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> Q. Is Exochorda Pure Arabian Mare?
carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 06:27 PM
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Well this is true... Kelly I think you may have lowered Alaa Jabaar's stud fee too? Very smart of you. This stallion is one of the few in the US with the Nagel bloodlines. He has a tremendously exotic head and cute ears. I'd breed him to a mare with height, and a rock solid body only. I would think that you could do alot with Imdal and Sameh bred lines with this stallion. In fact - Some of the Desperado bred mares I've seen have good bodies but fairly straight profiles in the head - I would think this might be a good cross... but I guess you might want to ask Jerel Kerby to see if it worked for him....

Imagine if just for 6 months every breeding farm would agree to offer free breedings to anyone who asked (just for 6 months). It would be a neat experiment to see what kind of foals could be produced and also it probably would stimulate more people to breed.... Not that is my idea of a stimulus package that would actually work!!! Or if every farm would even consider giving a buy one get one free deal - that would also help. Vets would make more money, the US would perhaps be able to produce more quality foals to replace the many that have had to be sold overseas due to our bad economy and a few stallions might actually get to be used more before they die.

Is this wild thinking? Probably, but I love the idea of getting more people to think of solutions. Maybe my ideas are not good ones and someone can come up with better ideas to promote more good horses to be bred.

I like the idea of coming up with a few wild ideas... I feel bad we have digressed a bit from the subject of Exochorda though.

Carol

QUOTE (KGH @ May 10 2009, 01:13 PM)
Sarri,
There was a time when breeders would often refer to other stallions. The pupose was entirely to see the best foals produced for the betterment of all of SE.
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KGH
post May 10 2009, 06:49 PM
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Carol
Many stallion owners are turning away from putting their stallions at stud. Too many colts out there !!
The economy is bad. Producing more horses at this time for free reminds me of when the pres of AHA said..breed every mare. wink.gif
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sarri
post May 10 2009, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE (KGH @ May 10 2009, 07:13 PM)
Sarri,
There was a time when breeders would often refer to other stallions. The pupose was entirely to see the best foals produced for the betterment of all of SE.
*

yes operative words used to be .. i remember reading about gainey and cmar and al marah programs where they would swap stallions or mares between them .. old timers sure knew how to do it .. now not all but allot think of nothing but how to make money
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carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 07:31 PM
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Well I think swapping is a great plan... and a good way to try some new blood in a program...

QUOTE (sarri @ May 10 2009, 01:55 PM)
yes operative words used to be .. i remember reading about gainey and cmar and al marah programs  where they would swap stallions or mares between them  .. old timers sure knew how to do it .. now  not all but allot  think of nothing but how to make money
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carolmaginn
post May 10 2009, 07:34 PM
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Hey I currently maintain the Sheyk Obeyd website. I didn't create it but I maintain it and so I read all the info on that site.

If anyone would like to learn more about the history of Exochorda there is a wonderful article on there called "The Little Bride *Exochorda" which is very educational in my opinion... You can google that title and it will be the first link that pops up....

Thanks,

Carol
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Solita
post May 10 2009, 09:17 PM
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I love your way of thinking Carol biggrin.gif

QUOTE (carolmaginn @ May 10 2009, 07:27 PM)
Imagine if just for 6 months every breeding farm would agree to offer free breedings to anyone who asked (just for 6 months).  It would be a neat experiment to see what kind of foals could be produced and also it probably would stimulate more people to breed.... Not that is my idea of a stimulus package that would actually work!!!  Or if every farm would even consider giving a buy one get one free deal - that would also help.  Vets would make more money, the US would perhaps be able to produce more quality foals to replace the many that have had to be sold overseas due to our bad economy and a few stallions might actually get to be used more before they die. 

Is this wild thinking?  Probably, but I love the idea of getting more people to think of solutions.  Maybe my ideas are not good ones and someone can come up with better ideas to promote more good horses to be bred.

Carol
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 11 2009, 01:20 AM
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Dear Carol and All,
I swore never to get into an Internet debate on this topic again, and I am not going to do so now, but I think that Carol's and Liz's comments are outstanding and merit a long, hard look. For those who may not be new to this topic, here are a couple of points to consider:

1. With regard to the circumstances of lost breeder records in Egypt during the first half of the 1900's and before: We cannot apply the same logic and assumptions which would be appropriate today in this event -- there would not likely be a second set of records, and probably no official records. There was NO general stud book, no Registry, no government control or oversight of private breeders or their records in Egypt during that time. If a breeder's records were lost or destroyed...that was pretty much it, except for the possibility that there may be an overlapping of documentation somewhere along the line (such as export documents, racing information, etc).

2. The stud records of Prince Kemal El Dine, the President of the RAS and a private breeder during the early part of the 1900's, have been lost or destroyed. As of today, as far as anyone knows...they don't exist. We only have records compiled through anecdotal means, such as letters from visitors, etc, and the kinds of overlapping documentation which I have mentioned. One such record is a letter which was written by a visitor to the farm of Kamel El Dine, in which he cites the existence there of many "unnamed" or "unknown" horses -- at least to him. In his outstanding article, "Rustem in Retrospect" (Khamsat Vol. 12, No.1), Joe Ferriss states: "I thought it would be interesting to try to document all known Al Khamsa get of Rustem (*Astraled by Ridaa). Using sources such as: Vol. II of AHS stud book, Hansi Heck-Melnyk's Straight Egyptian Index, Al Khamsa Arabians LL, and the 1932 letter to W.R. Brown published in Khamsat Vol. 4, No. 3, courtesy of Carol Lyons, I was able to come up with a composite list of 34 get of Rustem. In checking the RAS Stud book Vol I, I found that of those get produced in Egypt (and there may be others not documented) very few appear in any official records. A number of them are properly photographed or identified by Jack Humphrey in 1932 in Egypt while visiting Prince Kemal El Dine. Some had no names. Three of the dams of these Rustem get are not identified in any stud book or official record with ancestry, strain, breeders ect. recorded.--- these being Nizma, Rizkia and Hasni Hegazia...ultimately only the Prince knows who these mares are. But I have no reason NOT to think of them as Egyptian Arabian horses. This is but one example of what we have to constantly deal with in exploring the details of past ancestry".

3. During our visit to Egypt two years ago, Marilyn Lang and I were told by authorities at the EAO that most of the actual records of Dr. Branch, the Director of horse breeding operations at the RAS and mentor/breeding consultant to both Prince Kemal El Dine and Prince Mohamed Aly, were lost in the early 1930's. What is known of the early breeding activities at the RAS was recreated from notes and memory by Dr. Ashoub over a decade after Dr. Branch had retired from his post.

4. There is no PROOF of purity (or of SE qualification) for ANY SE ancestor -- bar none. The only element upon which we can rely is reasonable evidence. PURITY is improvable for any horse born prior to DNA testing -- and even the "absolute" concept of DNA testing can be challenged to some degree. I harken back to the Al Khamsa definition of purity, which leaves enough wiggle room necessary to allow for the reality of "non-proof", the best and most honest means of approaching this issue.

5. There is currently far MORE evidence available for Leila II (*Exochorda) regarding her place of birth, her birth date and the names and provenance of her parents than MANY very famous and popular ancestors, including but by no means limited to, El Dere -- whose purity and qualifications as a SE I do not doubt for one second. El Dere is an excellent example because of his familiarity and impact on the SE Arabian bloodlines -- we all realize the strength of his blood within the SE population. However, he is only one of countless ancestors who could be singled out as "questionable" according to the very same criteria as some others have been...but are curiously avoided and/or defended. Its simply a matter of an illogical and unethical double standard.

6. There is very strong and mounting evidence to support the belief that Leila II was bred and/or raised by Prince Kemal El Din (the cousin to Prince Mohamed Aly and then the President of the RAS) -- and at this time, there is no evidence at all to prove that this is not the case. There is ZERO evidence to support any idea that the ancestry or qualifications of Leila II are any more "questionable" than any other Straight Egyptian Arabian horse. Not even one iota...never has been.

7. It is true that there have been very damaging rumors planted and circulated to imply impurity or lack of provenance in the pedigrees of some of the greatest bloodlines the SE community has ever known. I believe very strongly that this is no accident. Think about it...who has ever bothered to target bloodlines that weren't gaining success? It is easy to promote the "purest of the pure" label stuck on the rumps of one's own breeding animals by simply pointing out whatever holes exist in "the other guys" horse's pedigrees -- while absolutely ignoring the same (or worse) holes which exist in the ancestry of one's own herd. What easier way to bring down a competitor's breeding program or to devaluate a competitors produce? And it has always worked like a charm. Why? Because the people who perpetrate these rumors DEPEND upon the lack of knowledge of others.
To have knowledge is to be empowered.
Caryn Rogosky
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1rider
post May 11 2009, 04:23 AM
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7. It is true that there have been very damaging rumors planted and circulated to imply impurity or lack of provenance in the pedigrees of some of the greatest bloodlines the SE community has ever known. I believe very strongly that this is no accident. Think about it...who has ever bothered to target bloodlines that weren't gaining success? It is easy to promote the "purest of the pure" label stuck on the rumps of one's own breeding animals by simply pointing out whatever holes exist in "the other guys" horse's pedigrees -- while absolutely ignoring the same (or worse) holes which exist in the ancestry of one's own herd. What easier way to bring down a competitor's breeding program or to devaluate a competitors produce? And it has always worked like a charm. Why? Because the people who perpetrate these rumors DEPEND upon the lack of knowledge of others.
To have knowledge is to be empowered.
Caryn Rogosky
...Why cant it be simple question and research... Still never heard any one put this horses type , conformation or quality put down.... old resentment keeps clouding these subjects...the lack of knowledge about horses has been the biggest money maker in this industry, mostly by the halter industry..... Ken
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carolmaginn
post May 11 2009, 04:52 AM
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Ken,

It really doesn't matter that no one has put down the type, conformation or quality of the horse. Casting doubt on a SE horse's pedigree and suggesting that is has questionable heritage is what destroys the reputation of those lines. In fact I would say that because the horses were of higher quality in terms of conformation and type - the only way to compete was to create fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) around the horse's pedigree.

I swear to you that I have no old resentment. I don't have these lines and I respect everyone involved here for the contributions they have made to the breed.

I totally agree with you that the biggest money maker has been lack of knowledge. One more thing I want you to know. The conclusions I have drawn are my own. They are not made because of any influence of people I know and respect. In fact I really do respect all of the people who have discussed this topic from both sides for what they have given to the breed - but I still have to form my own personal conclusion.

I want you to know that I am not a sheep just following some person who may have a personal agenda.

That is what I want for all of us - not to be sheep or those little animals that follow the leader off the cliff and drown because they can't think for themselves or see the results of going down that path (lemmons I think they are called).

Lets debate and discuss and use the research and fact as you said... But I do think that it is a fact that people sometimes discredit others when the feel insecure. I hate to say it but its almost like thing people do because they are just humans and are fearful of losing something

Carol.

QUOTE (1rider @ May 10 2009, 11:23 PM)
7. It is true that there have been very damaging rumors planted and circulated to imply impurity or lack of provenance in the pedigrees of some of the greatest bloodlines the SE community has ever known. I believe very strongly that this is no accident. Think about it...who has ever bothered to target bloodlines that weren't gaining success?  It is easy to promote the "purest of the pure" label stuck on the rumps of one's own breeding animals by simply pointing out whatever holes exist in "the other guys" horse's pedigrees  -- while absolutely ignoring the same (or worse) holes which exist in the ancestry of one's own herd. What easier way to bring down a competitor's breeding program or to devaluate a competitors produce? And it has always worked like a charm. Why? Because the people who perpetrate these rumors DEPEND upon the lack of knowledge of others.
To have knowledge is to be empowered. 
Caryn Rogosky
...Why cant it be simple question and research... Still never heard any one put this horses type , conformation or quality put down.... old resentment keeps clouding these subjects...the lack of knowledge about horses has been the biggest money maker in this industry, mostly by the halter industry..... Ken
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 11 2009, 03:08 PM
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I agree, it should just be about questions and research -- and if that had been the case we wouldn't still be talking about this topic some three decades after the rumor was started -- because it is a non-issue. The research has answered the "questions" raised about this ancestor to an equal or far greater degree than it has answered the same questions for many other ancestors whose qualifications or provenance are never doubted.

This is about is the distortion of reality through a grossly uneven application of criteria. Every person who has done serious research on Arabian horse lines to the desert has concluded the same thing -- there are "questions", with regard to details and/or recorded data, in the pedigree of every ancestor. It is a fact that the research has revealed far less open questions in the documented pedigree of Exochorda than in many, many other "non-questioned" SE ancestors...and therein lies the great distortion.

Read the statement by Joe Ferris again (which I posted earlier):
"I was able to come up with a composite list of 34 get of Rustem. In checking the RAS Stud book Vol I, I found that of those get produced in Egypt (and there may be others not documented) very few appear in any official records. A number of them are properly photographed or identified by Jack Humphrey in 1932 in Egypt while visiting Prince Kemal El Dine. Some had no names. Three of the dams of these Rustem get are not identified in any stud book or official record with ancestry, strain, breeders ect. recorded.--- these being Nizma, Rizkia and Hasni Hegazia...ultimately only the Prince knows who these mares are. But I have no reason NOT to think of them as Egyptian Arabian horses. This is but one example of what we have to constantly deal with in exploring the details of past ancestry".

Misused, doubt can be a powerfully damaging tool. Once the seed of doubt is planted it takes a great deal of time and an unrelenting amount of effort to weed it out. It is very easy to throw seeds of doubt into other people's gardens, and for many years this has been done, rather successfully in some cases. Is this ethical? Should this sort of practice be rewarded? That is for each person to decide for themselves.
Caryn Rogosky
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Dieter
post Mar 19 2012, 11:55 AM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 10 2009, 09:20 PM) *
<snipped>6. There is very strong and mounting evidence to support the belief that Leila II was bred and/or raised by Prince Kemal El Din (the cousin to Prince Mohamed Aly and then the President of the RAS) -- and at this time, there is no evidence at all to prove that this is not the case. There is ZERO evidence to support any idea that the ancestry or qualifications of Leila II are any more "questionable" than any other Straight Egyptian Arabian horse. Not even one iota...never has been.<snipped>Caryn Rogosky

In an effort to keep the record straight, I wrote to the EAO El Zahraa Stud earlier this year about this mare. Their answer, in part was:
QUOTE
Exochorda is not and never was in the breeding programme of ElZahraa horses, ElZahraa breeding programme including along the history Arabians well knwn and well collected from the kings and sheiks, princes as you known, as for excorda it is in some private arabians, that means BELONGING TO OWNERS NOT THE E.A.O.
Anyone can write to the EAO and pose questions, but for the record, the EAO has stated this mare was NOT owned by any royalty as suggested in #6 above.
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diane
post Mar 19 2012, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 09:55 PM) *
QUOTE
Exochorda is not and never was in the breeding programme of ElZahraa horses, ElZahraa breeding programme including along the history Arabians well knwn and well collected from the kings and sheiks, princes as you known, as for excorda it is in some private arabians, that means BELONGING TO OWNERS NOT THE E.A.O.

In an effort to keep the record straight, I wrote to the EAO El Zahraa Stud earlier this year about this mare. Their answer, in part was:
Anyone can write to the EAO and pose questions, but for the record, the EAO has stated this mare was NOT owned by any royalty as suggested in #6 above.


Regarding Exochorda, this correspondence, as presented, simply states that Exochorda was in private ownership, nothing else. It does not state, as you suggest - "...this mare was not owned by any royalty..." The statement about Arabians obtained from royalty pertains only to the EAO El Zahraa stud owned Arabians.

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Dieter
post Mar 19 2012, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE (diane @ Mar 19 2012, 08:24 AM) *
In an effort to keep the record straight, I wrote to the EAO El Zahraa Stud earlier this year about this mare. Their answer, in part was:
Anyone can write to the EAO and pose questions, but for the record, the EAO has stated this mare was NOT owned by any royalty as suggested in #6 above.


Regarding Exochorda, this correspondence, as presented, simply states that Exochorda was in private ownership, nothing else. It does not state, as you suggest - "...this mare was not owned by any royalty..." The statement about Arabians obtained from royalty pertains only to the EAO El Zahraa stud owned Arabians.
We will agree to disagree. The EAO has NEVER used and STILL DOES NOT USE this blood because it was not owned by any royalty.

"Exochorda is not and never was in the breeding programme of ElZahraa horses, ElZahraa breeding programme including along the history Arabians well knwn and well collected from the kings and sheiks, princes as you known, as for excorda it is in some private arabians, that means BELONGING TO OWNERS NOT THE E.A.O."
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diane
post Mar 19 2012, 12:40 PM
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QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 19 2012, 10:32 PM) *
We will agree to disagree. The EAO has NEVER used and STILL DOES NOT USE this blood because it was not owned by any royalty.

"Exochorda is not and never was in the breeding programme of ElZahraa horses, ElZahraa breeding programme including along the history Arabians well knwn and well collected from the kings and sheiks, princes as you known, as for excorda it is in some private arabians, that means BELONGING TO OWNERS NOT THE E.A.O."

Questions:

Has what you have bolded ever been in dispute?

Does what you have bolded specifically state that Exochorda wasn't at some time in the ownership that could have been royally connected?

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MHuprich
post Mar 19 2012, 12:44 PM
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Liz, are you saying the EAO only used horses that were previously owned by royalty? I'm probably misunderstanding what you're saying.
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