Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192
You have heard me, others complaining,taken things appart, and making statements which made some people very angry, especially when it touches their bloodline/horses.
Well, there is a reason for it. Some of us look at a horse and figure out what it might be able to do. But when you see some 300 horses in various halter classes at the EE and you say" what on earth can we do with these, other than a handful".it is getting very grim. When some of us know that by actual pedigree/ancestors they should be different
Nobody has a perfect horse, but at least it should be functional for something within its capabilities/limits.
For instance, giving a horse 16 poins for legs, when it has one bad one which will not stand up. Its like a car, having one flat tire. Such horse should get the lowest points ever. Should this insult, I think not. At least the owner/breeder will learn.
When I see those heads looking to the stars I can feel the pressure put on its back muscles. when I see those high heels, I feel the pressure on my knees and body. When I see those tiny feet I worry stumbling over any little twigg. When I see the mutton whithers, I feel I will move between the ears. When I see the shallow girth, I worry about the heart and lung capacity, when I see those slight rearends I shiever. And on and on and on. How then can some end up with high points 18-20?? that's beyond me..
Now why would any trainer, who is a horsemen/women not point this out to the owners? So the one-eye becomes the winner among the blind. And then there are objections against the name "garden ornaments". What else shall we call them? How can anybody go bananas over a foal, and untested horse,, when we really dont know what it will become? We can have hopes, based on structure and behavior, sometimes even wishfull thinking, but that really is all.
I like to hear from you what you think,. what you see, what you anticipate from a horse, how you evaluate, what you would pick out of a line up.
We have ended up becoming bandwaggon addicts by and large. Just examine the various posts and subjects over this forum.It always and ever will be the same. Have you ever heard Bazy Tankersly or myself bringing forth raving over a foal/youngster? Have you heard Michalow,Janow, Tersk,Marbach,Babolna and on and on doing it? they know better. How about the accomplishments under saddle?
What we are doing showing our happiness, our love for the newborn, our exitement and I understand that. But it should not end up that that is the last and best thing on this earth in equine. How often do we hear about them when they are adults? We are discussing heads, size etc but seldom the real thing, the horse. We get insulted when someone makes remarks we dont like and get mad and hate such person, when they should be grateful learning something.
the Bedus today treasure certain bloodlines, like the Hamdanis, the Nowakiyas, etc.this is based on their experiences with such lines under saddle and by their production. what do we do? We go by who owns it and the richer the person, the more the applause. We think the SEs are the best on this earth, when not all are and we overlook other top Non-SE bloodlines.We dont look at our competitors globally and then wonder why we cant compete well with all.And does everybody grade their herd? I do.The breeders mentioned above do.!
Therefore, I think we all need to discuss these things more closely,without getting upset,angry or hateful.Therefore, let us hear what you think, any solution you can offer and how we all can work together to start solving some serious problems.
Joined: 25-July 03
From: Lenexa, KS USA
Member No.: 651
I remember going to a farm seminar in the early 90s where an agent had the "magic" formula for determining the value of a foal. A colt not six months old was paraded before us and the agent performed their magic and declared that the foal was valued at $100,000. We were new to the horse industry and I was astonished and very skeptical. My instincts proved correct as the agent is no longer in the business. Unfortunately, there are a lot of unfortunate souls who bought into his gibberish and have perpetuated this nonsense. Was I a great horseman for not buying into this scam. NOPE! I was green & I want to beleive it was just common sense. Over the years I watched the agent put forth one after another marketing scheme that was too good to be true. Was it PT BARNUM who said there is a sucker born every minute?
Joined: 23-November 07
From: Warwick QLD Australia
Member No.: 9660
Hello Hansi, I wish people would take this as seriously as Janow, Michalow, Marbach, and Babolna and the others mentioned do! I find myself so frustrated with society sometimes when a good horse is shown, and they pull it apart in such an appalling way. They don't care who is in ear shot, and you can see they think of themselves as "knowledgeable"!! I wouldn't mind at all if their opinions were even close to being accurate!!! Instead they criticize a horse who's top line isn't dead straight. Or a stallion who might be too cresty in his neck, or God forbid, they don't have a dishy enough head - like that really qualifies a good horse! I think more people need to look at the Standard of Excellence instead of making up their own ideal Arabian. The one I read actually doesn't mention a dish! Now I admit I do prefer a nicely dished head, but certainly not extreme. A good top line should appear when the horse is moving at the trot, not so much when they are just standing. And their tail set will appear higher, when it is elevated. All these things are not actually faults! They are the real characteristics of a real Arabian. One that is strong and capable of carrying a person over rough and challenging terrain. In the wild, nature weeds out the weaker ones - survival of the fittest so to speak - But in captivity, I'm afraid that the weaker ones in structure might actually weed out the strong ones if people aren't educated in the way Arabians are supposed to be built. They were built to be ridden! And they love it too! Lisa Lavender Park
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192
Good morning everybody
this is exactly true, horses which are notn functional will weed out those who are, as you said. this is why I am fighting so hard to prevent this, to have people learn about the "horse" etc.
Even on this forum some horses were praised with many,many posts I would not want in my backyard, because I wont have something useless.
some horses have detrimental faults, which breed on. I know some of those and automatically will search if the horse presented, has such. In many cases it does.
I have preached my heart out to have the halter class stallions at the EE also be shown in performance, so that we all can see what is what. And this has nothing to to with free speech, democracy, etc.etc. but common sense. this will not happen because many will never make it, breaking down already while in training at home. But at least we all would have an answer, right!
Joined: 28-December 03
Member No.: 1086
Glad you brought this up
The single most important factor in my being particular (and critical) about those horses shown and being pinned at halter is it is a BREEDING CLASS supposedly pinning the best horses of our breed as the ambassadors for our breed to the rest of the equine world for these are the horses that are promoted heavily in the magazines, at open houses, expos, etc. This does not mean that some horses pinned are not deserving. But in contrast, too many equine lovers of other breeds believe arabians are nothing but faulty, crazy, dangerous horses that cannot function under saddle and won't consider one for their farm. It seems these modern day halter classes have taken our ship sorely off-course! Often, showmanship, the frozen pose and the who's who of the muckity mucks appears to be entirely more important in some instances rather than pinning THE BEST horse. It is, IMO, irresponsible to our beloved arabian, at best, and destructive to the future of our breed on the whole.
Yesterday while browsing the classifieds, I noted THREE farms with arabians for sale with a statement "eliminating arabians from our farm" or something similar. These breeders are not leaving horses - just arabians!
Now I would love to see some of our famous halter handlers get up on the back of that horse and show us what they can do - ride that horse the best way they know how without any gimmicks. I would give a standing ovation to the handler that does that!
I sure hope someone "important" smells the coffee and is willing/able to get our ship back on course!
Joined: 14-September 06
From: Northern Minnesota
Member No.: 3964
Good Morning Hansi, to answer your questions I would be here all day and my coffee brew-en and hubby stirring. I might have to continue this later over the weekend. I like to see Arabians stood up without the stretch and I look for 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 in equal parts. I like the middle 1/3 the best, can the back hold a saddle and rider. I like a nice short back, deep girth, laid back shoulder to the point so the neck comes out nicely. Not laid back so far as to look like a Saddle Bred or to low where the neck comes out of the chest. Level croup and tail comes off the croup and set high. I am a big tail fan, I have seen many BIG winners come into the ring with tail flagging and they look like the tail is coming out of their butts, big turn off for me. I like a nice neck but the long, long, neck, long neck long back. I stop one of my Arabian magazines because it was starting to look like a Saddle Bred magazine. Now the legs and hooves should match the horse, I like big hooves and so does my farrier. My farrier and his wife have horses and were miss guided about Arabians, he has been our farrier now for over two years and says he enjoys my horses over his own. He has brought his wife with the last couple of trimmings and she was up set when she found out we had sold one of our geldings that she liked. Now movement should not be stiff or park action, again when watching, will this horse feel good under saddle, free movement should be a good ride. I am one picky SOB when it comes to buying and breeding I want it all. Shada A S said when I was looking to buy a stallion years ago that i was looking for the prefect Arab and I know there are no prefect Arab but I came close. Now for the halter classes I have to say after all these years I thought in my little mind that things where going to change. I have been laid up with health issues for four years and was not out at the shows but what I read in the magazines I thought the dripping grease, sanding off half the hooves, balding around the eye, and gingering with a tooth brush was over. But my first show in almost 5 year was the EE in 2007 and it is anything goes for a win. My daughter and I left the show early on Saturday because of what we saw. This will have to be continued later, hubby's up and the gritters are calling. Kat Marzouk Arabians
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192
Dear Kat and all
I think the problem is that too few people have the courage to speak up and/or protest. they get on the wandwaggons, and that is so wrong.
Each structure/conformation of a horse poins to something it can easily do. I am a stickler for the rearend, that's were the motor sits, like in the Volkswagon. But that is exactly what is nowadays lacking so badly in the highest percentage of the halter horses. Its awful.I have seen gaskins so small in adult horses, they are equal to my 10months olds. I am truly not kidding. I have seen hocks so flimpsy I fear they breack down quickly.
We need to learn what structual points are needed for whatever diszipline. Can you just see a cutting horse with flimpsy hocks?
Most of all our people have to come down to reality, realizing that a halter class is a breeding class and not a model class, for which there are rules.That our people are not afraid to have pointed out the good and the bad of their horses, that they realize that because they have a full sibling, or a related horse to theirs, does not make them better or worse. Each horse should stands on its own and the clue comes," please believe me", when under saddle. there is no substitute for recognizing what it has or not. this is why at least the stallions should be tested. Its done in most all other breeds, why do we think our horses are different as a "horse"? If we do, than this is ignorance combinend with arrogance I feel.
Not only this, once an owner knows what he/she really has, such can plan, train,school for it, with it. It would avoid breeding from a horse which constistently breeds on the bad. And this head breeding business simply has to be tuned down or stopped. therefore, each one of us should try to do their part, not be insulted, get angry or hateful when things are pointed out, but learn from it. We say the car is a "Lemon" well we got that in horses too, no matter how beautiful either is.
I watched last night some of the three-day event US Olympic team. there were two horses which they had to discard, although they were for some part excellent. the only thing lacking was their dressage performance, which made them lose a lot. They do need a teacher who can teach them well, otherwise they will not get very far. If the horse can not execute dressage movements well, it cant perform that well in cross country, stadium jumping, even racing, either. Its going on nervous energy.
Joined: 26-June 06
From: Ohio, USA
Member No.: 3603
The thing I really have to appreciate about state studs is that they provide measurements. I would love to see that become the norm. No more asking how tall this or that horse is. No more wondering at the optical illusion that photos can sometimes be. You'd have a distinct thirds body measurement. Possibly the leg segments and the angles.
It sure would eliminate a lot of guess work and 'opinions'
The facts would just be sitting there staring you in the face.
I also really liked the idea of developing performance testing as a criteria or at least an accolade for breeding. Nothing overly expensive and something you could do locally but that would show that your horse has passed. For those who don't have near perfect conformation but are still athletic and manage to excel.
I honestly don't think that a majority of people know what all they are looking at when they look at some of the less blaring or more complex functional problems when looking at the horse. That's why I so much enjoy when someone takes a picture that isn't famous, removes the head portion and goes over the body and legs in detail to show 'what is good' versus 'what is a fault' and why.
When a horse gets 16 points for legs, and should have far worse, that is terrible indeed.
But when only a handful of people recognize that fact out of a whole audience, that's just a tragedy.
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192
Kathy the problem I think is, that those who dont ride, nedver been on a horse simply dont understand what certain faults can do. Some are slight, and wont hurt much if you know how to protect it through proper riding, others are so detrimental that it can mean the life of the rider and the horse.
I have sat at the EE numerous times with some old timer judges, folks which rode, know horses inside out and just gasped at some ribbon pinnings etc. Gasped even more when they looked at some of these entries. Once someone next to me said "O what a georgous horse, wish it be mine, I guess will cost a fortune". I replied, not me, dont want it. Reply" why not"? Reply: I dont like eating horseflesh. Reply, but it belongs to soandso. My reply: So what!!
It always and ever boils down to ignorance and brain washing of some high flying promoters. Unfortunately the majority showing is.that ignorant and gets mad when you tell them your opinion.
When people than eventtually ride, and the horse is forever lame, or colicie, then they start asking why. By that time its too late, they are in love with their darling horse, and then the veterinarian bills start rolling in.Then they decide to buy a second horse and similar problems start. Now they have to lame ducks in the barn, and what to do now?
It is wise to take a horseman/woman along, someone who has experienced many things,and will advise. But will they listen? Fat chance, no. Its that pretty head, and the horse is so sweet,and it is related to soandso who is a champion and on and on.thats when the expert turns around and says "go ahead, do what you want"!
You are right. I agree with all that you have said in your post.
I don't know that there is anything you can do... Just share your opinions and thats all.
I am grateful for the good people who have mentored me. I listen to the criticisms and accolades of all.
From Matt Bergren I have learned that it doesn't have to be SE to be the best. All my friends have helped me to understand that a good horse is a good horse. Liz Salmon, Michael Byatt and many others have also rubbed off on me alot in impacting my thinking.
Marilyn Lang is also a tough critic and I've learned alot from her. Whenever I think of breeding to a horse or buying on - I always run that photo or horses by her and by Judy Guess to get their opinions.
In the SE world - I have learned and listened to Marion Richmond's opinions and have learned alot from her and also from Kehilan arabians...
Candi Weeks had often been a tough critic and sometimes its hard to take that type of honesty - but a true friend is an honest friend. And one shouldn't need sugar coating to hear the truth.
Clare Morrow and Larry Westmoreland have impressed me with the types of horses they choose for performance horses and that has also impacted my thoughts of horses. Most recently I have met Carol Steppe who's horses are beautiful and able to achieve great things in performance....
The one thing that all my friend's have in common is that most are highly opinionated and are willing to share their views honestly and bluntly with me. They may all have different views and can have totally different horses - but all have helped to shape me.
When its all said and done - my ideal arabian is a collage of my own history and views and the information I have received from my friends. I thank them for their honestly. I think being a breeder is much like being a musician - you take the best from all those you respect and admire, and then you put your own self and views into the mix and that is what makes your opinions and views on horses...
I guess what I'd say is to be vocal as you have and some people will appreciate your views and others may not - but one day you will see a little piece of your own program in someone else's program - and you will know that you have made a difference to them.
Joined: 23-November 07
From: Warwick QLD Australia
Member No.: 9660
I'm posting a photo of our stallion in the hope of some constructive criticism for those who would like some different views/opinions, but above all, some free education. The light unfortunately makes the definition in his hind legs hard to make out, but everything else is quite easily seen. This horse was only ever shod as a two and a half year old, before we bought him, has only ever been lame once in his ten year long life, due to a bad shoe - again before we bought him, and is the best "working horse" we have. He loves chasing cows, barrel racing, trail riding, and has that unbelievable armchair motion. Apart from that minor lameness, he has never broken down, and has still achieved champion stallion, most classic head, and 2nd in best trot at shows. Not to mention also achieving a 2nd place a the QLD State Championships in a sporting event called flag poles. I have thick skin, and I know my horses' weaknesses and strengths so don't be too concerned about offense as I understand well he won't be everyone's cup of tea so to speak. Lisa Lavender Park
Joined: 22-September 06
Member No.: 4001
As I don't breed Arabian horses myself (yet!) I will comment on a show I went to with my partner a few years ago. It was an A Class show, and we went because it was nearby where we lived at the time.
Firstly there didn't seem to be any other "spectators", but we stayed anyhow. My partner had never seen a foal with curlers in its mane before and he almost fell over laughing and threatened me with dire consequences if I even thought about doing it to one of our foals.
Then one of the purebred halter classes started. There was this absolutely beautiful bay filly brought in, she was good shouldered, nice length of reign and a hind quarter to die for (you know me). Also she moved very straightly on her legs. But she hadn't been "dolled" up, just nicely groomed. Needless to say, she was the first one given the gate. My partner was totally disgusted. There was a partbred class that my partner said the horses looked more like purebreds than the purebreds did. Then he wanted to know about the "great bulbous heads". He has never taken me to another Arabian horse show since then and thinks my wanting to breed Arabians is a pointless idea.
We saw many nice looking horses that day, to be sure, but the ones that looked like real "using" horses were all unanimously shown the gate. Some ugly and very obvioulsy lame horses were rewarded. I can't blame my partner for his attitude - even I was pretty shocked with some of it.
Also, one Arabian judge had become the trainer of our racehorses, and since we later found out some of the dreadful things that were done to them, it has taken me a while to know whether judges are to be trusted or not. My partner will still go off about it all occassionally when our mare shows signs of fear about something that shouldn't be feared.
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192
Well Lisa judging my this photo, he looks like a real good doing horse. All I can see is some small galls upper part of the hock, cant analyze the hock due to the way he is standing and this could be a shadow.
continue to enjoy him and good luck Hansi . Serenity Arabian Farms