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> Q. Is Exochorda Pure Arabian Mare?
MHuprich
post May 10 2009, 02:11 PM
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The term "Straight Egyptian" is one that is defined by the Pyramid Society. As such, they also are the governing body to list what horses they include in the definition, and what horses they exclude from the definition.

Many other groups have created their own defined terms and therefore also have the ability to clarify the definition, and list what horses are included, or excluded from the definition. Examples include Al Khamsa, Sheykh Obeyd, Asil, and so on.

No everyone has to agree with the individual definitions, but these groups have all spent lots of time and effort in trying to be clear what the guiding lights were behind each of the clauses in the definitions. As we know, several changes have been made as new information has been found. However, the final decision belongs to the groups that defined the terms and the horses that were included in the terms.

Everyone is, of course, welcome to exclude horses they don't like from their own programs, or horses that don't fit in with their own programs even if they liked them. No one is arguing about personal choices breeders make in their own programs.
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sarri
post May 10 2009, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 08:39 AM)
Hi Ken,




So tell me - where was Bellisimo BCR born?  Where was he Bred?  e.



Carol

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k to answer your quesirton if you both passed away and your vet moved you still have record of registration with aha so that example kid of doesn't work but i do understand what you are trying to say now if Aha went out of business on top of you passing away then that would be a different story biggrin.gif
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carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 02:36 PM
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Liz,

That is great, but I still think that long time breeders who have had this prejudice told to them for many years will not accept the fairly proof from Joe Ferris after they have been pounded for many years about the questionability of this pedigree. The reason your client was open minded is that he is just getting started I believe right? He asked you and Rhonda to go help him to set up his brand new program. I hope this man is strong and will be able to maintain his open mindedness about this.

Carol

QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ May 10 2009, 07:02 AM)
What a great epistle Carol !!!! You made some excellent points. When Rhonda and I went to Dubai recently, we took Joe Ferris's article with us and convinced our client to accept horses  with The Minstril bloodlines and not because we own those lines—we don't, but just wanted some justice for those that do to make it easier for their sales.
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carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 02:53 PM
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Hi Sarry,

I do not think that it says on the AHA records where Bellisimo was born. Here are the answers in case you want to know to see what I'm saying...

Bellisimo BCR was conceived at Kehilan Arabians at 1059 FM 1187 West, Fort Worth, TX. He was born at one of our farms (the original one in Austin at 14800 Bear Creek Pass, Austin TX). Of course that is no longer the address of our farm. I do not know how anyone could know where he was born exactly. They might know my mailing address at that time but not where the horse would be foaled out. I have a mare due the first two weeks in June. That baby will be born at a foaling facility in Houston. I actually don't even know the address there yet myself. The reason for her being foaled out in Houston is that I bought the mare from a client forgetting that she was due the week of the Egyptian Event. Which by the way was the same time that Bellisimo was born. I had to fly home after only being there 2 days from the EE to meet my mare as I was afraid she might foal without me there and my husband might need help.

Now yes true - If AHA went out of business (which quite honestly wouldn't shock me totally as PAHR did) we would have possibly lost the records. In this case would would have to fly to Aurora, Colorado and did through all the records if they even keep physical records on file... I'll bet they have converted to electronic archives by now but am not sure.

Carol

QUOTE (sarri @ May 10 2009, 09:14 AM)
k to answer your quesirton  if you both passed away  and your vet moved  you still have record of registration with aha so that example  kid of doesn't work but i do understand what you are trying to say now if  Aha went out of business on top of you  passing away then that would be a different story  biggrin.gif
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sarri
post May 10 2009, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 03:53 PM)
Hi Sarry,

I do not think that it says on the AHA records where Bellisimo was born.   Here are the answers in case you want to know to see what I'm saying...

Bellisimo BCR was conceived at Kehilan Arabians at 1059 FM 1187 West, Fort Worth, TX.  He was born at one of our farms (the original one in Austin at 14800 Bear Creek Pass, Austin TX).  Of course that is no longer the address of our farm.  I do not know how anyone could know where he was born exactly.  They might know my mailing address at that time but not where the horse would be foaled out.  I have a mare due the first two weeks in June.  That baby will be born at a foaling facility in Houston.  I actually don't even know the address there yet myself.  The reason for her being foaled out in Houston is that I bought the mare from a client forgetting that she was due the week of the Egyptian Event.  Which by the way was the same time that Bellisimo was born.  I had to fly home after only being there 2 days from the EE to meet my mare as I was afraid she might foal without me there and my husband might need help.

Now yes true - If AHA went out of business (which quite honestly wouldn't shock me totally as PAHR did) we would have possibly lost the records.  In this case would would have to fly to Aurora, Colorado and did through all the records if they even keep physical records on file... I'll bet they have converted to electronic archives by now but am not sure.

Carol
*



true physical birth would be hard to trace how ever it would be easier to asses because they have year of birth on file as well as the recorded owners name so if you are his owner from birth then it would be easy to deduct that he was born at your farm .. wouldn't it?
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carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 03:33 PM
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Liz,

I don't think its time for closure yet - lets let it run until everyone stops posting anymore. I have truly enjoyed this discussion and thank Ken sincerely for going back and forth with me a little. If everyone thinks the same thing then someone is not thinking. I think that there will always be new people who will ask these honest questions, and they deserve to hear the different perspectives from different people such as myself who has never posted about this before until last night.

And I also really appreciate Ken allowing me to debate with him. He is clearly open minded as he owns these lines and we are both seeing the same thing - the truth and more answers to help reveal the more facts. I don't own any Exochorda lines but I honestly just like the discovery that can be revealed through a good debate or discussion amongst breeders and other experts like Ken, me, Kelly, Melissa, you and the rest of the people who have insights to contribute.

This kind of questioning and exploration is to me much like doing interviews for a book or an interview. I saw a movie the other night about a Britsh media person who interviewed Richard Nixon after he resigned under the disgrace of the Watergate scandal. Though many people had gone over the Watergate story many times and it had totally been hashed out - this British media guy was able to uncover a new fact that was overlooked and that one or actually two facts made all the difference between Richard Nixon admitting his mistake or just justifying his actions.... How ironic that in all of America no one seemed to pay much attention to this little detail, but an outsider from England who came at it from a different perspective was able to uncover something that made all the difference. Liz - I was a little kid at the time and so I missed that interview back then, but being as you are British, I'll bet you know who that media guy is that I am referring to who uncovered the new important facts through new research at the archives in some library in Washington, DC. He was kind of a famous talk show host like Diane Sawyer or Barbara Walters, but people didn't take him to be a serious reporter really I don't think.

If no one asks these hard questions from new perspectives, and no one has the courage to speak about it or debate it, or try to really get to the bottom of the issue from all perspectives then we are all just acting like mushrooms - in the dark and covered in cow patties. Not a pretty sight at all.

Really - call me a wierdo, but I think this is fun trying to figure out this Exochorda puzzle - like solving a case, like the game of "Clue". I'm not in any way attached to the issue so that is why I'm really not emotionally involved - it doesn't matter to me either way, but it is interesting. It does however matter to the breed overall since so many horses could be excluded from our gene pool if we do not solve the puzzle.

I think the most important thing is that we ask the hard questions, do not put all long term breeders on pedistals for like parents they are only human. And although I do feel long term breeders who have been dedicated to the breed deserve our honor and respect - true dedication to the breed means being dedicated to the truth. This should apply not just to pedigree authenticity in my opinion but also to breeding results. If we really love the breed deeply - we should be brutally honest with ourselves about all the good and bad breeding results. Its not easy to do sometimes (not for me either), but to make progress overall I think we need to share all of our breeding discoveries and results to help others gain the knowledge to breed even better horses.

Fake photos of horses, plastic surgery, and all the the stupid things people do to hide the truth doesn't advance our cause as breeders.

Let me also tell you about a policy that I really love... I love that in some countries in the Middle East, breeding is not about the money. They do not charge for stud fees. The reason is that they consider it wrong to charge for the breeding of that animals, and the result is that people are able to breed to the best horses possible. I really feel that this is a group of people who are truly dedicated to the future of the breed. Yes they may charge for the horses they produce, but not for the stud fees.

How sad it is here in our culture that if you do not charge a stud fee or you have a very low stud fee that people perceive the stallion must not be of value.... Quality of a stallion in my opinion should not be about the price of a stud fee, it should be about the foals produced and what that are and what they can do. And in fact I know of many stallion who do not look impressive themselves have little or NO marketing, don't even have decent photos, but are GREAT producers. I can think of horses like that all day long such as The Source CC. When is the last time that someone was smart enough to breed to that horse? Or how about Vanylla Ice? Or how about Roger Bell's Baarez son? Or Caledonia's Halim Shah son?

There are amazing horses out there. I wish that someone could go out there and write a book about all the hidden gems who could totally advance the breed if only people were smart enough to use them or even were aware of them. Maybe I should write a book of research - wouldn't that be fun? I would ask experts to help me like Arlene Magid and Judy Guess, and maybe Steve Diamond.

Boy oh boy - got off on a tangent again - sorry about the new epistle ... got to go out and work my stallions now - trying to put weight and condition on them so they can compete with some of the stallions in the show ring :-)

Thanks all for allowing me to blabber on again....

Carol

QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ May 10 2009, 08:46 AM)
With that said from KGH, doesn't everyone think this has been hashed out to death—time for closure ?
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carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 03:35 PM
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Not if I used a breeding facility not at my farm... biggrin.gif

QUOTE (sarri @ May 10 2009, 10:24 AM)
true physical birth would be hard to trace how ever it would be easier to asses because they have year of birth on file as well as  the recorded owners name so if you are his owner from birth then it would be easy to deduct that he was born  at your farm .. wouldn't it?
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sarri
post May 10 2009, 03:42 PM
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QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 04:35 PM)
Not if I used a breeding facility not at my farm...  biggrin.gif
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never mind i'm confoozling myself
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sarri
post May 10 2009, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 04:33 PM)
Liz,

I don't think its time for closure yet - lets let it run until everyone stops posting anymore.  I have truly enjoyed this discussion and thank Ken sincerely for going back and forth with me a little.  If everyone thinks the same thing then someone is not thinking.  I think that there will always be new people who will ask these honest questions, and they deserve to hear the different perspectives from different people such as myself who has never posted about this before until last night. 

And I also really appreciate Ken allowing me to debate  with him.  He is clearly open minded as he owns these lines and we are both seeing the same thing - the truth and more answers to help reveal the more facts.  I don't own any Exochorda lines but I honestly just like the discovery that can be revealed through a good debate or discussion amongst breeders and other experts like Ken, me, Kelly, Melissa, you and the rest of the people who have insights to contribute. 

This kind of questioning and exploration is to me much like doing interviews for a book or an interview.  I saw a movie the other night about a Britsh media person who interviewed Richard Nixon after he resigned under the disgrace of the Watergate scandal.  Though many people had gone over the Watergate story many times and it had totally been hashed out - this British media guy was able to uncover a new fact that was overlooked and that one or actually two facts made all the difference between Richard Nixon admitting his mistake or just justifying his actions.... How ironic that in all of America no one seemed to pay much attention to this little detail, but an outsider from England who came at it from a different perspective was able to uncover something that made all the difference.  Liz - I was a little kid at the time and so I missed that interview back then, but being as you are British, I'll bet you know who that media guy is that I am referring to who uncovered the new important facts through new research at the archives in some library in Washington, DC.  He was kind of a famous talk show host like Diane Sawyer or Barbara Walters, but people didn't take him to be a serious reporter really I don't think.

If no one asks these hard questions from new perspectives, and no one has the courage to speak about it or debate it, or try to really get to the bottom of the issue from all perspectives then we are all just acting like mushrooms - in the dark and covered in cow patties.  Not a pretty sight at all.

Really - call me a wierdo, but I think this is fun trying to figure out this Exochorda puzzle - like solving a case, like the game of "Clue".  I'm not in any way attached to the issue so that is why I'm really not emotionally involved - it doesn't matter to me either way, but it is interesting.  It does however matter to the breed overall since so many horses could be excluded from our gene pool if we do not solve the puzzle.

I think the most important thing is that we ask the hard questions, do not put all long term breeders on pedistals for like parents they are only human.  And although I do feel long term breeders who have been dedicated to the breed deserve our honor and respect - true dedication to the breed means being dedicated to the truth.  This should apply not just to pedigree authenticity in my opinion but also to breeding results.  If we really love the breed deeply - we should be brutally honest with ourselves about all the good and bad breeding results.  Its not easy to do sometimes (not for me either), but to make progress overall I think we need to share all of our breeding discoveries and results to help others gain the knowledge to breed even better horses.

Fake photos of horses, plastic surgery, and all the the stupid things people do to hide the truth doesn't advance our cause as breeders.

Let me also tell you about a policy that I really love... I love that in some countries in the Middle East, breeding is not about the money.  They do not charge for stud fees.  The reason is that they consider it wrong to charge for the breeding of that animals, and the result is that people are able to breed to the best horses possible.  I really feel that this is a group of people who are truly dedicated to the future of the breed.  Yes they may charge for the horses they produce, but not for the stud fees. 

How sad it is here in our culture that if you do not charge a stud fee or you have a very low stud fee that people perceive the stallion must not be of value.... Quality of a stallion in my opinion should not be about the price of a stud fee, it should be about the foals produced and what that are and what they can do.  And in fact I know of many stallion who do not look impressive themselves have little or NO marketing, don't even have decent photos, but are GREAT producers.  I can think of horses like that all day long such as The Source CC.  When is the last time that someone was smart enough to breed to that horse?  Or how about Vanylla Ice?  Or how about Roger Bell's Baarez son?  Or Caledonia's Halim Shah son?

There are amazing horses out there.  I wish that someone could go out there and write a book about all the hidden gems who could totally advance the breed if only people were smart enough to use them or even were aware of them.  Maybe I should write a book of research - wouldn't that be fun?  I would ask experts to help me like Arlene Magid and Judy Guess, and maybe Steve Diamond.

Boy oh boy - got off on a tangent again - sorry about the new epistle ... got to go out and work my stallions now - trying to put weight and condition on them so they can compete with some of the stallions in the show ring :-)

Thanks all for allowing me to blabber on again....

Carol
*

sorry am bad but couldn't resist so are you going to be the trend setter and stand your stallions for free Carol .. ph34r.gif biggrin.gif
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Liz Salmon
post May 10 2009, 03:45 PM
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Yes, Carol, David Frost was a household name in the UK and had his own news programme. I haven't seen the movie as yet. It is true that other nationalities often do have a different perspective on subjects. I still think like a Brit and am more European in my thinking than American and tend to see things a bit differently very often. It's like having an complete over view of the American scene, particularly with politics.

You are right, there may be people who have not read all the aspects and of this Excordia discussion. The whole Minstril thing was started from politics I'm pretty convinced.
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carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 05:27 PM
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Liz,

I am not an expert in any way, however it is my guess that it was politically motivated as well. If someone told me I was wrong and could prove it I would keep an open mind to it... Right now this is my best "guess" since I do not know of what the evidence is that exists to say Bahila (Minstril's dam) was not pure. As far as I know that was proven to be false and Joe Ferris found her to be pure SE. So I can only assume that the big mess as either politically motivated, OR maybe someone just make a mistake that people believed and it was passed on... It could have even just been by accident for all I know.

The other thing is that some folks bred poor examples of the lines by ignoring phenotype and looking only at pedigrees which to me is a huge mistake. But maybe the people didn't know what good conformation is. I would say that you are extremely good at judging conformation, but not everyone is. This is really an important thing to learn..

Carol

QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ May 10 2009, 10:45 AM)
Yes, Carol, David Frost was a household name in the UK and had his own news programme. I haven't seen the movie as yet. It is true that other nationalities often do have a different perspective on subjects. I still think like a Brit and am more European in my thinking than American and tend to see things a bit differently very often. It's like having an complete over view of the American scene, particularly with politics.

You are right, there may be people who have not read all the aspects and of this Excordia discussion. The whole Minstril thing was started from politics I'm pretty convinced.
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carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 05:52 PM
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Well let me put it this way.... I wouldn't give a free breeding to someone with a mare that had not produced well with a stallion of equal quality to my own, or who had conformation or phenotype that wouldn't be likely to produce a quality foal with my stallion. I would rather refer them to a stallion that would be a better match for that mare. If my goal is to help produce good foals that wouldn't make sense.

But if someone had an exceptional mare who had produced well with another stallion of similiar quality, or even it the mare produced no foals but was a high quality mare, then yes I would give a free breeding to my stallion/s. The people in the middle east do not give breedings to every mare owner if they do not like the mare - which I also think is a good thing.

In fact I have heard that what some of the people do in Saudi is that they give a free breeding, and the mare owner does something nice for them - gives them a nice gift or something as a "thank you". I think this is really nice and also builds friendships more so then money. In this economy - there are some small breeders out there who have really exceptional mares but just can't afford a $5,000 stud fee when they can buy a mature quality mare (if they look long and hard enough) these days for $15,000 only due to the fact that people are hurting right now with our terrible economy. By the time you are done with all the breeding fees and foaling fees to your vet (who has probably raised their fees and tightened extending credit) you are up to about $7,500 (with the $5K stud fee) and if you end up with a colt who is not top quality - you have a gelding you would not be able to sell for that much. So where is the incentive to pay such a stud fee right now? If you have the money and you want to breed to a horse - then yes you pay the fee, but that is only a few people right now - maybe 1 or 2% of our population has much descretionary money to spend right now.

So I would be open to a much reduced stud fee or no stud fee for mare owners with very high quality mares, and I think that most serious breeders would do that same. They might not say that on SE.com, they may say "hey don't share this with anyone but I'll give you this stud fee for your top mare...", but I think serious breeders who care about producing quality foals more then money would do this.

In fact I have been given free breedings to very nice stallions for use on my best mares, so I would be willing to pass it on when appropriate for the right mare yes. In truth, I have felt such gratitude to these stallion owners that I would do anything for them and in end would have probably paid for the breeding giving them free photos or other help I could provide.

I don't think that makes me a trend setter - I'll bet more people might be doing that but they just may not discuss it online.

And one more thing... It is so sad to see some high quality stallions out there not being used because people can't afford the stud fees. There are several stallions that I really like who no one is using. As a result the stallion owners become disheartened and less and less enthused. But what is you see a super baby produced by your stallion - I mean a SUPER baby... Would you still be sad that you didn't charge for this breeding fee, or would you not be over the moon about what you stallion was able to be produced?

I hope that answers the question :-)

Carol



QUOTE (sarri @ May 10 2009, 10:44 AM)
sorry am bad but couldn't resist so are you  going to be the trend setter and stand your stallions for free Carol ..  ph34r.gif  biggrin.gif
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sarri
post May 10 2009, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 06:52 PM)
Well let me put it this way.... I wouldn't give a free breeding to someone with a mare that had not produced well with a stallion of equal quality to my own, or who had conformation or phenotype that wouldn't be likely to produce a quality foal with my stallion.  I would rather refer them to a stallion that would be a better match for that mare.  If my goal is to help produce good foals that wouldn't make sense.

But if someone had an exceptional mare who had produced well with another stallion of similiar quality, or even it the mare produced no foals but was a high quality mare, then yes I would give a free breeding to my stallion/s.  The people in the middle east do not give breedings to every mare owner if they do not like the mare - which I also think is a good thing.

In fact I have heard that what some of the people do in Saudi is that they give a free breeding, and the mare owner does something nice for them - gives them a nice gift or something as a "thank you".  I think this is really nice and also builds friendships more so then money.  In this economy - there are some small breeders out there who have really exceptional mares but just can't afford a $5,000 stud fee when they can buy a mature quality mare (if they look long and hard enough) these days for $15,000 only due to the fact that people are hurting right now with our terrible economy.  By the time you are done with all the breeding fees and foaling fees to your vet (who has probably raised their fees and tightened extending credit) you are up to about $7,500 (with the $5K stud fee) and if you end up with a colt who is not top quality - you have a gelding you would not be able to sell for that much.  So where is the incentive to pay such a stud fee right now?  If you have the money and you want to breed to a horse - then yes you pay the fee, but that is only a few people right now - maybe 1 or 2% of our population has much descretionary money to spend right now.

So I would be open to a much reduced stud fee or no stud fee for mare owners with very high quality mares, and I think that most serious breeders would do that same.  They might not say that on SE.com, they may say "hey don't share this with anyone but I'll give you this stud fee for your top mare...", but I think serious breeders who care about producing quality foals more then money would do this.

In fact I have been given free breedings to very nice stallions for use on my best mares, so I would be willing to pass it on when appropriate for the right mare yes.  In truth, I have felt such gratitude to these stallion owners that I would do anything for them and in end would have probably paid for the breeding giving them free photos or other help I could provide.

I don't think that makes me a trend setter - I'll bet more people might be doing that but they just may not discuss it online.

And one more thing... It is so sad to see some high quality stallions out there not being used because people can't afford the stud fees.  There are several stallions that I really like who no one is using.  As a result the stallion owners become disheartened and less and less enthused.  But what is you see a super baby produced by your stallion - I mean a SUPER baby... Would you still be sad that you didn't charge for this breeding fee, or would you not be over the moon about what you stallion was able to be produced?

I hope that answers the question  :-)

Carol
*
carol


my comment was tongue and cheek kind of a comment not a serious one i was just joshin and i admire any one who would honestly say hey my stallion is not for your mare but i know of a stallion that is .. unfortunately in north america you would be trend setter and in a good way and there are several stallions i would love to breed to but the fees are so high i cannot afford them so i understand
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KGH
post May 10 2009, 06:13 PM
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Sarri,
There was a time when breeders would often refer to other stallions. The pupose was entirely to see the best foals produced for the betterment of all of SE.
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carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 06:16 PM
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Sarri,

I should have known you were just kidding, but I was in my "serious mode" and didn't realize.

I have two types of stallions who are very different. One is very typey with huge eyes and a great hip great bone and feet and tail carriage. He is also fairly tall as SE's go. He has a great pedigree (which of course is only part of the puzzle). The horse has a super dispostion too. If you like those things - this might be a good horse for some mares who need type, height, more substance. If I were to fault him I'd say I'd like a shorter head and a smaller muzzle. I wouldn't breed him to a long headed mare with longer ears.

My other stallion has tiny ears and huge eyes but I wish he was more exotic in the head (like the other stallion is). On the other had he has a short head with an amazing neck and great body and movement. If you have a typey mare who had long ears and a body that needs work (e.g. stretch, better hip, short back, and a better neck with more hook and a nice clean throatlatch) then I would recommend this stallion for sure. If I could breed one stallion to the other - I think I'd be very pleased with the results but for now I will have to wait until I have more babies on the ground to cross the lines and see if this works.

As for sending a breeder down the road, if someone breeds to my stallion and gets a marginal baby - that doesn't help me much with stallion promotion - in fact the opposite happens.. Word of mouth is the strongest form of marketing in my opinion....

Carol

QUOTE (sarri @ May 10 2009, 01:06 PM)
carol
my comment was tongue and cheek kind of a comment    not a serious one  i was just joshin      and i admire any one who would honestly say hey my stallion is not for your mare but i know of a stallion that is .. unfortunately in north america you would be trend setter and in a good way and there are several stallions i would love to breed to but the fees are so high i cannot afford them so i understand
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