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> Statement Regarding *exochorda, For The Record...
Kimberli Nelson
post Aug 7 2008, 09:40 PM
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I think it would be a good idea to keep a lot of these things "IN"the closet.

There is a lot of mud out there and some people know some things and others know other things....
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Nadj al Nur
post Aug 7 2008, 10:05 PM
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No, Hansi..........none of my friends in the west told me that. It makes me wonder why people even breed horses if they can be so twisted to even think about destroyng lives that they brought into the world, especially if they are healthy and there is nothing wrong with them.
Cathy
Ps I heard that too, and likely from the same source.
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2mntn
post Aug 7 2008, 10:14 PM
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Dear Cathy,

You and I as well as generations to follow have been spared the gory details. We have been insulated from some of the baser facts of life.

Back in the "day", horses were livestock, nothing more, nothing less. They were routinely shot.

I must admit I was shocked to learn that Wlfred Blunt began to shoot the horses at Crabbet Stud...

All of this is distressing news.

Ray sad.gif
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MHuprich
post Aug 7 2008, 10:17 PM
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could topics not related to *Exochorda be moved to new topics?
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Nadj al Nur
post Aug 7 2008, 10:21 PM
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It certainly is distressing news. I grew up in a farming community, and I am no stranger to the death of animals. There is however a difference between shooting livestock for a PURPOSE, ie for food or to spare an old or ill animal some suffering. To shoot healthy horses because of what, A WHIM???? or a temper tantrum??? or something equally as base is plain and simple ugliness.
As far as Wilfred Blunt is concerned.....have you read his journals??? He was a strange duck too.............
Cathy
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JoeFerriss
post Aug 7 2008, 10:35 PM
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Richard did use Bel Gordas in 1967 breeding him to *Bint El Bataa, producing Naszala the following year. In 1976 when we first visited Richard Pritzlaff, he told us about using Bel Gordas. He indicated that he liked him but wanted Sirecho instead to get closer to Nasr. By then Naszala was on lease to the Grows in Washington. He insisted that we stay for days and we got into a long an interesting discussion regarding early Egyptian horses and the Travelers Rest farm. He had correspondence from J.M. Dickinson to W.R. Brown and also to Wayne VanVleet which he read to us. The correspondence was an evaluation of some of the W.R. Brown Egyptian imports that Dickinson was breeding from, noting how great a sire Nasr was. It was an interesting time and an enjoyable visit. Richard had no bad words to say about Bel Gordas or Exochorda to us in 1976. He was not angry about anything that we could see at the time. He was sharing his knowledge with us about his breeding program. Perhaps he felt it smart protocol to share his knowledge and not get into matters he felt private at that time. Perhaps he understood also that our interest was in horses and breeding, not people, or organizations. Some years later on another visit he had a Bel Gordas granddaughter, Bint Naszala I believe, at his farm which I believe he could not get in foal. I think I have some movies of her that I took on one of our visits. My point in bringing Richard up in the first place is that it was about his consideration of using Sirecho blood in his program. Our discussions centered on breeding, not organizations and from that I learned the most from him.
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Tous crins
post Aug 7 2008, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE (JoeFerriss @ Aug 7 2008, 03:35 PM)
Richard did use Bel Gordas in 1967 breeding him to *Bint El Bataa, producing Naszala the following year. In 1976 when we first visited Richard Pritzlaff, he told us about using Bel Gordas. He indicated that he liked him but wanted Sirecho instead to get closer to Nasr. By then Naszala was on lease to the Grows in Washington. He insisted that we stay for days and we got into a long an interesting discussion regarding early Egyptian horses and the Travelers Rest farm. He had correspondence from J.M. Dickinson to W.R. Brown and also to Wayne VanVleet which he read to us. The correspondence was an evaluation of some of the W.R. Brown Egyptian imports that Dickinson was breeding from, noting how great a sire Nasr was. It was an interesting time and an enjoyable visit. Richard had no bad words to say about Bel Gordas or Exochorda to us in 1976. He was not angry about anything that we could see at the time. He was sharing his knowledge with us about his breeding program. Perhaps he felt it smart protocol to share his knowledge and not get into matters he felt private at that time. Perhaps he understood also that our interest was in horses and breeding, not people, or organizations. Some years later on another visit he had a Bel Gordas granddaughter, Bint Naszala I believe, at his farm which I believe he could not get in foal. I think I have some movies of her that I took on one of our visits. My point in bringing Richard up in the first place is that it was about his consideration of using Sirecho blood in his program.  Our discussions centered on breeding, not organizations and from that I learned the most from him..
*



Hi Joe,

That is what I have enjoyed visiting farms too. The bitterness towards people and organization does nothing to encourage "newbies".

Christine
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flying hooves
post Aug 8 2008, 01:51 AM
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I don't believe hiding things in the closet about people who are "worshiped" in the Arabian horse world helps anyone.

Everyone talks about how passionate Ms Ott was about her horses, if true, this information sheds new light on that doesn't it?

Lisa
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1rider
post Aug 8 2008, 04:30 AM
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It might be that this passion cause people to do strange things. have also heard of people gelding good stallions to keep the price of the offspring high, didnt understand that. thats what they told me.
JoeF back to the purity thing so if the horse had spots and those spots came through for 15 generations then would it still fit that acceptents as back to pure. Ken
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JoeFerriss
post Aug 8 2008, 01:26 PM
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HI Ken,
Spots can be found in all lines of Arabians. I don't know that it is a measure of the horses blood purity by livestock standards. The comment I made about "purebred" in general is applied to all breeds as I understand it and would be in variance with more specific criteria that particular Bedouin tribes would apply where the term Asil is used. Of course there are many interpretations of asil as well, but I like the general definition that Al Khamsa uses for "reasonably assumed" lineages.

As for spots and unusual colors, google or go to a library and look for the great books written by Carol Mulder, under the general title "Imported Foundation stock of Arabian Horses of North America". She has an interesting feature on color and markings.

I will be gone the rest of this beautiful day and I encourage others to enjoy it as well...
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Nadj al Nur
post Aug 8 2008, 04:08 PM
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Actually, Ken, you can still get those books of Carol Mulder's for about 40 dollars each. There are three in the set and they are a VERY good investment.
Cathy
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Tous crins
post Aug 8 2008, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (1rider @ Aug 7 2008, 09:30 PM)
It might  be that this passion cause people to do strange things. have also heard of people gelding good stallions to keep the price of the offspring high, didnt understand that. thats what they told me.
JoeF back to the purity thing so if the horse had spots  and those spots came through for 15 generations then would it still fit that acceptents as back to pure.  Ken
*


Ken,

If you mean belly spots, it is in the Davenports too - "the purest of the purest".
I remember looking at the markings on Datasource of a gorgeous grey mare, I think she was in MD, and there was a huge body spot. It goes with high whites and white on the lower lips - sabino gene I think.

Nothing wrong with it.

Christine
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2mntn
post Aug 8 2008, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (flying hooves @ Aug 8 2008, 02:51 AM)
I don't believe hiding things in the closet about people who are "worshiped" in the Arabian horse world helps anyone.

Everyone talks about how passionate Ms Ott was about her horses, if true, this information sheds new light on that doesn't it?

Lisa
*


Lisa,

I wouldn’t call it shedding new light. It would be more of an insight for helping us to gain a better understanding, or perspective, on just how “passionate” some people can be!

As near as I can tell, Hansi has always been an advocate for putting the horse first in any program - form to function. She has always cautioned people to be skeptical about “labels”. However, if you insist upon being involved with a label, be very sure you understand what that label means. You should examine and understand your own motives for involvement and ask yourself if the label makes sense to you as it relates to the horses. How much importance you will ascribe to the label as it relates to your reason for having certain horses? Will they suddenly seem worthless to you, should that label “evaporate”?

I hope that a few others have gained an understanding and/or an appreciation for where Hansi is coming from - on this and other subjects. She is so agressive in her remarks because she does not want to see people get themselves so deeply wrapped-up in a “label game” that they go “off the deep end” if something about that label should change. New facts could surface at any time which would cause the “all important label” to be meaningless. It is far more important for people to understand, and believe, that it is their HORSE who should always come first. The labels they carry may not be worth much more than the paper they’re written on.

We know that there are many ancestors in our pedigrees whose backgrounds are sketchy. This is another very good reason to be careful that you do not place all your faith and your entire “reason for being” in these labels. Special clubs, recognitions, events, socializing with your friends and all the “romance language” are really just “add-ons” and not much more than “extra baggage”, when you think about it long enough.

Ray
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Dieter
post Aug 26 2008, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Aug 8 2008, 12:53 PM)
Lisa,(snipped) I hope that a few others have gained an understanding and/or an appreciation for where Hansi is coming from - on this and other subjects.  She is so agressive in her remarks because she does not want to see people get themselves so deeply wrapped-up in a “label game” that they go “off the deep end” if something about that label should change.  New facts could surface at any time which would cause the “all important label” to be meaningless.  It is far more important for people to understand, and believe, that it is their HORSE who should always come first.  The labels they carry may not be worth much more than the paper they’re written on. (snipped)

Ray
*

Hi Ray,

Do you remember the little uproar that followed the decision of the Pyramid Society to eliminate the show eligibility of the egyptian-related horses at the Event (and went to straight Egyptian or Egyptian SIRED only)? ohmy.gif I can't help but wonder what happened to those breeders who had been confidently breeding Egyptian-related arabians for years, carved out a piece of the market and then had the proverbial 'rug' pulled out from under them (hopefully they were breeding excellent horses over anything else!). TPS defines what is eligible to show at the EE and it is not a "democracy" so to speak, but . . . I wonder if that impacted membership numbers or breeders to any significant degree?

Anyway, I wanted to say this weeks ago to reiterate and demonstrate that labels can and do change, but got lost in a sea of threads.

Liz
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kay cochran
post Aug 26 2008, 06:54 PM
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ATTENTION!!!!! Please Read BRED FOR PERFECTION, Shorthorn Cattle, Collies. and Arabian Horses Since 1800 And pay special attention to Chapter 5, A World Market for Arabians Takes Shape Chapter 6 The Arabian Horse Registry of America. Written by Margaret E. Derry I promise you it will be interesting. K
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