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> Blue List And Blue Star, The difference?
Razzmatazz
post Dec 16 2007, 10:46 PM
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Could someone please explain what the difference is between Blue Star and Blue List? Are they a specific family or strain...? Can a horse be both, or only one or the other?

Thank you for your input,
Teresa
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reidfm
post Dec 16 2007, 11:43 PM
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The Blue Arabian Horse Catalog -- Jane Llewellyn Ott, copyright 1961:
"The BAHC is published to encourage the preservation and increased production of the type of Arabian Horse originally found in the possession of the Bedouin tribes of Arabia, and bred in other countries by breeders whose foundation stock was drawn entirely from those tribes. The catalogued stock has not been screened for quality, nor were the entries selected individually."
"The stock in the catalog is divided into two categories: the BLUE STAR LIST and the Blue List. The background of both categories is the same except that the BLUE STAR animals have no Muniqi blood".

Quoted from the catalog, Floyd Reid
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diane
post Dec 17 2007, 01:35 AM
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QUOTE (reidfm @ Dec 17 2007, 09:43 AM)
The Blue Arabian Horse Catalog -- Jane Llewellyn Ott, copyright 1961:
"The BAHC is published to encourage the preservation and increased production of the type of Arabian Horse originally found in the possession of the Bedouin tribes of Arabia, and bred in other countries by breeders whose foundation stock was drawn entirely from those tribes. The catalogued stock has not been screened for quality, nor were the entries selected individually."
"The stock in the catalog is divided into two categories: the BLUE STAR LIST and the Blue List. The background of both categories is the same except that the BLUE STAR animals have no Muniqi blood".

Quoted from the catalog,              Floyd Reid
*


Its understood these days that this should be read as : no known Muniqi blood. The reason being that categorical proof is needed before it can be stated that there is no Muniqi blood within a pedigree. Without knowing every single individual within the entire pedigree, categorical proof is not possible.
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Razzmatazz
post Dec 17 2007, 01:36 PM
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Can you please explain the issue with Muniqi? Why is that the difference between them?
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Echo1
post Dec 17 2007, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE (diane @ Dec 17 2007, 02:35 AM)
Its understood these days that this should be read as : no known Muniqi blood.  The reason being that categorical proof is needed before it can be stated that there is no Muniqi blood within a pedigree.  Without knowing every single individual within the entire pedigree, categorical proof is not possible.
*


untrue
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diane
post Dec 17 2007, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 12:30 AM)
untrue
*

ok - prove it.

Apologies... let me rephrase this.... please substantiate your answer biggrin.gif
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diane
post Dec 17 2007, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE (Razzmatazz @ Dec 17 2007, 11:36 PM)
Can you please explain the issue with Muniqi? Why is that the difference between them?
*

The generalised description of the Muniqi was more of a racer - longer, finer perhaps a tad course.

Its been proven time and again that this statement is a generalisation and one may suggest bias towards an issue.
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Bandit
post Dec 17 2007, 10:55 PM
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If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound? smile.gif

Just because Blue Star horses have no recorded muniqui blood in them doesnt mean they dont have any. It just means that no one knows if they do or not.
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Echo1
post Dec 18 2007, 12:36 AM
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QUOTE (diane @ Dec 17 2007, 11:29 PM)
The generalised description of the Muniqi was more of a racer - longer, finer perhaps a tad course. 

Its been proven time and again that this statement is a generalisation and one may suggest bias towards an issue.
*



Also untrue.
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Echo1
post Dec 18 2007, 12:38 AM
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QUOTE (reidfm @ Dec 17 2007, 12:43 AM)
The Blue Arabian Horse Catalog -- Jane Llewellyn Ott, copyright 1961:
"The BAHC is published to encourage the preservation and increased production of the type of Arabian Horse originally found in the possession of the Bedouin tribes of Arabia, and bred in other countries by breeders whose foundation stock was drawn entirely from those tribes. The catalogued stock has not been screened for quality, nor were the entries selected individually."
"The stock in the catalog is divided into two categories: the BLUE STAR LIST and the Blue List. The background of both categories is the same except that the BLUE STAR animals have no Muniqi blood".

Quoted from the catalog,              Floyd Reid
*



This would be true
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Echo1
post Dec 18 2007, 12:39 AM
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QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 17 2007, 11:55 PM)
If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound? smile.gif

.
*



A tree lying on the ground

is proof that it fell
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diane
post Dec 18 2007, 02:53 AM
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QUOTE (Bandit @ Dec 18 2007, 08:55 AM)
If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound? smile.gif
Just because Blue Star horses have no recorded muniqui blood in them doesnt mean they dont have any. It just means that no one knows if they do or not.
*

Thanks Bandit smile.gif
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Bandit
post Dec 18 2007, 03:13 AM
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QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 17 2007, 06:39 PM)
A tree lying on the ground

is proof that it fell
*


Well sugar, if you have proof then lets see it because you have some very important information there. I know of a few books that need to be rewritten if your information can hold up under close scrutiny and one woman who needs to sit down before being told of this awesome information less the poor dear faint at being told the good news.

I would like to be like the banty rooster..the cock of the walk, letting everyone know my blue star mare definitely has no muniqi blood in her and her and her Blue Star relatives are one step closer to reaching proof of absolute purity.

Me thinks your information is too valuable to keep it to yourself so please do my ego a huge favor and post the valuable information here, I cant wait to see it. smile.gif.
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JoeFerriss
post Dec 18 2007, 04:10 AM
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I am just saying this off the top of my head without going back into the archives to look up anything . I think that Miss Jane Ott and her mother Mrs John Erken Ott in their writings at some point indicated that this concept of sorting out the likely non Muniqi with those that contain some measure of the Muniqi strain was chosen at their point in time (Mid 1950s to late 1960s) as worth doing in the event that if theories were proven true about the differences in Muniqi suggested by Carl Raswan, if something was not done about it then then later on it would be too late. I believe they even said in some manner that if the theories were not true the point would be moot but it was not worth the gamble to wait. Whether the riddle ever gets solved or not, I do not know, but what gets often overlooked is that many of the Arabians chosen as the foundation for the BLUE STAR non-Muniqi group were genetically rich outcrosses to other Egyptian and desert breeding and in creating this BLUE STAR breeding group, a whole new gene pool was preserved, and one that from my personal observation of many of these individuals provided some excellent Arabians much like those I saw among the Bedouin tribes and also of many of the Davenport Arabians. For a time in the late 1970s and early 1980s some people crossed BLUE STAR stock with Egyptian and other Al Khamsa and some excellent results were produced. Sadly this was not fashionable at the time and not carried forward. For those like myself who bred mainly Egyptian-Turfa stock we had the advantage of using some BLUE STAR horses. I leased a BLUE STAR stallion one time my self. In the bigger picture, the BLUE STAR movement was the only other significant movement, besides the Davenport breeding program, which preserved some significant desert breeding, similar to the way horses were bred in Egypt via the Inshass Stud with Saud and other desert stock added and the RAS which from time to time found outcross desert stock which extended the vitality of the breeding program. In fact as early as Lady Anne Blunt's desert bred stallion Saadoun, in the Durra line, succeeding generations of periodic introduction of outcross desert breeding has been of benefit in Egyptian breeding. So whether one chooses to subscribe to the basis of BLUE STAR breeding or not, it has given us a rich source of desert blood not related to either Davenport or other Egyptian lines.
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diane
post Dec 18 2007, 04:42 AM
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QUOTE (Echo1 @ Dec 18 2007, 10:39 AM)
A tree lying on the ground  is proof that it fell
*

... the tree on the ground isn't proving whether or not it made a sound as it fell. It simply states the tree is on the ground. Nobody can say that it made a sound while it fell because no one heard it.

There is no known record of Muniqi strains within the Blue Stars. Not ALL records are known (because they were verbal recounts which concentrated on the tail female only) so there is no proof whether or not Muniqi strain names are within the Blue Stars.

Miss JL Ott has limited information. We all have limited information about the history of the Breed. What we do know now is the extent of what we don't know! blink.gif smile.gif
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