This site requires the Adobe Flash Player.
straightegyptians

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

18 Pages V  « < 15 16 17 18 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Statement Regarding *exochorda, For The Record...
kay cochran
post Aug 26 2008, 06:59 PM
Post #241


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1953
Joined: 13-January 08
From: Schulenburg, Texas
Member No.: 10644



Liz, It's not just a label, it's called politics. K
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2mntn
post Aug 26 2008, 07:33 PM
Post #242


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 3789
Joined: 11-January 07
From: Two Mountain Ranch, Nampa, Idaho USA
Member No.: 4862



QUOTE (Dieter @ Aug 26 2008, 05:47 PM)
Hi Ray,

Do you remember the little uproar that followed the decision of the Pyramid Society to eliminate the show eligibility of the egyptian-related horses at the Event (and went to straight Egyptian or Egyptian SIRED only)?  ohmy.gif  I can't help but wonder what happened to those breeders who had been confidently breeding Egyptian-related arabians for years, carved out a piece of the market and then had the proverbial 'rug' pulled out from under them (hopefully they were breeding excellent horses over anything else!).  TPS defines what is eligible to show at the EE and it is not a "democracy" so to speak, but . . . I wonder if that impacted membership numbers or breeders to any significant degree?

Anyway, I wanted to say this weeks ago to reiterate and demonstrate that labels can and do change, but got lost in a sea of threads.

Liz
*



Hi Liz,

Well, I remember being disappointed at that rules change, as I had just bred an SE mare to a Spanish stallion. No more "label" (Egyptian-bred, or related) for me. sad.gif
I didn't have any market carved out to worry about, but I would loved to have shown this feller as ER. At 2 years old, Shai Mandate (Mandato x Shir Ha Leila).


Attached Image


Anyway - I understand the Egyptian-sired philosophy - in the way that Hansi describes it, as the "top bred" horse. The "best top breeding" being to an SE stallion, of course. wink.gif The rules change did not change my thinking as much as Hansi's opinion on "top breeding". I won't use anything on an SE mare but an SE stallion. Unless I want a specific cross, or "straight" breeding, I won't use anything but an SE stallion on any other mare, either. Which is understandable, given the stud lineup I've got here. If I had to go outside for a stallion, my "rules" might change. laugh.gif

Ray
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
morabene
post Aug 26 2008, 07:45 PM
Post #243


Senior Member
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 264
Joined: 8-July 05
From: Hempstead, Texas
Member No.: 2579



QUOTE (kay cochran @ Aug 26 2008, 07:54 PM)
ATTENTION!!!!!    Please Read    BRED FOR PERFECTION, Shorthorn Cattle, Collies. and Arabian Horses Since 1800        And pay special attention to Chapter 5, A World Market for Arabians Takes Shape    Chapter 6  The Arabian Horse Registry of America.    Written by Margaret E. Derry    I promise you it will be interesting.    K
*


This is a fascinating, skinny little book. Well worth the time to read it.

Martha
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kay cochran
post Aug 26 2008, 09:27 PM
Post #244


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1953
Joined: 13-January 08
From: Schulenburg, Texas
Member No.: 10644



Martha, Thank you! K
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dieter
post Aug 27 2008, 01:43 AM
Post #245


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1881
Joined: 28-December 03
Member No.: 1086



QUOTE (2mntn @ Aug 26 2008, 03:33 PM)
Hi Liz,

Well, I remember being disappointed at that rules change, as I had just bred an SE mare to a Spanish stallion.  No more "label" (Egyptian-bred, or related) for me.  sad.gif   I didn't have any market carved out to worry about, but I would loved to have shown this feller as ER.  At 2 years old, Shai Mandate (Mandato x Shir Ha Leila).

Attached Image

Anyway - I understand the Egyptian-sired philosophy - in the way that Hansi describes it, as the "top bred" horse.  The "best top breeding" being to an SE stallion, of course.  wink.gif  The rules change did not change my thinking as much as Hansi's opinion on "top breeding".  I won't use anything on an SE mare but an SE stallion.  Unless I want a specific cross, or "straight" breeding, I won't use anything but an SE stallion on any other mare, either.  Which is understandable, given the stud lineup I've got here.  If I had to go outside for a stallion, my "rules" might change.  laugh.gif

Ray
*

Hi Ray,

There were quite a few people "shocked" when that change went into effect. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I understand it, the colt that is sired by an SE out of a non-SE mare has no future as a stallion as it relates to showing his foals at the Event as his foals are not eligible regardless if his dam is SE. Interestingly enough and in the past, only stallions and mares sired by SE's (out of non-SE mares) were considered Egyptian-related and eligible to show at the Event. Foals out of an SE mare, but sired by an Egyptian-related or non-SE stallion (such as Mandato - though Mandate is looking spectacular!) were not eligible - regardless of how good these horses were or how well these crosses worked. That turned quite a few friends off from TPS who had bred their SE mares to an Egyptian-related stallion and then learned they could not participate at the show. Luckily, they were all able to show in AHA sanctioned and open events winning many championships because they had bred some really great horses. But I have to say, quite a few of those went on to purchase non-SE horses for a whole new direction in their breeding program - I understand that..

I agree with the premise of "top breeding" and have seen it in practice often enough with partbreds to say it has validity - amongst so many other variables. For quite a few years I was a proponent of the partbred with the stallion being arabian and the mare the breed of choice. The foal was often such an improvement over the non-arabian's personality, yet retained much the structural phenotype with a prettier head, it seemed the best of both worlds. I have to admit, having a choice is tempting. When I'm down to my last stallion and zero mares, I hope to buy a Percheron or Belgium mare and breed it to my SE stallion. Imagine that! tongue.gif Will need a new saddle at the very least or perhaps a buggy biggrin.gif biggrin.gif ! (edited to add) You see - I am addicted to horses!!
Liz
PS yes, with your stud line-up, you'll never need to go OUT!! biggrin.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dieter
post Aug 27 2008, 02:44 AM
Post #246


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1881
Joined: 28-December 03
Member No.: 1086



QUOTE (kay cochran @ Aug 26 2008, 02:54 PM)
ATTENTION!!!!!    Please Read    BRED FOR PERFECTION, Shorthorn Cattle, Collies. and Arabian Horses Since 1800        And pay special attention to Chapter 5, A World Market for Arabians Takes Shape    Chapter 6  The Arabian Horse Registry of America.    Written by Margaret E. Derry    I promise you it will be interesting.    K
*

Hey Kay!! Thanks for that resource tool - I'll be looking to buy it tomorrow - hopefully on EBAY biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Liz
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kay cochran
post Aug 27 2008, 02:26 PM
Post #247


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1953
Joined: 13-January 08
From: Schulenburg, Texas
Member No.: 10644



Liz, that cross has been done, only with Clydesdales. It was done by a trainer in the Houston area so long ago I don't remember what her name was, maybe some one can. She raised two colts by her Arabian stallion, their names were Bud and Weiser. LOL!!!!!! K
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phanilah
post Aug 27 2008, 04:27 PM
Post #248


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1046
Joined: 22-March 03
Member No.: 201



QUOTE (2mntn @ Aug 26 2008, 08:33 PM)
Well, I remember being disappointed at that rules change, as I had just bred an SE mare to a Spanish stallion.  No more "label" (Egyptian-bred, or related) for me.  sad.gif
I didn't have any market carved out to worry about, but I would loved to have shown this feller as ER.  At 2 years old, Shai Mandate (Mandato x Shir Ha Leila).


This horse still wouldn't have been considered Egyptian related/bred.

***************
Foals prior to 2005:
An Egyptian-Bred (also known as Egyptian Related) horse, as defined by The Pyramid Society, is: -a- one who was produced either by breeding a Straight Egyptian stallion to a purebred Arabian mare who is not Straight Egyptian OR -b- one whose grandsires are both Straight Egyptian, and whose dam is a purebred Arabian who is not Straight Egyptian.

Only horses of certifiable ancestry are eligible for classification as Straight Egyptian or Egyptian-bred as defined by The Pyramid Society, and therefore are also eligible for Society-managed programs.

Foals of 2005 and Beyond:
An Egyptian Sired (previously known as Egyptian-Bred/Related) horse, as defined by The Pyramid Society, is a purebred Arabian who is produced by breeding a Straight Egyptian stallion to a purebred Arabian mare who is not Straight Egyptian, beginning with registrations of 2005. All existing horses presently meeting the definition of Egyptian Bred/Related will be grandfathered in through the remainder of their lifetime.

Only horses of certifiable ancestry are eligible for classification as Straight Egyptian or Egyptian Sired, as defined by The Pyramid Society, and therefore eligible for Society managed and promoted programs.
*********************

FWIW - the original purpose of adding the Egyptian bred/related category was to promote the use of SE stallions for outcrossing onto non-SE mares...it was never the intent to encourage SE mares to be bred to non-SE stallions.

All the change did was take the "option B" out from the original category - which had originally allowed for 2 grandsires to be SE, not just the sire....the mares continue to have to be purebred, but non-SE.

Beth
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dieter
post Aug 27 2008, 05:01 PM
Post #249


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1881
Joined: 28-December 03
Member No.: 1086



QUOTE (phanilah @ Aug 27 2008, 12:27 PM)
This horse still wouldn't have been considered Egyptian related/bred.

***************
Foals prior to 2005:
An Egyptian-Bred (also known as Egyptian Related) horse, as defined by The Pyramid Society, is: -a- one who was produced either by breeding a Straight Egyptian stallion to a purebred Arabian mare who is not Straight Egyptian OR -b- one whose grandsires are both Straight Egyptian, and whose dam is a purebred Arabian who is not Straight Egyptian

Only horses of certifiable ancestry are eligible for classification as Straight Egyptian or Egyptian-bred as defined by The Pyramid Society, and therefore are also eligible for Society-managed programs. 

Foals of 2005 and Beyond:
An Egyptian Sired (previously known as Egyptian-Bred/Related) horse, as defined by The Pyramid Society, is a purebred Arabian who is produced by breeding a Straight Egyptian stallion to a purebred Arabian mare who is not Straight Egyptian, beginning with registrations of 2005. All existing horses presently meeting the definition of Egyptian Bred/Related will be grandfathered in through the remainder of their lifetime.

Only horses of certifiable ancestry are eligible for classification as Straight Egyptian or Egyptian Sired, as defined by The Pyramid Society, and therefore eligible for Society managed and promoted programs.
*********************

FWIW - the original purpose of adding the Egyptian bred/related category was to promote the use of SE stallions for outcrossing onto non-SE mares...it was never the intent to encourage SE mares to be bred to non-SE stallions.

All the change did was take the "option B" out from the original category - which had originally allowed for 2 grandsires to be SE, not just the sire....the mares continue to have to be purebred, but non-SE.

Beth
*

Hi Beth,

Thanks for posting "the rules" - I thought I had described them well in my post biggrin.gif (did you read it?). I also advised Ray that Shai Mandate would not have been eligible, though perhaps stated this more "delicately".

I disagree with your last paragraph "all the change did was take the "option B" out from the original category" because, as I said in my post:
QUOTE
. . . the colt that is sired by an SE out of a non-SE mare has no future as a stallion as it relates to showing his foals at the Event as his foals are not eligible . . .

Whereas, in the past, the foal of an Egyptian Related stallion, bred to an Egyptian Related mare was eligible. Edited to add: Thereby making that Egyptian Sired Colt inherently less valuable as a sire as his foal CANNOT be shown at the EE. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Liz

This post has been edited by Dieter: Aug 27 2008, 05:35 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phanilah
post Aug 27 2008, 05:07 PM
Post #250


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1046
Joined: 22-March 03
Member No.: 201



QUOTE
Whereas, in the past, the foal of an Egyptian Related stallion, bred to an Egyptian Related mare was eligible. Please correct me if I am wrong.


Yes, because that foal would have had 2 grandsires who were SE -option B-...that is what has been removed. So now, the sire must be SE, there is no longer the ability to qualify by having 2 SE grandsires.

Beth
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2mntn
post Aug 27 2008, 05:24 PM
Post #251


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 3789
Joined: 11-January 07
From: Two Mountain Ranch, Nampa, Idaho USA
Member No.: 4862



I don't care either way, ladies. (I just think of what other horses did, like Magnum Psyche or Khemosabi++++//) biggrin.gif The ER, ES, EB, SE, blah, blah are really insignificant labels when compared to a career like Khemo had - and several others of the "no-label other than purebred" variety.

Plus, I would just as soon we start a different thread and get out of this one for other topics.

Ray biggrin.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phanilah
post Aug 27 2008, 05:29 PM
Post #252


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1046
Joined: 22-March 03
Member No.: 201



QUOTE (Dieter @ Aug 27 2008, 06:01 PM)
Hi Beth,

Thanks for posting "the rules" - I thought I had described well in my post  biggrin.gif  (did you read it?).  I also advised Ray that Shai Mandate would not have been eligible, though perhaps stated more "delicately".

I disagree with your last paragraph "all the change did was take the "option B" out from the original category" because, as I said in my post:

Whereas, in the past, the foal of an Egyptian Related stallion, bred to an Egyptian Related mare was eligible.  Edited to add:  Thereby making that Egyptian Sired Colt inherently less valuable as a sire as his foal CANNOT be shown at the EE.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

Liz
*



My eye/hand coordination is leaving a bit to be desired today...let's try this again. wink.gif

Liz, I didn't see your post until I had already responded to Ray...so perhaps I was a little more direct. wink.gif

Personally, I thought it was strange they had ever included the 2 grandsire option - since the primary goal of the Pyramid Society is to perpetuate the breeding of Straight Egyptians, not the breeding of Egyptian relateds. The related category was meant to help expand the use of SE stallions by having them breed to non-Se mares. So yes, I can understand wanting to have the focus on having relateds be the result of breeding a SE sire to a non-SE mare and not the result of breeding 2 relateds together.

Beth
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dieter
post Aug 27 2008, 05:34 PM
Post #253


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1881
Joined: 28-December 03
Member No.: 1086



QUOTE (phanilah @ Aug 27 2008, 01:07 PM)
Yes, because that foal would have had 2 grandsires who were SE -option B-...that is what has been removed.  So now, the sire must be SE, there is no longer the ability to qualify by having 2 SE grandsires.

Beth
*

I'm glad we agree the Egyptian-Sired colt has been devalued as a result of that decision biggrin.gif One slice, two cuts by removing Option B.

For the life of me, I cannot imagine why any non-SE mare owner would breed to an SE stallion for an Egyptian-Sired foal - that label is worthless WHEN you get a colt so the breeder had better have been breeding for a great horse first. biggrin.gif

Edited to add:
QUOTE
Personally, I thought it was strange they had ever included the 2 grandsire option - since the primary goal of the Pyramid Society is to perpetuate the breeding of Straight Egyptians, not the breeding of Egyptian relateds. The related category was meant to help expand the use of SE stallions by having them breed to non-Se mares. So yes, I can understand wanting to have the focus on having relateds be the result of breeding a SE sire to a non-SE mare and not the result of breeding 2 relateds together.

Memberships=$$ biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Dieter: Aug 27 2008, 05:39 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
phanilah
post Aug 27 2008, 05:41 PM
Post #254


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1046
Joined: 22-March 03
Member No.: 201



QUOTE
For the life of me, I cannot imagine why any non-SE mare owner would breed to an SE stallion for an Egyptian-Sired foal - that label is worthless WHEN you get a colt so the breeder had better have been breeding for a great horse first


And there is a key...not everyone breeds with a label in mind.

I've always considered the purpose to encourage the use of SE stallions outside of the SE breeding population, to be so that other breeders could benefit from what those SE stallions could offer, in their quest for breeding good horses...any label attached is secondary.

Beth
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dieter
post Aug 27 2008, 05:53 PM
Post #255


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 1881
Joined: 28-December 03
Member No.: 1086



QUOTE (2mntn @ Aug 27 2008, 01:24 PM)
I don't care either way, ladies.  (I just think of what other horses did, like Magnum Psyche or Khemosabi++++//)  biggrin.gif The ER, ES, EB, SE, blah, blah are really insignificant labels when compared to a career like Khemo had - and several others of the "no-label other than purebred" variety.

Plus, I would just as soon we start a different thread and get out of this one for other topics.

Ray  biggrin.gif
*

Hahaha - Well Ray, you can do whatever you want in or out of this thread . . . But, remember it was YOU brought up the label issue! cool.gif

Also, my position for the record on the lovely mare *Exochorda is that she is considered SE, SO and whatever other labels she might carry by the organizations that make their own rules. That's good enough for me and everyone else belonging to or subscribing to the rules of those organizations. Someone stated somewhere that they suspected I didn't appreciate this blood. I would also like to state for the record, I currently own Rasim Amira, bred by Martha Murdoch who's maternal grandsire, Char Echo, was a *Sirecho grandson. She wouldn't be here if I didn't like her - clearly the *Exochorda blood is "good enough" for me. biggrin.gif

Liz
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

18 Pages V  « < 15 16 17 18 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 23rd October 2014 - 19:12
This site requires the Adobe Flash Player.