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> How Do I Stop My 3 Yo Gelding From Rearing
Georgia
post May 24 2008, 04:04 AM
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Arabians do not have fragile noses, I get so sick of hearing this excuse (but I don't condon abusive use of a chain...I'm sure at some point a 300 pound man, jerking with all his might could do some damage to any horse. But, in rearing and dangerous situations... sometimes drastic measures are in order.

I've seen more dangerous stallions (or geldings) in the hands of owners that feel a chain will hurt the nose. as far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter if you hurt the nose of a horse like this or not.. as a dangerous idiot isn't worth anything anyway... to me.
I was handling a stallion once for someone that was frightened by the horse.. and for good reason. I put a chain over his nose, the owner threw a fit, as this horse was next to trying to kill me.. I just handed her the lead and told her to take it off if she wanted to.
I was the one in danger and needed to do something to protect myself, since the horse was let to get into this shape. After a half hour of working with him to
lower his head and give at the poll and move his hunches over.. he started coming around.. although I had a chain over his nose.. the last hour I did not need to use it. But, it takes more than a half hour to unravel something as dangerous as this horse was. (by the way the owner did not take the lead to remove the chain).
But, I don't feel normal use of a chain will injure anything. My stallion used to be tied with a chain over the nose, but he gives to pressure and knows what to do.
As you will see out on the trail horses tied with the reins by their bits. It's all in the training and the horse.

Although I'm more apt to train the horse, and as Kelly said the problems go away... (without fighting with them). and the only time I will come unglued on a horse is when they do something dangerous to hurt me, for any reason.

I feel the problem with the gelding here is merely he does not know how to lead and really doesn't know what to do, so he rears with the pressure to go forward leading.. (he doesn't know how to lead or go forward) So if you work on the forward motion (more driving from the rear) and if you read my first post to get some starter information. I think your rearing problem will go away.

and where a helmet when working with your gelding. Take it from one that was scalped and could have been killed being struck in the head.. I learned this 26 stitches later.

Take care and be safe.

Georgia
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Cheryl L
post May 24 2008, 10:38 AM
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Excellent post Georgia.

Celeste has a 3 year old gelding. A horse that is now beginning to intimidate her. What would be next, if one does not get the rearing under control? The horse gets worse or is sold down the road. He has poor ground manners. This is why I bumped up the thread "What is required to make a show horse". The step by step instructions, not only teaches the horse, but the handler too. Teaches the horse, young or old, good ground manners. We all know that good ground manners are essential to dealing with a large or small animal.
Cheryl
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Echo1
post May 24 2008, 12:54 PM
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I cannot stress enough, how important it is for horses to have basic training, it sets the foundation for all things you ask of them and helps to keep both horse and rider safe. These problems we encounter where a 3 yr old gelding is rearing on the lead for example, are telling me we have a young horse who didn't have basic halter training, and most untrained horses, will refuse, balk, or rear.
If this is the case in a young stallion, and he gets to breeding before he is trained, you are really asking for problems. Once you set the stage, and resort to using a chain on his nose, just to lead him, or do anything with him, you've introduced the level of pressure required just to do everyday things with him.
As we know, horse shows have moved to the point where no shanking is allowed, it is considered abusive. How do you respond to this ? I see many on here who raise the roof about abuse at shows, yet are advocating to use chains at home. What about having 20 breeding stallions in one arena, and no shanking or use of a whip? What about those handlers we see in the arena at a show?
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Cheryl L
post May 24 2008, 02:16 PM
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Kelly,
The chain over the nose is just that, a training tool, so that someday down the road, no rearing, no chain.

Shanking at the horse shows is legal, for correcting an unruly horse. Lord knows, I had a stallion that you had to keep an eye on every minute. Yet, as the trainer said, when he went in for saddle training...."This horse has impeccable ground manners, the best I have ever seen". She used to work for Rookers and had ridden some of the greatest horses. My horse also turned out to be a tad bit lazy under saddle. Oh yeah, I also lunged my horse with a chain over his nose at the shows, it helped him to focus on his job and he never pulled once. Once again, the chain must be put on properly.

This horse is no where near going to a ring, we need the owner to feel safe in handling her horse.
I have retrained a particularly nasty gelding. He was 4 and would come after you from across the arena, to bite and flatten you.
You would lead him and he would try to take a chunk out of you. He was light as a feather in a halter, so no chain for him. I carried a slicker brush used for brushing dogs. When he turned to try and bite me again, I let him bite the slicker brush, with all those little tiny, pokey wires. He never bit another person again.
Cheryl
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Echo1
post May 24 2008, 02:34 PM
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Well, I don't know that it is legal, because in big bold letters on a huge sign that is posted in the warm up, it reads, "NO SHANKING". I do know, that it is used for a horse who gets into a dangerous position, and without penalty. However, the idea is to have a horse who is trained with minimal amount of devices.
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Cheryl L
post May 24 2008, 06:45 PM
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I agree with you Kelly. Shanking should be used only as a correction. Saftey of horse and handler is paramount.

As you guys know, I train my own halter horses and a few for select people. These guys are not terrified of the whip, it works great for those pesky flies and for cueing.
They trot into the ring and will set up just fine.

The "no shanking" sign must be at the EE, which the last time I showed there was in 2000. I don't see it at any of the Class A shows around here. I don't like the yank and spank crowd. I also don't mind correcting a horse. I don't care if it is a mare, gelding or a stallion.
My stallion was safe to walk around crowds of people since he was a yearling. He had to be, we took him to our local fair for education, his and the publics. He HAD to walk around strollers, balloons and all of the 4H'ers and their horses. I would take my whip with me though. There was one time that we were talking to a young lady and her mare was in heat. I kept my eye on Shamal and I seen his lip start to nuzzle out and I gave him a tap on the chest with the butt end of the whip. He dropped his head immediately and relaxed. That was all that was needed to set him straight. You had to know the chain of events. Lip starts to pucker, then came the arch and then full stallion display.

Cheryl
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mckulley1
post May 24 2008, 10:29 PM
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The same rules apply to a rearing horse as to a dog that jumps up on people/counters, etc.

You make their lives so unbearable when they are in the ACT of doing the deed that they feel like they never want to do it again...for now.

For a dog, this would mean that when they jumped up on people/counters you grab their front feet and keep them in the air. You use a stern word that you use ONLY for corrections. And you hold onto the dog until they are uncomfortable (mentally) and WANT TO sit down. Understand that the dog will scream and cry and try to nip your hands. You are not physically hurting the dog....but you have put him in a position he now does NOT want to be in - being UP off of the ground. You do not want to let go while he's carrying on, but when he relaxes and attempts to lower himself, you allow him to do so. This dog will think again the next time he goes to jump up. He will require further schoolings of this nature until he gets it 100%. But he'll get it QUICK.

The same applies to a horse. You make his life so scary when his feet leave the ground that he won't want his feet to leave the ground! I find that using a chain under the chin encourages rearing where over the nose evokes less of this response....however...I still find that the use of a chain evokes some kind of rearing response.

What I do is get myself a bag on a whip or just a bag. I carry it in my back pocket. When the horse rears I use a stern word that I use ONLY for corrections and this bag pointed towards him and at belly height. Be aware that you will not want to shake the bag in his face, you are looking to encourage him to aware of it at a lower, less seen, and thus more scary, level. The combo of my loud verbal reprimand, the bag, and a few good pops of the lead rope (with or with out a chain) soon make them too nervous to leave the ground for fear that the "evil shaky thing" may be around their under carriage. If you do not want to use a bag, a tin can full of coins will just as well do the trick.

Be careful that you stop the negative reprimand as soon as the front feet touch the ground and go immediately to the rewards of soothing words and/or treats.

Soon they will forget they even knew how to rear!
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SKM
post May 25 2008, 09:06 AM
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I am surprised nobody has mentioned the use of special 'controller halters' such as the Monty Roberts-designed one. Perhaps the owner of this gelding could see if there is a Monty Roberts-trained adviser in her area, as these halters do need careful use and you need to be shown exactly how to use it.
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KHA`LILAH
post May 25 2008, 03:14 PM
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SkM I agree, its just I cant stop humming
I hear something`sayin
Hooh! Aah! Hooh! Aah!
Well, don’t you know.

Don’t you love, Sam Cooke

There are 100s of natural horsemanship books on the shelves today, buy, rent, and borrow invest in your investment, and the value will be seen in far more way, than many may ever believe...
One rearing horse is not the same as another, rearing horses. They have a will too! be strong or follow others even if not in there own best interest. Horse and man both concede to the biological response of fight or flight, as a human you have the choice, respectfully.
Today computer have giving horse owners the opportunity of constant learning. The past may consider it holds a worldly view, but discovery shows it’s not flat.
AL has covered topics such as clicker training. SE Starting My Filly Under Saddle use the search button, and naturally you will find your way.
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Echo1
post May 25 2008, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (mckulley1 @ May 24 2008, 11:29 PM)
The same rules apply to a rearing horse as to a dog that jumps up on people/counters, etc.

You make their lives so unbearable when they are in the ACT of doing the deed that they feel like they never want to do it again...for now.

For a dog, this would mean that when they jumped up on people/counters you grab their front feet and keep them in the air. You use a stern word that you use ONLY for corrections. And you hold onto the dog until they are uncomfortable (mentally) and WANT TO sit down. Understand that the dog will scream and cry and try to nip your hands. You are not physically hurting the dog....but you have put him in a position he now does NOT want to be in - being UP off of the ground. You do not want to let go while he's carrying on, but when he relaxes and attempts to lower himself, you allow him to do so. This dog will think again the next time he goes to jump up. He will require further schoolings of this nature until he gets it 100%. But he'll get it QUICK.

The same applies to a horse. You make his life so scary when his feet leave the ground that he won't want his feet to leave the ground! I find that using a chain under the chin encourages rearing where over the nose evokes less of this response....however...I still find that the use of a chain evokes some kind of rearing response.

What I do is get myself a bag on a whip or just a bag. I carry it in my back pocket. When the horse rears I use a stern word that I use ONLY for corrections and this bag pointed towards him and at belly height. Be aware that you will not want to shake the bag in his face, you are looking to encourage him to aware of it at a lower, less seen, and thus more scary, level. The combo of my loud verbal reprimand, the bag, and a few good pops of the lead rope (with or with out a chain) soon make them too nervous to leave the ground for fear that the "evil shaky thing" may be around their under carriage. If you do not want to use a bag, a tin can full of coins will just as well do the trick.

Be careful that you stop the negative reprimand as soon as the front feet touch the ground and go immediately to the rewards of soothing words and/or treats.

Soon they will forget they even knew how to rear!
*


I don't like the idea of scare-ing a 1000 pound horse into anything. Rather I like the horse to think having a kind, friendly, reliable and trustworthy disposition is their idea and the frame of mind they choose to be in. biggrin.gif A horse who has a somewhat agressive disposition by nature, does NOT get scared........... they retaliate.

End result in trying to scare a horse into a behavior is best summed up with two words...."emergency room."

Discipline does not have to be harsh, just consistant.
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KHA`LILAH
post May 25 2008, 04:38 PM
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I agree it sounds like Carols young stallion, wanted to retaliate all over her. That’s bondage!!!
Keep goldfish
21 second later they will have forgiven you.
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mckulley1
post May 25 2008, 05:21 PM
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I've dealt with casual rearers all the way to man eaters. If you want stories, ask, but I doubt you do. I would venture to say that those suggesting "natural horsemanship" techniques and "fuzzy bunny" training suggestions have not. This horse scares it's owner. It already has the upper hand. No amount of book reading is going to give her the guts back she has lost to this point.

The same rules apply to all rearing horses IF done properly. Believe me, when you get after a horse in this manner the ONLY thing they want to do is to STOP doing what they were doing!

The only way to stop a negative behavior is to make the punishment for the negative behavior the worst thing to happen to them at that moment in time but equally to make the positive behavior the best thing they could have done all day.

If you do not give AND take equally you will not get the correct response.

If that is something you cannot do properly then you need to find a trainer.
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Echo1
post May 25 2008, 06:04 PM
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Ha !

I think the main thing you didn't factor into your way of training McKulley, is that you are dealing with Arabians who are by nature very clever horses. They will rear, get shanked and yelled at, come down, get praised, and certainly chose to rear again, based on the fact, they CAN think three steps ahead of most simplistic techniques as you describe, and will endure the yelling and shanking to get to the praise and treat. laugh.gif laugh.gif
The one thing the Arabian has going for him, is he is able to endure all this, and is very forgiving of his handler.
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Cheryl L
post May 25 2008, 08:02 PM
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QUOTE (KHA`LILAH @ May 25 2008, 12:38 PM)
I agree it sounds like Carols young stallion, wanted to retaliate all over her. That’s bondage!!!
Keep goldfish
21 second later they will have forgiven you.
*


Anyone unwilling to take the steps to correct a problem, SHOULD own goldfish and stay out of horses altogether. Whether you do it yourself or send your horse out to a trainer.


Thank God that Carol, had experienced people to consult. She and Mo should do just fine now.
Chery l
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MAXHOPEMIME
post May 25 2008, 08:03 PM
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I can tell you that I never reward a horse immediatly after a major correction.
I will ask that he or she complete an action that I know will bring the correct response and then praise.
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