe recommended for reading that I'll have to explore.
I read where people learned stuff from speakers at the Al Khamsa convention - might have to join there and get their publication, too.
I like what I saw of the Mu'niqi and the Abayyan. Loved that picture of the guy standing on his horse!
The list of strains was an eye opener for me
Jacque
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BasiliskBelka
post Dec 21 2007, 01:42 PM
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Um - before anyone not familiar with Raswan aka Carl Schmidt starts thinking he is some kind of superhero, I suggest they read Mary Jane Parkinson's "Kellogg Ranch - the first 50 years".

For those who can't access a copy, here's the story in brief:

Schmidt came to England as WK Kellogg's agent to buy horses from Lady Wentworth. He misrepresented himself to Lady W, something she only realised later after corresponding with Kellogg. Lady W certainly gave the horse Raswan to Schmidt, but the horse was last transferred into Kellogg's ownership. After falling out with Kellogg, Schmidt decided to take Raswan and some other horses away from the Kellogg Ranch - without informing anyone of his intention. He took Raswan first and left the horse tied to a fence while we went back to fetch further animals. Evidently, he didn't tie the horse safely, as Raswan broke away and ran into the path of a horse-drawn hay mower, sustaining a terrible leg injury from the blades. The Kellogg Ranch staff took the horse back to the ranch and did eveerything they could to save him, but after considerable suffering, Raswan had to be put down. Kellogg then took Schmidt to court for his actions - and won.

Thus, Carl Schmidt was the sole cause of a completely avoidable accident that resulted in the terrible suffering and untimely death of the horse he 'loved so much'.

It should also be realised that Schmidt only spent a few years in the desert, within a limited circle of tribes. Thus, the knowledge he gained was necessarily circumscribed, as shown by his false pronouncements on white markings and blue eyes, to give just a couple of examples.

In contrast, Lady Anne Blunt spent the majority of her adult life in Arabia and/or Egypt, devoting herself to learning as much as she could about the Arabian horse and its background from every source available to her. She had access to the documentation amassed by Abbas Pasha as well as first-hand information from many tribes AND information from the Polish travellers in Arabia. Lady Anne was the first to admit that her early writings contained inaccuracies, and strove to correct errors. Sadly, the book she was writing on the Arabian horse was never finished, due to her death in 1917, though Lady Wentworth incorporated at least some of it into 'The Authentic Arabian'.

I am no advocate for Lady W, since it is known she was not above making facts fit her view of the world, rather than vice-versa, but she was able to draw on a far more comprehensive personal experience of the Arab in its countries of origin as well as her mother's writings, so one suspects that there may be more than a little truth in her view that Schmidt/Raswan traded on the relative ignorance of American breeders at the period to enhance his own standing beyond that which his knowledge justified.

Keren
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BeckyHuffman
post Dec 21 2007, 02:27 PM
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Wouldn't it be nice if the world was cleanly divided into "good guys" and "bad guys", and "lies" and "truth" were obvious and distinct?
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Tous crins
post Dec 21 2007, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 21 2007, 05:05 AM)
thanks Tous Crins,
for that link, also had a list of books that Joe recommended for reading that I'll have to explore.
I read where people learned stuff from speakers at the Al Khamsa convention - might have to join there and get their publication, too.
I like what I saw of the Mu'niqi and the Abayyan.  Loved that picture of the guy standing on his horse!
The list of strains was an eye opener for me
Jacque
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Hi Jacques,

You were at the Convention?
There are so many people I never got a chance to meet.

Christine
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JacqueB
post Dec 21 2007, 05:24 PM
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No Christine, didn't make it to the west coast. Did go to the National Breeders conference and there's probably a book list in the wonderful 3 ring binder that was given to the attendees now that I think about it.
When it was so hot this summer I kept thinking about how long it has been since I've been to San Francisco, I was dreaming of those just barely warm afternoons that cooled off as soon as the fog rolled in for the late afternoon, wanted to go to the new baseball park and just walk the streets and smell the eucalyptus trees in Golden Gate park. mmmmmm...
Well I'll get back there someday and hopefully the Al Khamsa convention won't always be on the west coast.
I forget where you are in California. I spent some years of my childhood in Napa Valley, have great memories of Goat Rock and Bodega Bay - my Dad would take me out of school when there was a storm on the pacific and around Goat Rock we'd climb out on the rocks and go incredibly far daring the waves to wash us off - we always brought 3 changes of clothes. Scares the beegeebees out of me to think of how close to death we really were.
Think I'm getting off track -
Do you ever go to the EE?
Maybe I'll see you there next year!
jb
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Tous crins
post Dec 21 2007, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 21 2007, 09:24 AM)
No Christine, didn't make it to the west coast.  Did go to the National Breeders conference and there's probably a book list in the wonderful 3 ring binder that was given to the attendees now that I think about it.
When it was so hot this summer I kept thinking about how long it has been since I've been to San Francisco, I was dreaming of those just barely warm afternoons that cooled off as soon as the fog rolled in for the late afternoon, wanted to go to the new baseball park and just walk the streets and smell the eucalyptus trees in Golden Gate park. mmmmmm...
Well I'll get back there someday and hopefully the Al Khamsa convention won't always be on the west coast.
I forget where you are in California. I spent some years of my childhood in Napa Valley, have great memories of Goat Rock and Bodega Bay - my Dad would take me out of school when there was a storm on the pacific and around Goat Rock we'd climb out on the rocks and go incredibly far daring the waves to wash us off - we always brought 3 changes of clothes.  Scares the beegeebees out of me to think of how close to death we really were.
Think I'm getting off track -
Do you ever go to the EE?
Maybe I'll see you there next year!
jb
*


Hi Jacque,

My husband grew up in the Bay area. I love it. I grew up in Belgium, French speaking (that is why it is odd knowing you are not a man as you are the only woman I know named Jacque). I am in Juniper Hills, in the high desert.

I have been quite a few times to the EE but not last year. It has always been a lot of fun! I will probably not go the Convention next year (Oklahoma) but am tempted by 2009 in Oregon as I love the place and want to see the Doyle horses.

Christine
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JacqueB
post Dec 21 2007, 05:58 PM
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Christine,
Do you speak Dutch?
jb
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Tous crins
post Dec 21 2007, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE (JacqueB @ Dec 21 2007, 09:58 AM)
Christine,
Do you speak Dutch?
jb
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I learned at school as second language but have forgotten most of it. Might come back if I was immersed again. I have even forgotten some of my mother tongue!
Why?

Christine
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diane
post Dec 22 2007, 09:35 AM
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Becky writes: Wouldn't it be nice if the world was cleanly divided into "good guys" and "bad guys", and "lies" and "truth" were obvious and distinct?

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