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> Q. Is Exochorda Pure Arabian Mare?
AL DHAFRA
post May 9 2009, 06:54 PM
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dear members i was wondering if some can help me finding answer to my Q?

is EXOCHORDA (1924) by AIGLON out of LEILA arabian mare ? if yes is she an SE mare?


all the best

Al Dhafra Stud
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Razgold
post May 9 2009, 07:04 PM
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Yes to both questions. She is in my mare's pedigree and my mare is SE.

Sue.
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Liz Salmon
post May 9 2009, 07:54 PM
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Definitely Yes to both questions !! A great deal of research was done to prove that she is in fact a SE.
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1rider
post May 10 2009, 01:25 AM
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There still is no proof on rthe SE just marginal circumstantial evidence, but she is excepted SE so guess thats what counts. Never been a question if she was a pure bred just the SE part ...Ken
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carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 02:22 AM
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In my opinion, there was clear proof provided for all to see by Marilyn Lang and Caryn Rogosky during their trip to Cairo two years ago when they went to the archives at the Cairo jockey club through the assistance of Mr. Mohammad Amin of Al Amin Stud in Cairo - a breeder with the utmost integrity and generosity along with Marilyn and Caryn.

There was some discussion on this forum about one year ago in which an actual document was produced which proved the fact that Exochorda is a PURE SE Arabian. After seeing all of the evidence presented from both sides of the debate - it was evident to me that Exochorda was indeed pure. I think if you did a "search" you could see all the evidence from both perspectives and decide for yourself.

Many good horses and decendents of these horses have had their reputations destroyed by people who passed along what is in my opinion false information.

The tarnishing of some SE lines has caused harm to some of the greatest SE horses of our time, not just Exochorda, but also The Minstril, Orashan and honestly in my opinion some of the most beautiful lines which when combined with other lines allow breeders to produce both beauty and athleticism. Although I would argue that Orashan was one of the more atheletic horses of our time. I am sure that the people who are out there repeating this nonsense truly believe that they are right and are trying to keep the breed pure. I know they are not purposely trying to cause harm, its just that they often form their beliefs based on what others have said without really doing the work and research required to prove or disprove the truth of the hearsay they are sharing with others. Its much like the way that gossip is passed along. Even if it is eventually found to be untrue - reputations can be permanently harmed. I admit that I myself have passed along things I had been told to be true by those I most admired and respected. Eventually over time I've realized that I was wrong, and how important to use my own brain and not just follow others. Its important to question everyone and everything and not just follow blindly.

To all the new breeders out there - may you have the courage to pave your own path and take a few risks and breed what makes your heart sing - not just what others tell you is "good" or "bad". Listen to your heart for in the end I feel that this is what it takes to feel truly satisfied and fulfilled.

Carol
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1rider
post May 10 2009, 03:07 AM
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Yes Carol people shouldnt fallow blindly! and there was no new document found.. the documents are all the ones that have been around since the beginning of all this... some dates but still nothing saying she was born here on this date bred by this person..... there was dates that helped narrow some things down.. maybe you should go back and read it..... And i just want the truth also. That s why i questions everything also.. and never have i heard anyone put the horses down themselves or say they are not pure bred Arabians..Just the SE label is the question...many of my best horses have this line.....Ken
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carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 04:12 AM
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Sure Ken,

I agree with you - no one ever put the actual horse's down, yet the horses's reputations have been tarnished due to people making claims that horse's are not SE even it that actual individual horse was top quality. If you are an SE breeder and someone makes a claim that a horse is not SE that ruins the horse's reputation because some potential buyers will be afraid to have any horses with "questionable lines" in the pedigree. In my opinion, when a top horse is overlooked simply because someone heard from some well known breeder that a horse is not pure. I just find that case to be really unfortunate.

I have had people in some countries who tell me that they do not want any horses with certain horses in the pedigree. They give me a long list of unacceptable lines and horses. When I have asked why they do not like these lines they say it is because "many people over here don't want these lines". They don't know or care why others don't want those lines, the fact is that since there is such prejudice in their community, they don't want to have to deal with limiting their market for future foals.

I don't understand why it is that those who claimed that those lines were not SE were never required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt - their words and claims were enough for others to just follow. And yet the burden of actual real proof was instead placed on those who had to defend these lines to the people who made these claims. In our legal system - the burden of proof is always placed on the prosecutor not on the defense - so why in this case do we not require proof beyond reasonable doubt from those who claim the horses to be impure? In fact I had jury duty last month and the defense never even testified because it was not the defense's job to defend, the burden of proof lies with the accuser (or in this case our District Attorney who was prosecuting that case).

Also I have always wondered - with all the SE horses that have been bred from the beginning of time - what are the odds that a non SE horse never got into the gene pool? I mean I have the greatest respect for the Bedouins, but as they are only human, how do we know that one night a stallion from some non pure herd might have made his way over to some poor Bedoun's mare band? We never question if this might have happened, so why is it that only particular lines are questioned so vigorously? Why do we not ask for proof for every line that is not well documented? This has happened to many people I have heard of - the stallion gets out and breeds a mare accidently.

I agree with you that many of the best horses do have this line - many of my favorites....

So as for what is the truth in regard to Exochorda, I do not feel that those who question the pedigree's purity have produced enough proof to prove impurity beyond a reasonable doubt and therefore she should be considered pure. And I feel that those who have been forced to defend the pedigree have done more to prove purity then those who cast the questions.

One more thing I often think about - I believe it was Joe Ferriss who proved the purity of the Minstril - is that right? I can't recall all the details - maybe I need to go read about that too, but I seem to remember him somehow proving that *Bahila was indeed pure (Minstril's dam). Despite this proof - how many serious breeders who believed this line to be impure for many years changed their minds just because one day Joe found some very good evidence and in fact proved this? My guess is that not many really changed their minds. So this is why I say that even if the proof was staring at those who question these lines right in the face - they couldn't erase their feelings towards these lines after so many years of prejudice. A reputation is easy to destroy and even if exhonorated with actual hard proof it is not easy to repair.

Do you remember the guy who was running for office in California who they accused of murdering Chaundra Levy - one of his interns? His career was destroyed, his wife left him I think, even despite that years later they eventually found the real killer and he was proclaimed innocent.

Many people called Galileo insane for saying that the earth revolved around the sun. Now we can both look back and see how ignorant they really were. Unfortunately, there will always be bigots, who out of fear hurt people who try things that are different from what they would do. But it is those who open their minds, who have the courage to be different, who actually make a difference in society and in breeding programs...

I appreciate all that you have said Ken - totally. In reality, what I have posted is just me sharing my thoughts on this topic for once, as I do not think I ever posted about this before - even on that old Exochorda thread from last year, even though one of my best friends was vigorously defending Exochorda... I was busy and I wish I had said this sooner.

Many thanks for your respectful dialog. I do appreciate this discussion with you and others.

Carol

QUOTE (1rider @ May 9 2009, 10:07 PM)
Yes Carol people shouldnt fallow blindly! and there was no new  document found.. the documents are all the ones that have been around since the beginning of all this...  some dates but still nothing saying she was born here on this date bred by this person..... there was dates that helped narrow some things down.. maybe you should go back and read it..... And i just want the truth also. That s why i questions everything also.. and never have i heard anyone put the horses down themselves or say they are not pure bred Arabians..Just the SE label is the question...many of my best horses have this line.....Ken
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Tous crins
post May 10 2009, 04:38 AM
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QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 9 2009, 08:12 PM)
Sure Ken,

  I agree with you - no one ever put the actual horse's down, yet the horses's reputations have been tarnished due to people making claims that horse's are not SE even it that actual individual horse was top quality.  If you are an SE breeder and someone makes a claim that a horse is not SE that ruins the horse's reputation because some potential buyers will be afraid to have any horses with "questionable lines" in the pedigree.    In my opinion, when a top horse is overlooked simply because someone heard from some well known breeder that a horse is not pure.  I just find that case to be really unfortunate.

I have had people in some countries who tell me that they do not want any horses with certain horses in the pedigree.  They give me a long list of unacceptable lines and horses.  When I have asked why they do not like these lines they say it is because "many people over here don't want these lines".  They don't know or care why others don't want those lines, the fact is that since there is such prejudice in their community, they don't want to have to deal with limiting their market for future foals. 

I don't understand why it is that those who claimed that those lines were not SE were never required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt - their words and claims were enough for others to just follow.  And yet the burden of actual real proof was instead placed on those who had to defend these lines to the people who made these claims.  In our legal system - the burden of proof is always placed on the prosecutor not on the defense - so why in this case do we not require proof beyond reasonable doubt from those who claim the horses to be impure?  In fact I had jury duty last month and the defense never even testified because it was not the defense's job to defend, the burden of proof lies with the accuser (or in this case our District Attorney who was prosecuting that case).

Also I have always wondered - with all the SE horses that have been bred from the beginning of time - what are the odds that a non SE horse never got into the gene pool?  I mean I have the greatest respect for the Bedouins, but as they are only human, how do we know that one night a stallion from some non pure herd might have made his way over to some poor Bedoun's mare band?  We never question if this might have happened, so why is it that only particular lines are questioned so vigorously?  Why do we not ask for proof for every line that is not well documented?  This has happened to many people I have heard of - the stallion gets out and breeds a mare accidently.

I agree with you that many of the best horses do have this line - many of my favorites....

So as for what is the truth in regard to Exochorda, I do not feel that those who question the pedigree's purity have produced enough proof to prove impurity beyond a reasonable doubt and therefore she should be considered pure.  And I feel that those who have been forced to defend the pedigree have done more to prove purity then those who cast the questions.

One more thing I often think about - I believe it was Joe Ferriss who proved the purity of the Minstril - is that right?  I can't recall all the details - maybe I need to go read about that too, but I seem to remember him somehow proving that *Bahila was indeed pure (Minstril's dam).  Despite this proof - how many serious breeders who believed this line to be impure for many years changed their minds just because one day Joe found some very good evidence and in fact proved this?  My guess is that not many really changed their minds.  So this is why I say that even if the proof was staring at those who question these lines right in the face - they couldn't erase their feelings towards these lines after so many years of prejudice.  A reputation is easy to destroy and even if exhonorated with actual hard proof it is not easy to repair.

Do you remember the guy who was running for office in California who they accused of murdering Chaundra Levy - one of his interns?  His career was destroyed, his wife left him I think, even despite that years later they eventually found the real killer and he was proclaimed innocent.

Many people called Galileo insane for saying that the earth revolved around the sun. Now we can both look back and see how ignorant they really were.  Unfortunately,  there will always be bigots, who out of fear hurt people who try things that are different from what they would do.  But it is those who open their minds, who have the courage to be different, who actually make a difference in society and in breeding programs...

I appreciate all that you have said Ken - totally.  In reality, what I have posted is just me sharing my thoughts on this topic for once, as I do not think I ever posted about this before - even on that old Exochorda thread from last year, even though one of my best friends was vigorously defending Exochorda... I was busy and I wish I had said this sooner.

Many thanks for your respectful dialog.  I do appreciate this discussion with you and others.

Carol
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Carol

I totally agree with you!

Christine
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1rider
post May 10 2009, 04:52 AM
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Just a reminder there is no question of purity.....................and the other is she was never used by the RAS...still the things no one has answered is where she was bred/ foal and by who.. would love to see those things answered so it would clear everything up without doubt. i have looked at both sides and see not proof of either just the parents and a birthday that had to be interpreted.... I just want facts.. but there arent many.... so you must just except it or not. i know horses of EX and TM being exported to the middle east.. so if they like the horse and need it to compete they will buy sooner or later. I have seen that if they want i,t it wont matter...Ken
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carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 07:39 AM
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Hi Ken,

Okay - I hear what you are saying.... I am enjoying this discussion... Thanks for helping me with it... I hope it is okay for me to continue to "argue" the other side or for other explanations? I hope so... I know you are not really "arguing" with me - we are just having a good discussion on this topic...

Okay - so here goes....Would you like to know how many mares are here at my farm that there would be no records of them ever being "used"? There are logical explanations but if say 20 years went by and I was dead for some reason how could you know the reasons the mare was not used?

1) Example 1 : Makhnifique KA - I did use her. Her foal aborted at 8 months gestation so there will be no record I ever "used" her as a broodmare. If my vet were to move or retire how would you ever find any record that she was actually bred? There would be none that you could find. Is she pure? Absolutely - the purest and a great mare but you will never find records of me using her.

2) Example 2: OBrenna D - 12 years old... I love the mare. First foal born April 13, 2009. Foal was euthanized on April 14, 2009 at Texas A&M - It was a dummy foal - so it will not be registered - so it looks like she was never used. I do not know for sure where she was bred, or born. I would guess it would be in Michigan at the farm of her dam, but I can't be sure... They could have sent her somewhere else to foal out.

3) Example 3 - Bellisimo BCR - just 4 years old - no babies on the ground. Did I use him? Yes - but the first foal is not here yet - baby is due in June. If the baby lives - then you know I used him, if not? Maybe it looks like I never used him? I've never shown him either - just have not done that yet - mostly because I'm busy and have had alot going on over the past few years.

Now once again.... Lets pretend that the year is 2030. I have died, and my husband has also passed away by now. I am an only child, so there are no siblings for you to call even if they were still living. Now here is a question for you... A foal named Bellisimo BCR was born lets say in the year 2005. Can you tell anyone where are the records of where he was born? How about where he was bred? Heck - in all honesty lets not even fast forward to 2030 - lets make it today's year 2009. Now assume that the two people who delivered this foal named Bellisimo BCR (my husband and I delivered him) were killed in a car accident. No one else was in the barn but us that night so how do you know where he was born? I have two different farms, and use a 3rd farm in Fort Worth along with a vet in Weatherford, and one more in Austin... It could have been that he was bred in any of 4 different places and born in 2 or 3 different places - somewhere in Texas.

So tell me - where was Bellisimo BCR born? Where was he Bred? I assure you he is has no "questionable" horses in his pedigree, but can anyone tell where he was bred and born? And oh by the way - lets assume that following my husband and my's death that his only foal was aborted by the dam. You would think I never used him even though I did. The new owners of Bellisimo might have taken him and just used him for a personal riding horse and didn't even bother to register him in their name so you don't even know what ever happened to him. I have a nice friend named Guillermo who takes care of our horses when I'm out of town... He loves Bellisimo. He would love to have him and he wouldn't care if he was registered in his name either. Knowing Guillermo - he would probably leave Bellisimo as a stallion - breed him for his friends and never register any of the foals. You'd never now how to find Guillermo or Bellisimo again if he were not registered in Guillermo's name.

There are many SEs that exist which I couldn't tell you where they were born. For example my mare Bint Kohela has had 3 foals registered. They existed and they were SE. They are in the AHA database. I couldn't tell you where they were born or bred. I can't even tell you where they are now. How could I know that? I don't know the owners. I have even tried to find the owners of these foals as I would love to have another one of her foals. I can't find the original owners or breeders. The prior owners of her foals got a divorce and because the husband was mad he wouldn't give his wife the papers so the offspring are living probably somewhere but I have no idea where.... So I know they were born, bred, and registered, but I can't tell you where they were bred, born or where they are today. I don't even know if they are alive anymore.

So it seems to me there could be many many reasons (like the ones I showed above) for why no one knows where Exochorda was born or bred. And also there could be some logical explanation for why the RAS never used her. Maybe she was injured or sick for a period of time and couldn't be used.

Last month I went to visit a farm in southern CA just outside LA. The owner is a wonderful lady who has some mares with very precious bloodlines and many of the mares have never been used. You might think there was something wrong with them, but there isn't - other then that now they are older. The reason she never bred most of them is that her daughter died unexpectedly at the age of 17 and she lost her desire to breed anything. She was depressed.

I would love to know what was going on at the RAS at the time that Exochorda was there. Could it be they were tight on money and didn't breed or use every mare they had? How many people own horses they never use - they are "pasture pets". We all have big plans when we get horses, but I can tell you that I bought a mare in 2000 and didn't ever show her and only bred her for the first time last year... Yes shame on me - but you think you have plenty of time, and then the next thing you know - 8 years goes by...

So what I do not understand is why would someone question the mares status as SE just because we don't know where she was bred, or born, and because no one is sure of the exact birthday. I know of a good friend who bred a horse I bought. The horse has an "official" birthday - but its inaccurate. The reason is that his most beloved horse passed away and he didn't do anything for months. He was depressed. So some time the FOLLOWING year he registered this horse - I am not sure that he remembered the exact date the horse was actually born - if he did he would have registered the original date. If my friend had never registered the horse and then moved on and out of the SE world - who knows if you would have ever been able to figure out the date of foaling.

I know people who have been very big into SE horses and then suddenly didn't show up one year at the Egyptian Event - gave all their horses to their vet in Arkansas and just seemed to disappear. Who in the world could have ever predicted that would happen? Surely none of the owners of the horses who were expecting the farm to show up at the Event that year... I think this happened about 4 or 5 years ago in fact... Stange things happen all the time. I have learned not to be shocked by anything anymore as life is full of roadblocks and surprises you sometimes suddenly have to deal with. Sometimes it may take years to recover...

So again - I can think of many reasons why information about breeding location, birth location, birth date and even breeder's name could be lost. It could be that there were multiple owners for example. None of the missing data makes me think the horse is not SE, it makes me think that something happened around that date in the lives of the people who bred, foaled out, and initially owned the horse that caused the exact dates to be lost.

I am really curious to know why someone made such a leap in thinking to discredit this mare's heritage... and even more curious to know why other people went along with this thinking without asking the same kind of questions I have asked about in this post.

I thought of one possible thing that would explain this whole Exochorda mess and that is resentment, or fear of something. For example I have seen breeders put other programs down because they find it easier to discredit others programs rather then stand behind their own. It is so much easier to knock others then show the value of your own program - especially if in your heart you feel you are behind the eight ball so to speak. Think about it.... if someone has a bunch of average or even less then average horses, and they see another breeder breeding beautiful horses that people would probably prefer, how in the world would they compete with this? It would take years to raise the bar in their own program so perhaps it might just be easier to discredit the pedigree of the other program and scare people off so that the buyers will instead buy into their programs. Its lousy I know, but I happens today, so it probably happened years ago as well.

What would make me say a horse is not SE would be something like this:

A person who bred a mare stated that her sire was not SE or her dam was not SE. By stating I mean they registered the horse as being a non SE horse. But missing records alone or lack of evidence is not to me proof of anything other then missing info.

One thing we have now that helps to verify approximate breeding dates and pedigrees is the new Stallion Registration paperwork from AHA as well as the DNA being on file to verify parentage.

So - Ken - once again - I guess I come to the conclusion you did as well - you either believe or you don't, but I think that the simplest explanation is probably the most likely. For me it is easier to believe that the breeding and birth locations are not documented for the same reasons my own foals breeding and foaling locations are not documented.

It is alot more complex to conclude that there was a conspiracy to hide the heritage of the horse then just that there were not records. And again - why does Exochorda's pedigree get questioned so vigorously given how many other horses have this same missing data - including some of my own and I'm sure lots of other breeders....

I do wish there was some relative of the breeder of Exochorda who could vouch for her SE Status, however I would see no reason to conclude she was not SE just because we can't find any relatives anymore...

The fact that some have fought so hard to discredit this mare's SE status and not so many other horses with the same missing info, makes me wonder if there isn't some other reason they are doing this - why this horse? Why make such a huge effort to tarnish her birthright? Surely his must have made a few people wonder...

The absence of facts does not substantiate any theory - it proves only that there is a lack of data. To validate any theory or hypothesis in my opinion - you would need the facts to back up the hypothesis...

Thanks again,

Carol

ps: I'm exhausted and I can't even believe I'm up so late again so I think its time for me to stop being such a windbag... Thanks for listening to my questions, ideas and assumptions again - I appreciate your help.




QUOTE (1rider @ May 9 2009, 11:52 PM)
Just a reminder there is no question of purity.....................and the other  is she was never used by the RAS...still the things no one has answered is where she was bred/ foal and by who.. would love to see those things answered so it would clear everything up without doubt.  i have looked at both sides and see not proof of either just the parents and a birthday that had to be interpreted.... I just want facts..  but there arent many.... so you must just except it or not.  i know horses of EX and TM being exported to the middle east.. so if they like the horse and need it to compete they will buy sooner or later. I have seen that if they want i,t it wont matter...Ken
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Liz Salmon
post May 10 2009, 12:02 PM
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What a great epistle Carol !!!! You made some excellent points. When Rhonda and I went to Dubai recently, we took Joe Ferris's article with us and convinced our client to accept horses with The Minstril bloodlines and not because we own those lines—we don't, but just wanted some justice for those that do to make it easier for their sales.
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Lil Buddha
post May 10 2009, 01:13 PM
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*sigh*

my head hurts and my hair is on fire...another *Exochorda topic.

I am proud that my thoughts and ideas, and even my questions are my own and that never, will I be manipulated by someone else.

Like Kelly said,
QUOTE
Exochorda is SE, and always has been. She's been on the root list of TPS SE since the beginning. All else is just speculation.


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KGH
post May 10 2009, 01:37 PM
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Somebody get this man some water!

Exochorda is SE, and always has been. She's been on the root list of TPS SE since the beginning. All else is just speculation.

Kelly
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Liz Salmon
post May 10 2009, 01:46 PM
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With that said from KGH, doesn't everyone think this has been hashed out to death—time for closure ?
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Al Sahra Arabian...
post May 10 2009, 01:57 PM
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Thank you Carol, Liz and everyone else for this discussion. It makes this forum a fun and interesting place to visit.

With regard to "not using mares"--or other horses--many newcomers weren't around after the tax laws changed in 1986. Many good horses (bioth stallions and mares) were lost or not used for many years--until about 1996 or 1997. That's when the same laws changed in Canada. When that happened, horses that had been valued at $30,000 and up were dumped on the market for $300-$1000. I went to the Montebello sales and bought some of them!

Newcomers don't realize that from 1997 and for 2-3 years after that, you didn't breed your horses and incur the expense of producing a foal when your prospective buyers could buy a breeding age Egyptian Prince daughter, a Prince Fa Moniet daughter, etc., for as little as $1000 to $2000! So, I had (and still have) maiden mares that are older, because I just held on as best I could to my horses until market conditions changed again. For all of you new breeders out there--can you imagine a market crash of horses TWICE in about 10-12 years? Well, that is what happened!

So Carols's explanation about "why wasn't Exochorda (or any other mare or stallion) used is a valid one. New breeders need to do their own independent study of articles written by people WITHOUT AN AGENDA, and not just listen to self-serving "experts" and breeders in some parts of the world who have an agenda to sell only their bloodlines and to try to discredit others while doing so.

Joe Ferriss has said before that if you REALLY wanted to discredit bloodlines, there are horses that are in EVERY LIVING STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN EVERYWHERE that can be questioned. Look at all of the pedigrees--they all go to "desert bred" at some point!!! Let's face it--everytime a horses is wrongfully discredited, our already limited gene pool is effected. Thank you, Joe, Caroll, Liz, and everyone else out there who is SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT!

Sue
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