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> Q. Is Exochorda Pure Arabian Mare?
AL DHAFRA
post May 9 2009, 06:54 PM
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dear members i was wondering if some can help me finding answer to my Q?

is EXOCHORDA (1924) by AIGLON out of LEILA arabian mare ? if yes is she an SE mare?


all the best

Al Dhafra Stud
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 11 2009, 01:20 AM
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Dear Carol and All,
I swore never to get into an Internet debate on this topic again, and I am not going to do so now, but I think that Carol's and Liz's comments are outstanding and merit a long, hard look. For those who may not be new to this topic, here are a couple of points to consider:

1. With regard to the circumstances of lost breeder records in Egypt during the first half of the 1900's and before: We cannot apply the same logic and assumptions which would be appropriate today in this event -- there would not likely be a second set of records, and probably no official records. There was NO general stud book, no Registry, no government control or oversight of private breeders or their records in Egypt during that time. If a breeder's records were lost or destroyed...that was pretty much it, except for the possibility that there may be an overlapping of documentation somewhere along the line (such as export documents, racing information, etc).

2. The stud records of Prince Kemal El Dine, the President of the RAS and a private breeder during the early part of the 1900's, have been lost or destroyed. As of today, as far as anyone knows...they don't exist. We only have records compiled through anecdotal means, such as letters from visitors, etc, and the kinds of overlapping documentation which I have mentioned. One such record is a letter which was written by a visitor to the farm of Kamel El Dine, in which he cites the existence there of many "unnamed" or "unknown" horses -- at least to him. In his outstanding article, "Rustem in Retrospect" (Khamsat Vol. 12, No.1), Joe Ferriss states: "I thought it would be interesting to try to document all known Al Khamsa get of Rustem (*Astraled by Ridaa). Using sources such as: Vol. II of AHS stud book, Hansi Heck-Melnyk's Straight Egyptian Index, Al Khamsa Arabians LL, and the 1932 letter to W.R. Brown published in Khamsat Vol. 4, No. 3, courtesy of Carol Lyons, I was able to come up with a composite list of 34 get of Rustem. In checking the RAS Stud book Vol I, I found that of those get produced in Egypt (and there may be others not documented) very few appear in any official records. A number of them are properly photographed or identified by Jack Humphrey in 1932 in Egypt while visiting Prince Kemal El Dine. Some had no names. Three of the dams of these Rustem get are not identified in any stud book or official record with ancestry, strain, breeders ect. recorded.--- these being Nizma, Rizkia and Hasni Hegazia...ultimately only the Prince knows who these mares are. But I have no reason NOT to think of them as Egyptian Arabian horses. This is but one example of what we have to constantly deal with in exploring the details of past ancestry".

3. During our visit to Egypt two years ago, Marilyn Lang and I were told by authorities at the EAO that most of the actual records of Dr. Branch, the Director of horse breeding operations at the RAS and mentor/breeding consultant to both Prince Kemal El Dine and Prince Mohamed Aly, were lost in the early 1930's. What is known of the early breeding activities at the RAS was recreated from notes and memory by Dr. Ashoub over a decade after Dr. Branch had retired from his post.

4. There is no PROOF of purity (or of SE qualification) for ANY SE ancestor -- bar none. The only element upon which we can rely is reasonable evidence. PURITY is improvable for any horse born prior to DNA testing -- and even the "absolute" concept of DNA testing can be challenged to some degree. I harken back to the Al Khamsa definition of purity, which leaves enough wiggle room necessary to allow for the reality of "non-proof", the best and most honest means of approaching this issue.

5. There is currently far MORE evidence available for Leila II (*Exochorda) regarding her place of birth, her birth date and the names and provenance of her parents than MANY very famous and popular ancestors, including but by no means limited to, El Dere -- whose purity and qualifications as a SE I do not doubt for one second. El Dere is an excellent example because of his familiarity and impact on the SE Arabian bloodlines -- we all realize the strength of his blood within the SE population. However, he is only one of countless ancestors who could be singled out as "questionable" according to the very same criteria as some others have been...but are curiously avoided and/or defended. Its simply a matter of an illogical and unethical double standard.

6. There is very strong and mounting evidence to support the belief that Leila II was bred and/or raised by Prince Kemal El Din (the cousin to Prince Mohamed Aly and then the President of the RAS) -- and at this time, there is no evidence at all to prove that this is not the case. There is ZERO evidence to support any idea that the ancestry or qualifications of Leila II are any more "questionable" than any other Straight Egyptian Arabian horse. Not even one iota...never has been.

7. It is true that there have been very damaging rumors planted and circulated to imply impurity or lack of provenance in the pedigrees of some of the greatest bloodlines the SE community has ever known. I believe very strongly that this is no accident. Think about it...who has ever bothered to target bloodlines that weren't gaining success? It is easy to promote the "purest of the pure" label stuck on the rumps of one's own breeding animals by simply pointing out whatever holes exist in "the other guys" horse's pedigrees -- while absolutely ignoring the same (or worse) holes which exist in the ancestry of one's own herd. What easier way to bring down a competitor's breeding program or to devaluate a competitors produce? And it has always worked like a charm. Why? Because the people who perpetrate these rumors DEPEND upon the lack of knowledge of others.
To have knowledge is to be empowered.
Caryn Rogosky
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Dieter
post Mar 19 2012, 11:55 AM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 10 2009, 09:20 PM) *
<snipped>6. There is very strong and mounting evidence to support the belief that Leila II was bred and/or raised by Prince Kemal El Din (the cousin to Prince Mohamed Aly and then the President of the RAS) -- and at this time, there is no evidence at all to prove that this is not the case. There is ZERO evidence to support any idea that the ancestry or qualifications of Leila II are any more "questionable" than any other Straight Egyptian Arabian horse. Not even one iota...never has been.<snipped>Caryn Rogosky

In an effort to keep the record straight, I wrote to the EAO El Zahraa Stud earlier this year about this mare. Their answer, in part was:
QUOTE
Exochorda is not and never was in the breeding programme of ElZahraa horses, ElZahraa breeding programme including along the history Arabians well knwn and well collected from the kings and sheiks, princes as you known, as for excorda it is in some private arabians, that means BELONGING TO OWNERS NOT THE E.A.O.
Anyone can write to the EAO and pose questions, but for the record, the EAO has stated this mare was NOT owned by any royalty as suggested in #6 above.
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Caryn Rogosky
post Mar 19 2012, 12:47 PM
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QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 12:55 PM) *
In an effort to keep the record straight, I wrote to the EAO El Zahraa Stud earlier this year about this mare. Their answer, in part was:
Anyone can write to the EAO and pose questions, but for the record, the EAO has stated this mare was NOT owned by any royalty as suggested in #6 above.



No one ever claimed she was part of El Zahraa...of course she was not! El Zahraa was not even in existence at that time. The EAO did not state that this mare was NOT OWNED BY ANY ROYALTY. They stated that she did not belong to El Zahraa, but by a private breeder. The members of the Royal family WERE private breeders. The EAO did not state that she was not owned by a member of the Royal family, because they could not. They do not know the identities of all of the horses that were owned by all members of the Royal family -- no one knows because some of them didn't have complete stud books, and many of their stud books are gone! The horses they know are the ones that were donated to the RAS or EAO, and were incorporated into the EAO program. There was no national stud book at this time.

For example, can you tell us, Liz Dieter, the names and identities of all of the horses owned, bred and in the posession of Prince Kemal El Din? Can you tell us what happened to them all when his herd was dispersed?
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Dieter
post Mar 19 2012, 12:54 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Mar 19 2012, 08:47 AM) *
No one ever claimed she was part of El Zahraa...of course she was not! El Zahraa was not even in existence at that time. The EAO did not state that this mare was NOT OWNED BY ANY ROYALTY. They stated that she did not belong to El Zahraa, but by a private breeder. The members of the Royal family WERE private breeders. The EAO did not state that she was not owned by a member of the Royal family, because they could not. They do not know the identities of all of the horses that were owned by all members of the Royal family -- no one knows because many of their stud books are gone! The ones they know are the ones that were donated to the RAS or EAO, and were incorporated into the EAO program. There was no national stud book at this time.

For example, can you tell us, Liz Dieter, the names and identities of all of the horses owned, bred and in the posession of Prince Kemal El Din? Can you tell us what happened to them all when his herd was dispersed?
LOL - not going to play follow the leader with you kiddo or point to your ability to contradict yourself. We will agree to disagree on how to interpret their statement.
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Caryn Rogosky
post Mar 19 2012, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 01:54 PM) *
LOL - not going to play follow the leader with you kiddo or point to your ability to contradict yourself. We will agree to disagree on how to interpret their statement.



No, I won't agree to disagree on this point -- you are misstating a fact and its clear as glass. It is not a matter of interpretation for those who know the reality of the history of the RAS. Quite frankly, your interpretation is so skewed that it is just false, and convinces me that you really do not have an understanding of the history of the RAS, the EAO and the early breeders of Egypt. Do you own a copy of the RAS History Book?
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Posts in this topic
- AL DHAFRA   Q. Is Exochorda Pure Arabian Mare?   May 9 2009, 06:54 PM
- - Razgold   Yes to both questions. She is in my mare's ped...   May 9 2009, 07:04 PM
- - Liz Salmon   Definitely Yes to both questions !! A grea...   May 9 2009, 07:54 PM
- - 1rider   There still is no proof on rthe SE just marginal ...   May 10 2009, 01:25 AM
- - carolmaginn   In my opinion, there was clear proof provided for ...   May 10 2009, 02:22 AM
- - 1rider   Yes Carol people shouldnt fallow blindly! and ...   May 10 2009, 03:07 AM
- - carolmaginn   Sure Ken, I agree with you - no one ever put th...   May 10 2009, 04:12 AM
- - Tous crins   QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 9 2009, 08:12 PM)Sur...   May 10 2009, 04:38 AM
- - 1rider   Just a reminder there is no question of purity.......   May 10 2009, 04:52 AM
- - carolmaginn   Hi Ken, Okay - I hear what you are saying.... I a...   May 10 2009, 07:39 AM
- - Liz Salmon   What a great epistle Carol !!!! Yo...   May 10 2009, 12:02 PM
- - Lil Buddha   *sigh* my head hurts and my hair is on fire...ano...   May 10 2009, 01:13 PM
- - KGH   Somebody get this man some water! Exochorda i...   May 10 2009, 01:37 PM
- - Liz Salmon   With that said from KGH, doesn't everyone thin...   May 10 2009, 01:46 PM
- - Al Sahra Arabians   Thank you Carol, Liz and everyone else for this di...   May 10 2009, 01:57 PM
- - MHuprich   The term "Straight Egyptian" is one that...   May 10 2009, 02:11 PM
- - sarri   QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 08:39 AM)Hi...   May 10 2009, 02:14 PM
- - carolmaginn   Liz, That is great, but I still think that long t...   May 10 2009, 02:36 PM
- - carolmaginn   Hi Sarry, I do not think that it says on the AHA ...   May 10 2009, 02:53 PM
- - sarri   QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 03:53 PM)Hi...   May 10 2009, 03:24 PM
- - carolmaginn   Liz, I don't think its time for closure yet -...   May 10 2009, 03:33 PM
- - carolmaginn   Not if I used a breeding facility not at my farm.....   May 10 2009, 03:35 PM
- - sarri   QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 04:35 PM)No...   May 10 2009, 03:42 PM
- - sarri   QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 04:33 PM)Li...   May 10 2009, 03:44 PM
- - Liz Salmon   Yes, Carol, David Frost was a household name in th...   May 10 2009, 03:45 PM
- - carolmaginn   Liz, I am not an expert in any way, however it is...   May 10 2009, 05:27 PM
- - carolmaginn   Well let me put it this way.... I wouldn't giv...   May 10 2009, 05:52 PM
- - sarri   QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 06:52 PM)We...   May 10 2009, 06:06 PM
- - KGH   Sarri, There was a time when breeders would often ...   May 10 2009, 06:13 PM
- - carolmaginn   Sarri, I should have known you were just kidding,...   May 10 2009, 06:16 PM
- - carolmaginn   Well this is true... Kelly I think you may have lo...   May 10 2009, 06:27 PM
- - KGH   Carol Many stallion owners are turning away from p...   May 10 2009, 06:49 PM
- - sarri   QUOTE (KGH @ May 10 2009, 07:13 PM)Sarri, The...   May 10 2009, 06:55 PM
- - carolmaginn   Well I think swapping is a great plan... and a goo...   May 10 2009, 07:31 PM
- - carolmaginn   Hey I currently maintain the Sheyk Obeyd website. ...   May 10 2009, 07:34 PM
- - Solita   I love your way of thinking Carol QUOTE (carol...   May 10 2009, 09:17 PM
|- - diane   QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 09:55 PM) QU...   Mar 19 2012, 12:24 PM
||- - Dieter   QUOTE (diane @ Mar 19 2012, 08:24 AM) In ...   Mar 19 2012, 12:32 PM
||- - diane   QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 10:32 PM) We...   Mar 19 2012, 12:40 PM
||- - Dieter   QUOTE (diane @ Mar 19 2012, 08:40 AM) Que...   Mar 19 2012, 12:59 PM
||- - Dieter   QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Mar 19 2012, 09:01...   Mar 19 2012, 01:16 PM
||- - Caryn Rogosky   QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 02:16 PM) Re...   Mar 19 2012, 02:22 PM
||- - Dieter   QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Mar 19 2012, 10:22...   Mar 19 2012, 02:28 PM
||- - HLM   QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 04:28 PM) LO...   Mar 19 2012, 07:48 PM
|- - Dieter   QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Mar 19 2012, 08:47...   Mar 19 2012, 01:48 PM
|- - Caryn Rogosky   QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 02:48 PM) An...   Mar 19 2012, 02:12 PM
|- - Dieter   QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Mar 19 2012, 10:12...   Mar 19 2012, 02:16 PM
|- - HLM   QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 04:16 PM) Se...   Mar 19 2012, 07:44 PM
|- - Caryn Rogosky   QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 19 2012, 09:44 PM) Liz ...   Mar 19 2012, 08:00 PM
|- - 2mntn   QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Mar 19 2012, 02:00...   Mar 19 2012, 08:09 PM
|- - HLM   QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 19 2012, 09:09 PM) LOL...   Mar 19 2012, 08:48 PM
|- - Caryn Rogosky   QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 19 2012, 09:48 PM) O my ...   Mar 19 2012, 09:03 PM
- - 1rider   7. It is true that there have been very damaging r...   May 11 2009, 04:23 AM
- - carolmaginn   Ken, It really doesn't matter that no one has...   May 11 2009, 04:52 AM
- - Caryn Rogosky   I agree, it should just be about questions and res...   May 11 2009, 03:08 PM
- - MHuprich   Liz, are you saying the EAO only used horses that ...   Mar 19 2012, 12:44 PM
|- - Dieter   QUOTE (MHuprich @ Mar 19 2012, 08:44 AM) ...   Mar 19 2012, 01:10 PM
- - Kimberli   I could make a list of thousands of Registered Ara...   Mar 19 2012, 02:43 PM
|- - Dieter   QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 19 2012, 10:43 AM) ...   Mar 19 2012, 03:17 PM
- - Kimberli   Liz, you are absolutely correct! Therefore, ...   Mar 19 2012, 03:32 PM
|- - Dieter   QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 19 2012, 11:32 AM) ...   Mar 19 2012, 03:40 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 19 2012, 08:32 AM) ...   Mar 19 2012, 03:49 PM
- - Kimberli   The question that started this thread some 3 years...   Mar 19 2012, 03:50 PM
|- - HLM   QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 19 2012, 05:50 PM) ...   Mar 19 2012, 07:51 PM
|- - diane   QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 20 2012, 05:51 AM) Dear ...   Mar 19 2012, 10:39 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 19 2012, 01:09 PM) LOL...   Mar 19 2012, 08:12 PM
|- - Caryn Rogosky   QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Mar 19 2012, 09:12 P...   Mar 19 2012, 08:46 PM
- - Caryn Rogosky   BTW, it was Liz Dieter who was under the impressio...   Mar 19 2012, 09:05 PM
- - karin   This discussion is many times repeated. Please clo...   Mar 19 2012, 11:22 PM
- - karin   Topic closed and I hope that people let it rest no...   Mar 19 2012, 11:39 PM


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