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> Statement Regarding *exochorda, For The Record...
katarin
post Jul 15 2008, 06:27 AM
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1rider
post Jul 15 2008, 07:33 AM
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why would you breed a related stallion to an se mare. even if she has exachorda in her pedigree. what did Dr Marei post in.ken
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1rider
post Jul 15 2008, 08:48 AM
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QUOTE (katarin @ Jul 15 2008, 07:27 AM)
Dear Oliver and Marilyn,

thank you for clarifying your point of view which I'm eager to share.

May I point out to all those who still doubt Exochordas status that yesterday Dr. Marei explained in this very forum why he bred an Egyptian related stallion to a SE mare? The mare considered SE is Itlalah Albadeia, a Simeon Sharav-daughter. Demelza explained  that Simeon Sharav is a descendant of Exochorda via Raadin Hilal.

I'm not a horse expert but I was into politics long enough. I'm asking Hansi and all those who defend her position:: Do you respect the judgement of an experienced and reknown Egyptian breeder or do you prefer to ignore him? This is not only a matter of courtesy but sheds a light on the real motivation of some research methods.
*

I read his post , he was just breeding for fun and said he wouldnt put this in his Se program
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katarin
post Jul 15 2008, 09:15 AM
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peter
post Jul 15 2008, 11:38 AM
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Dear Katarin,

I absolutely agree with you. I personally consider Caren an expert per excellence when it comes to her knowledge and investigation towards *Excochorda. But you stated something which actually hits the nail. It all comes down to politics, nothing more, nothing less. The more focuss there is on, let's say Exochorda, the more presssure there will be and the more people are getting involved, whether they like it or not.

How many horses were"questioned" throughout the years ? Let's name a few:

*Hanan for her questionable pedigree

*Bint Rissala, after her autopsy there were questions if she was an arab after all, her skeleton having more to do with an english purebred and not an arabian horse

Sameh, some breeders in Germany want to prevent the Sameh-blood because they consider him a questionable horse

Nasrallah/Shahriar, I do not have to explain he was the topic in the 80-ties whether related to his so-called questionable pedigree

Mishaan, again a horse with a questionable pedigree


And look at what has become of all of this. If you don't like Hanan, you do not want horses like Jamil or Salaa el Din either. If you do not like Bint Rissala, you want to avoid any horse with Kaisoon, Farag or Alaa el Din blood, too. If you hate Exochorda, you won't use the blood of Simeon Shai and Al Lahab as well. If you do not want Sameh blood, you avoid EVERYTHING that has to do with Ansata Bint Misr for instance ....Just to give some food for thought. All respectable horses and foundation-horses. If every person who has an egyptian horse or wants to have something to do or to say with or about egyptian horses just will respect the breed in general, we will not have such rediculous topics, completely taken out of context. I cannot recall how many times I have read the discussion about Hanan, Exochorda and so on this forum and it all comes down to NOT respecting eachother's horses, let alone how people express themselves in, let's say, most inapropriate ways. I mentioned it on this forum before, do not forget when you critize other's horses based on whatever reason, be aware you will certainly harm other people on purpose who may have cherished their horses for years, perhaps generations. Very disrepectful. But once rumours have started, it will be almost impossible to undo the damage. And the only victims in the end are the horses and nothing else.

Just my opinion because I am absolutely finished with these useless discussions.

Peter
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Arabiansummer
post Jul 15 2008, 01:00 PM
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QUOTE (peter @ Jul 15 2008, 12:38 PM)
And the only victims in the end are the horses and nothing else.
*


I think the horses are the only ones who couldn't care less biggrin.gif But you are absolutely right, I'ts absolutely useless and nothing more than politics and defamation. Funny how a small war breaks out whenever someone mentions Exochorda. Reminds me of superstitious actors who try to avoid saying the name "Macbeth", calling it the "Scottish play" instead. If they say the word by mistake, misfortune befalls all, just like here. laugh.gif laugh.gif

Keep up the good work Caryn.
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Caryn Rogosky
post Jul 15 2008, 01:45 PM
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Quote Ken:
"hello all whats the piont. the firs post said they have proof. post the proof. my understanding is that she was born 2 years after her parents saw each other now i dont know it all but gestation doesnt last 24 months then she comes back to Egypt and is exported"

Hi Ken,
Your understanding is incorrect, but I thank you for sharing it as this is an excellent example of how badly the reputation of this bloodline has been damaged by the wild speculation which has been spattered about on line and off line for decades now. If you are interested in learning more, it might be helpful for you to start by reading the article which I have already published via the link which Diane provided. You will find the the clarification there regarding the misinformation which you just mentioned.

Quote Ken:
"Hansi doesnt question the purity of her so called parents just how it all happened after they left the track. thats what needs to be proven. so if JF wanted to call Enzo Se then that would be the last word? "

Yes, it is true that NOW Hansi is stating that she doesn't question the purity of the parents, but that is a change from what she has previously stated. I wll be happy to post those earlier quotes from her for you today if you would like. My understanding is that she changed this public position when the Asil Club threatened to disassociate her if she did not cease questioning the purity of *Exochorda, as she is an Asil qualified mare. Since Hansi is reading this thread, she is welcomed to either confirm or deny that this is accurate.

As I stated in my original post, I will be providing all of the newly acquired information in one publication, and that the facts are in the process of being carefully checked...in several countries. It is important that the whole story be told in sequential order to avoid confusing readers...as there are many connections which go back and forth and are interwoven within the entire set of circumstances. However, I have decided to provideone piece of the information today which is clear and easily understood as it stands alone, so this should not be confusing to anyone.

Ken, I hope you don't mind but I have a question or two for you. Why is it that you state that it must be proven where the parents of Exochorda went AFTER she was born? How does that effect her qualifications as being a SE? Do you think we know that about all of the other SE ancestors? I have to tell you very straight, that this concept that this sort of information exists in all or even most of the cases of SE foundation ancestors is quite untrue. However, again we see how successful that the campaign to create doubt by power of suggestion rather than facts has been. One more question: Do you think that it is fair to require the same proof on all SE ancestors across the board, or should we just pick and choose these at will? Thanks, your input is much appreciated.
Caryn
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HLM
post Jul 15 2008, 01:46 PM
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Dear All

Of course the PS can decide at any time how to change the original minutes/rules to accommodate whatever. But even the last change includes horses bred in Egypt by a private breeder.

Now if the PS or anybody can give us that private breeder and the country foaled in, all is okay. Why is this so difficult to answer my questions and asked decade ago? Why would W R Brown sent a telegram to our registry here in 1930 which
states "Just a typical race track mare"- I have a copy of it? He obviously did not know either. Why has nobody ever heard of the parents and the offspring, the only one of these parents? Not Tunesia, Morocco,Lebanon,Saudi,Syria etc.etc.

According to my records neither owner of the parents were Egyptian
Citizens nor actual horse breeders, but owned here and there a horse to race for their pleasure.

Now lets hear what new inventions will come about, just like those making her eligable for the sheikh Obeyd Org.which truly is a joke in my opinion. A misrepresentation of the bluntest kind. that could also be changed by a proper footnote acknowledging the error copied from the AHRa data. the AHRa corrected it in their database and took the "Breeder RAS" out.

And Ken is right, I never questioned the mare's Asil status, going by her parents listed on the Export Certificate, of which I have a copy.

I stated many times that at discussion never was the mare herself, but her acclaimed labels here, the latter the couse for many a sale as high as in six figure amounts strictly on a label, not on the horse,when it on its own merrit would have been worth one percent of it in the opinion of horsemen. as many others were and are.

I always adored Simeon Shai, truly an outstanding stallion and there are others which I like as a horse just as well. so what is the problem? the money making label? the sooner we start breeding horses by their meritts, the better off the industry will be. there were no "Labels" prior to what I mentined above, and the imported lines through Babson etc did extremely well, dont you all agree?
I always felt that the importance was that the horse can be accepted as "Asil"
and if that is not good enough, what will be?

the only reason for this continous debate could be that some people are running scared, knowing they did wrong by false disclosure. However, I gladly stand corrected if finally we find the breeder and the country of birth. It's been 40 years I am searching and could not find!

All take care
Hansi biggrin.gif
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Caryn Rogosky
post Jul 15 2008, 01:58 PM
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Quote Peter:
" I mentioned it on this forum before, do not forget when you critize other's horses based on whatever reason, be aware you will certainly harm other people on purpose who may have cherished their horses for years, perhaps generations. Very disrepectful. But once rumours have started, it will be almost impossible to undo the damage. And the only victims in the end are the horses and nothing else."

You re absolutely right, and have stated my position exactly. When any one of us is disrespectful or berates the credentials of any Arabian bloodlines it is terribly rtful and damaging to the people who have devoted their blood, sweat and tears to these horses. It also does untold damage to the industry at large, which directly causes harm to the horses themselves. The shingles of our roof are torn down one by one, for what purpose? Competition gone askew...the lust for power and greed, as is always the case. I do hope you will not abandon the discussions, your thoughts and opinions are valuable.
Caryn
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HLM
post Jul 15 2008, 02:00 PM
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Dear Katarin

I truly dont understand why you asked this. What has this to do with breeding a good horse? Nasr already topbred an Asil mare with a non-asil stallion.

Since when does a "Label" decide what is good or not?
We have bred hundreds of egyptian related Arabians, does this make us a good or bad breeder? Or did we breed for good horses? Many became champions and produced such.And the stallions were "tested" to make certain that they were of breeding quality, not just looking beautiful. Gleannloch did not import originally because of a "Label", neither did Babson. That labelname was invented by Mrs Ott in her 1967 catalogue and carried forward by the PS. And when it comes down to the knitty gritty, most all ancestors of the label horses came from Syria, some from Saudi and Palestine and all could actually have originated from Yemen.
.

All other breeds dont have labels, I suppose, but their breeders- and we can call them that-, try to breed for a functional horse. so may be you like to define what a horsebreeder actual is and supposed to do to qualify as such, large or small.

do you qualify GM, Ford,Chrysler as car producers? I do, they test their product.
Should not any product for human consumption or use be tested? Can you imagine if this would not be so? Well my dear, this is what you have often in our industry, which brought it to its knees. Now that is only my opinion.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serenity Arabian Farms



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HLM
post Jul 15 2008, 02:03 PM
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Yes Peter, I agree, but you forgot one thing" it all comes down to money, the price put on certain label horse" and not by their own merrits.

Just my opinion through exerienced.

Hansi biggrin.gif
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HLM
post Jul 15 2008, 02:15 PM
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Dear all

what I will never condone are outragous lies. I am for over a decade a director of the Asil Club and have never been threated to stop the Exochorda issue or any other issue. There is also enough data on hand with AK to confirm my belief of the Asil heritage of the mare, going by her listed parents on the export certificate.
I still superwise pedigrees of new entries and will until I decide to stop.

I do not recall any of our renowned international researchers ever making such public outragous untruthful statements, or anywhere else, and if this is research, what else can we expect, more Novels? Just wonder whatelse will be done and said to excuse falseties, fraud, forgeries, misrepresentation and the likes.

None of you have to accept my statements which I make in good faith, and can back up, and if all of you want to call liars researcher, so be it.Just remember what their gain is, or for that matter mine.

Hansi Heck-Melnyk
Serenity Arabian Farms
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An American Bree...
post Jul 15 2008, 02:17 PM
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STOP THE FIGHTING ! !

I, for one, am SICK of it ! Get on with life!
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Caryn Rogosky
post Jul 15 2008, 02:18 PM
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Quote Hansi:
"Now lets hear what new inventions will come about, just like those making her eligable for the sheikh Obeyd Org.which truly is a joke in my opinion"

Wouldn't an objective, unbiased researcher typically be very positive about information coming forth?

Hansi has stated that she has tried for 40 years to find information on this mare, so I have a couple of direct questions for her:
Hansi, have you personally gone to the EAO library and searched through their vast collection of books for this or related information? Have you ever personally gone to the Jockey Club to search through their records for this or related information? I think the readers of this forum would appreciate knowing the real and exact extent of your searching. If so, when was that and esactly what did you find?
Caryn
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Diana
post Jul 15 2008, 02:28 PM
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I thought Exochorda was accepted by the Pyramid Society from the start?
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