Joined: 11-August 04
Member No.: 1584
Many of you know that I have been casually researching the history of the mare known mostly as *Exochorda for quite a few years. In that time I have collected a great deal of information regarding the history of the horses, people and places associated with *Exochorda, and I have written about this from time to time. There is a great deal of newly uncovered information to report on this topic, and research obtained by myself and Marilyn Lang during our recent stay in Egypt has expanded the file substantially. I am in the process of putting together a comprehensive article, booklet, book, or whatever size publication is required to present this case in a complete and thorough format in the near future. In the meantime, I wish to go on record with the following statement:
*Exochorda, known in Egypt as Leila II and/or Marquita, is absolutely and without question qualified as a Straight Egyptian. She was conceived in Egypt of Asil desert bred parents, born in Egypt in the possession of a famous breeder in association with and under the supervision of the RAS. Furthermore, she came to America from the Royal Stables of Egypt.
Substantive evidence and documents will be provided to support the above statement within the publication, and with the permission of Oliver and Alexsi, I will present an outline of these on this forum. Caryn Rogosky
Joined: 22-March 03
From: Bury St Edmunds, UK
Member No.: 202
Eagerly awaiting an update; great that we have people who carry on such research and uncover hidden facts. This forum is a mine of inforamation and if you write a book I am sure it will make fascinating reading.
Joined: 11-January 07
From: Two Mountain Ranch, Nampa, Idaho USA
Member No.: 4862
Following is a quote from the El Zahraa thread:
"Ray, a while back I recall reading a post of yours which referred to people drinking the Koolaid? Interesting, though, that you brought the new information regarding *Exochorda into this topic -- as there was no sensible reason for Hansi to inject that revolting commentary into what was intended to be a positive and educational thread. I do believe you are on to something.
I need NO ONE on my side to present evidence on *Exochorda; the fact of the matter is that truth will eventually overpower lies in any case, and only those heavily invested in keeping it from being told have cause to feel threatened by it. For you to defend what Hansi has done here Ray, for you think it is appropriate that you reprimand ME for rejecting an act which is so clearly indefensible is an indication to me that you and I have absolutely no basis for any further conversation -- of any sort. Drink up. Caryn Rogosky"
First, let me remind you that this is a public forum. The basis for conversation between any of us participants is the Arabian Horse, and specifically the SE. Spiteful, sarcastic, vindictive, abusive and disrespectful treatment of others on the forum is uncalled for and should not be a part of your repertoire.
Are you a "casual" researcher? Or are you a "serious" researcher? Throughout history, philosophers, scientists and mathematicians have put forth their postulations. These postulations were accompanied by lengthy and detailed explanations, many pages of mathematical computations and all manner of evidence they could bring to bear on the subject of their interest. Many of the great ones were ridiculed by the community they sought to convince. The professional communities were, and still are, often divided into "camps". Those who agree and those who disagree and those who are not sure and want more information.
What I personally think about the matter of Exochorda does not matter in the least. My opinion of people involved has no bearing. Attacking the "doubting Thomas" in the crowd does nothing to validate anything you put forth for public consideration. You have announced that you have new information on an ancestor whose SE label has been questioned. Publish it! But you must realize that it will come under close examination and is very likely to meet with some criticism. This is just how these things work. There should be nothing personal involved.
There are countless numbers of people who, in the course of life, have compromised their values and tarnished a lifetime of service and devotion. Do you remember a man named Bill Clinton? This is only an example to illustrate that keeping an open mind is of the utmost importance to a researcher. Do your homework and do ALL of it. Anything less than impeccable will not be accepted. This is assuming, of course, that you are serious about the issue.
Joined: 11-August 04
Member No.: 1584
Thank you very much Ladies. The circumstances of Egypt during the first part of the 20th Century are fascinating and very complex. The country itself was in an almost perpetual state of flux and change, and this is reflected in the circumstances surrounding the horses of that time as well. My greatest concern is to get the newly acquired information out to the community as quickly as possible, and while there is a great deal of cross-checking going on at this time to insure the accuracy of each detail, it is wrapping up nicely. I greatly appreciate your support and encouragement, it means a great deal. Best, Caryn
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192
Nothing and nobody can be 100 bad except the last 7 years of our economy here and its leadership. I rather take those 8 years before that any time.
But one thing always comes to mind, once a reputation is tarnished or soiled, its tarnished forever. We say in German" Wer einmal luegt dem glaubt man nicht, wenn er auch die Wahrheit spricht". this is why it is so important to remind of tarnished reputations to prevent others to get hurt. We all know that a Leopard cant change its spots. However, it is wise to analyze what ruined a reputation, was it murder, theft,lies, fraud, misrepresentation, inventions and than judge the severity.
Joined: 22-September 06
Member No.: 4001
This information on this mare should be of interest to Australia breeders. Exochorda was in the pedigree of AK Sirhalima. Sirhalima lived in Australia for many years and sired a good many foals while he was here, so they too have this mare. He was always classified as a Straight Egyptian here, and I doubt that would ever change. He had a large base of fans and admirers - stil does. So any clarification of this matter would have to be welcome to us.
By the level of emotion this horse stirs every time her name is mentioned, settling it once and for all can only be a good thing. Good luck Caryn and Marilyn. cheers Karen
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192
I never could understand the emotion and commotion going on with this subject. Why is a "Label" that important when the horse is an "Asil" horse? Should this not satisfy the Asil breeders? When I imported our Straight egyptians there was NO SUCH LABEL, neither at the times of Babson, etc. The Syrian , Bahrainies and other DB countrie's Asil horses also stand on their own and dont need a "Label" to be given credit for whatever. In many cases I found them superior to some "Label" horses.
But I understand one thing, if a horse is sold for fortunes because of a "Label" and such label is fraud, mispresentation or whatever, then it does become a problem and some folks will go to any lenghth to justify an evil act and or prevent legal actions, serving their own motives, when sometimes such people proved that they cant be trusted.
Joined: 18-March 03
From: Vale View, Toowoomba, Australia
Member No.: 117
QUOTE (Mr Prospector @ Jul 14 2008, 08:47 PM)
This information on this mare should be of interest to Australia breeders. Exochorda was in the pedigree of AK Sirhalima. Sirhalima lived in Australia for many years and sired a good many foals while he was here, so they too have this mare. He was always classified as a Straight Egyptian here, and I doubt that would ever change. He had a large base of fans and admirers - stil does. So any clarification of this matter would have to be welcome to us. By the level of emotion this horse stirs every time her name is mentioned, settling it once and for all can only be a good thing. Good luck Caryn and Marilyn. cheers Karen
To my knowledge and experience, Hansi is the only person to publically repudiate Exochorda's authenticity. Thereby questioning the governances of the controlling bodies.
Since knowing Caryn (via the internet), she has worked tirelessly to substantiate beyond reproach Exochorda's pedigree (as if it needed to be).
Hansi, on the other hand, has on many occasion chosen to continue her dispute on this matter when ever Exochorda's name is mentioned.
It is sad to see two very keen historians of the Breed continue the bitterness of this feud.
With AK Sirhalima in my program's related sE and asil sE pedigrees - I, personally, do not have, nor did I ever have, any doubts whatsoever about Exochorda's legitimised labels.
Caryn's persistence to exonerate this mare is a credit to her. I don't think any other Arabian will have had to have gone through such a journey. And I sincerely hope that no other has to, particularly after acceptance by the governances of said labels!
Those interested, some information on Exochorda, previously established by Caryn can be found here.
Joined: 16-April 03
Member No.: 325
One and the same...and If Dr. Marei isn't worried, why should anyone be? The lovely part is that as Diane has pointed out Caryn has been tireless in her research to exonerate the mare which is to her (near saintly) credit.
Well said. Thank you, too, for posting that most interesting cite.