Okay - I hear what you are saying.... I am enjoying this discussion... Thanks for helping me with it... I hope it is okay for me to continue to "argue" the other side or for other explanations? I hope so... I know you are not really "arguing" with me - we are just having a good discussion on this topic...
Okay - so here goes....Would you like to know how many mares are here at my farm that there would be no records of them ever being "used"? There are logical explanations but if say 20 years went by and I was dead for some reason how could you know the reasons the mare was not used?
1) Example 1 : Makhnifique KA - I did use her. Her foal aborted at 8 months gestation so there will be no record I ever "used" her as a broodmare. If my vet were to move or retire how would you ever find any record that she was actually bred? There would be none that you could find. Is she pure? Absolutely - the purest and a great mare but you will never find records of me using her.
2) Example 2: OBrenna D - 12 years old... I love the mare. First foal born April 13, 2009. Foal was euthanized on April 14, 2009 at Texas A&M - It was a dummy foal - so it will not be registered - so it looks like she was never used. I do not know for sure where she was bred, or born. I would guess it would be in Michigan at the farm of her dam, but I can't be sure... They could have sent her somewhere else to foal out.
3) Example 3 - Bellisimo BCR - just 4 years old - no babies on the ground. Did I use him? Yes - but the first foal is not here yet - baby is due in June. If the baby lives - then you know I used him, if not? Maybe it looks like I never used him? I've never shown him either - just have not done that yet - mostly because I'm busy and have had alot going on over the past few years.
Now once again.... Lets pretend that the year is 2030. I have died, and my husband has also passed away by now. I am an only child, so there are no siblings for you to call even if they were still living. Now here is a question for you... A foal named Bellisimo BCR was born lets say in the year 2005. Can you tell anyone where are the records of where he was born? How about where he was bred? Heck - in all honesty lets not even fast forward to 2030 - lets make it today's year 2009. Now assume that the two people who delivered this foal named Bellisimo BCR (my husband and I delivered him) were killed in a car accident. No one else was in the barn but us that night so how do you know where he was born? I have two different farms, and use a 3rd farm in Fort Worth along with a vet in Weatherford, and one more in Austin... It could have been that he was bred in any of 4 different places and born in 2 or 3 different places - somewhere in Texas.
So tell me - where was Bellisimo BCR born? Where was he Bred? I assure you he is has no "questionable" horses in his pedigree, but can anyone tell where he was bred and born? And oh by the way - lets assume that following my husband and my's death that his only foal was aborted by the dam. You would think I never used him even though I did. The new owners of Bellisimo might have taken him and just used him for a personal riding horse and didn't even bother to register him in their name so you don't even know what ever happened to him. I have a nice friend named Guillermo who takes care of our horses when I'm out of town... He loves Bellisimo. He would love to have him and he wouldn't care if he was registered in his name either. Knowing Guillermo - he would probably leave Bellisimo as a stallion - breed him for his friends and never register any of the foals. You'd never now how to find Guillermo or Bellisimo again if he were not registered in Guillermo's name.
There are many SEs that exist which I couldn't tell you where they were born. For example my mare Bint Kohela has had 3 foals registered. They existed and they were SE. They are in the AHA database. I couldn't tell you where they were born or bred. I can't even tell you where they are now. How could I know that? I don't know the owners. I have even tried to find the owners of these foals as I would love to have another one of her foals. I can't find the original owners or breeders. The prior owners of her foals got a divorce and because the husband was mad he wouldn't give his wife the papers so the offspring are living probably somewhere but I have no idea where.... So I know they were born, bred, and registered, but I can't tell you where they were bred, born or where they are today. I don't even know if they are alive anymore.
So it seems to me there could be many many reasons (like the ones I showed above) for why no one knows where Exochorda was born or bred. And also there could be some logical explanation for why the RAS never used her. Maybe she was injured or sick for a period of time and couldn't be used.
Last month I went to visit a farm in southern CA just outside LA. The owner is a wonderful lady who has some mares with very precious bloodlines and many of the mares have never been used. You might think there was something wrong with them, but there isn't - other then that now they are older. The reason she never bred most of them is that her daughter died unexpectedly at the age of 17 and she lost her desire to breed anything. She was depressed.
I would love to know what was going on at the RAS at the time that Exochorda was there. Could it be they were tight on money and didn't breed or use every mare they had? How many people own horses they never use - they are "pasture pets". We all have big plans when we get horses, but I can tell you that I bought a mare in 2000 and didn't ever show her and only bred her for the first time last year... Yes shame on me - but you think you have plenty of time, and then the next thing you know - 8 years goes by...
So what I do not understand is why would someone question the mares status as SE just because we don't know where she was bred, or born, and because no one is sure of the exact birthday. I know of a good friend who bred a horse I bought. The horse has an "official" birthday - but its inaccurate. The reason is that his most beloved horse passed away and he didn't do anything for months. He was depressed. So some time the FOLLOWING year he registered this horse - I am not sure that he remembered the exact date the horse was actually born - if he did he would have registered the original date. If my friend had never registered the horse and then moved on and out of the SE world - who knows if you would have ever been able to figure out the date of foaling.
I know people who have been very big into SE horses and then suddenly didn't show up one year at the Egyptian Event - gave all their horses to their vet in Arkansas and just seemed to disappear. Who in the world could have ever predicted that would happen? Surely none of the owners of the horses who were expecting the farm to show up at the Event that year... I think this happened about 4 or 5 years ago in fact... Stange things happen all the time. I have learned not to be shocked by anything anymore as life is full of roadblocks and surprises you sometimes suddenly have to deal with. Sometimes it may take years to recover...
So again - I can think of many reasons why information about breeding location, birth location, birth date and even breeder's name could be lost. It could be that there were multiple owners for example. None of the missing data makes me think the horse is not SE, it makes me think that something happened around that date in the lives of the people who bred, foaled out, and initially owned the horse that caused the exact dates to be lost.
I am really curious to know why someone made such a leap in thinking to discredit this mare's heritage... and even more curious to know why other people went along with this thinking without asking the same kind of questions I have asked about in this post.
I thought of one possible thing that would explain this whole Exochorda mess and that is resentment, or fear of something. For example I have seen breeders put other programs down because they find it easier to discredit others programs rather then stand behind their own. It is so much easier to knock others then show the value of your own program - especially if in your heart you feel you are behind the eight ball so to speak. Think about it.... if someone has a bunch of average or even less then average horses, and they see another breeder breeding beautiful horses that people would probably prefer, how in the world would they compete with this? It would take years to raise the bar in their own program so perhaps it might just be easier to discredit the pedigree of the other program and scare people off so that the buyers will instead buy into their programs. Its lousy I know, but I happens today, so it probably happened years ago as well.
What would make me say a horse is not SE would be something like this:
A person who bred a mare stated that her sire was not SE or her dam was not SE. By stating I mean they registered the horse as being a non SE horse. But missing records alone or lack of evidence is not to me proof of anything other then missing info.
One thing we have now that helps to verify approximate breeding dates and pedigrees is the new Stallion Registration paperwork from AHA as well as the DNA being on file to verify parentage.
So - Ken - once again - I guess I come to the conclusion you did as well - you either believe or you don't, but I think that the simplest explanation is probably the most likely. For me it is easier to believe that the breeding and birth locations are not documented for the same reasons my own foals breeding and foaling locations are not documented.
It is alot more complex to conclude that there was a conspiracy to hide the heritage of the horse then just that there were not records. And again - why does Exochorda's pedigree get questioned so vigorously given how many other horses have this same missing data - including some of my own and I'm sure lots of other breeders....
I do wish there was some relative of the breeder of Exochorda who could vouch for her SE Status, however I would see no reason to conclude she was not SE just because we can't find any relatives anymore...
The fact that some have fought so hard to discredit this mare's SE status and not so many other horses with the same missing info, makes me wonder if there isn't some other reason they are doing this - why this horse? Why make such a huge effort to tarnish her birthright? Surely his must have made a few people wonder...
The absence of facts does not substantiate any theory - it proves only that there is a lack of data. To validate any theory or hypothesis in my opinion - you would need the facts to back up the hypothesis...
ps: I'm exhausted and I can't even believe I'm up so late again so I think its time for me to stop being such a windbag... Thanks for listening to my questions, ideas and assumptions again - I appreciate your help.
QUOTE (1rider @ May 9 2009, 11:52 PM)
Just a reminder there is no question of purity.....................and the other is she was never used by the RAS...still the things no one has answered is where she was bred/ foal and by who.. would love to see those things answered so it would clear everything up without doubt. i have looked at both sides and see not proof of either just the parents and a birthday that had to be interpreted.... I just want facts.. but there arent many.... so you must just except it or not. i know horses of EX and TM being exported to the middle east.. so if they like the horse and need it to compete they will buy sooner or later. I have seen that if they want i,t it wont matter...Ken