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> Breeding Se Arabians, What's your role in all of this?
KGH
post Jul 5 2009, 01:22 PM
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I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

Barbara Griffith once wrote an article about what are the things that a good breeder should do in order to be succesful. We've read the article from Judi Forbis about what a breeder is, and we've read many posts on this forum about what it takes to be a good breeder.

I have to think it goes back to several things which are responsible for formulating success when breeding SE horses.

Bart describes in another thread, about that 'gut feeling' in regards to horses that where you just 'know' what is in a horse and why you think he will work.

I think we have a good mix on this forum. Some are more focused a certain lines of horses, and others are taking finished horses and breeding them to each other to get more of them. One looks to developing lines of horses , and one looks to survey from the top to get a ready made result and take a little here and there to start breeding. While neither is necessarily wrong, nor should we be at ends with one another, I think that we can benefit by explaining some of our logic and methods to gain more understanding.

It seem though that we see less and lees of those who develope a group of horses which are known to be a specific type, common lines, centralized focus on a specific bloodgroup,etc. and more who are taking one of these to go with one of those, and on and on.
Fewer breeders are breeding horses past a 1 or 2 generations and are more consistantly changing their lines of horses.

Please share your thoughts on this subject so we can all gain a better understanding.

I am wondering what line or group of horses are you known for ?
What are your horses known for?
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Sumerlan
post Jul 6 2009, 01:53 AM
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Kelly:

I have been watching this go unanswered all day! I think you have covered it all and folks don't know where to jump in ... what specifically are you reflectively searching for here? Just trying to move this thread along a bit ...

Susan
Sumerlan
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KGH
post Jul 6 2009, 11:51 AM
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Hi Susan,
I changed my post a bit to ask more specifically what I was hoping to find out.

I think part of the reason we 'may be' having a harder time finding the right horse or selling our horses is we aren't identifying who we are as breeders and what are horses are in terms of what they are known for.

Some of our long standing breeders developed their own look, type, style, quality in horses, but we are seeing less and less of that every day.

When the SE or preservation type organizations put on educational seminars about horses, bloodlines, groups of horses representing a strain, or ancesteral element, those giving the seminars always reflect back to decades ago when you knew who a breeder was and what his horses were. Today we see less of this.

I was put off by one breeder lately who said, nobody cares about this or the history or what happened 20-30-50-100 years ago. All you have to do is, just go buy a pretty horse breed it, and sell it. I find it hard to imagine this is what breeding SE horses has become. Or to just go and find a good looking mare , breed it to a top show stallion, sell the foal, and viola..you are succesful. I find this to be a bit disheartening because these horses don't generally become great breeding stock, because they aren't bred to produce, just bred by show names and what's hot. In the meantime though I have to stop and think....and right there IS the difference between a merchant of horses and a horse breeder.
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Sumerlan
post Jul 6 2009, 12:42 PM
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Kelly:

History is critically important; and it must be studied for one to understand the past in order to develop the future.

I find your post quite reflective and I have often wondered a few of the same things. Have we, as present breeders, seen the 'history' of our breed disappear with our longtime breeders slowly quitting ... one by one?

I have pondered why this may be happening myself and so will name some reasons I have come up with in my mind. 1. The element of "time" within that breeder's lifetime is a consideration. How long does that breeder actually have in his/her lifetime to create or stamp a "look" or program? 2. Quantity/quality of horses / breedings / progeny within that breeder's herd is another consideration. If the time factor is limited, the only way to achieve a 'look' or 'program' is to breed a good quantity per year in order to achieve "consistency or a look". 3. And let's not forget money ... it makes the world go round but supports the ability to breed. 4. And some of us are just getting started! It takes years and years to develop one's eye, type and fundamental purpose(s) ... of what, as a breeder, we are seeking to achieve. Making critical decisions on mares is the initial outset/purpose. Selectively seeking a stallion or stallion(s) to enhance those mares ... takes time and availability of that stallion!!

There are other reasons ... like mindset of a breeder(s). Have our 'mindsets' been altered by living in a world filled with instant gratification?

When our peers began back in the '50's', '60's', '70's' and '80's' .. breeding meant live cover only for the most part .. these breeders HAD to breed to their own stock or drive to breed a mare to an outside stallion. They had such different limitations then. And so their programs developed from such a different standpoint and one thing for certain .. it took time to develop those programs. But with time, the generations unfolded, each program into it's own producing generations of breeding stock.

Breeders now have access to semen all over the world. Instant gratification in one generation or in double packets so to speak. With breeding methods changing, the element of time disapates somewhat. But certainly, this new methodology changes the 'modern day' concept(s) of breeding.

There are still programs out there that are breeding the same lines they began with or settled into eventually and creating their own look. Stamping their progeny with that breeder's idea of type and style. This style of breeding should be cherished among all breeders. For it is proven breeding ... generation after generation.

Hope this makes sense this morning ... only one cup of coffee!

Susan
Sumerlan

This post has been edited by Sumerlan: Jul 6 2009, 01:49 PM
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Sumerlan
post Jul 6 2009, 10:14 PM
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Well, I was gone all day working frantically in many directions and have returned to see that apparently Kelly and I cleared the room on this discussion! Was truly looking forward to everyone's thoughts here ... come on folks ... jump right in!!

Susan
Sumerlan
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Billy W
post Jul 6 2009, 10:53 PM
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I personally by no means a seasoned breeder, infact just starting out on that path. I know the horses I prefer and I have put alot of study and reading and still feel VERY wet behind the ears. I known I have always admired the Ansata horses and what they represent, and I know that not all lines are everyones taste....I chose *Ansata Ibn Halima as a foundation and so my starting point.

I have a linebred *Ansata Ibn Halima young stallion of the Nile line who also has been a wonderful family of great genetic strengths. I selected the few mares I have for him for specific females as well as male lines, and have seen similar breeding outcome and really liked what I have seen. We have chose El Halimaar and Ansata Halim Shah lines with Maar Ree female lines to cross with our young stallion and in the process of hopefully adding a Anaza El Farid bred mare to our very small group...again a cross I have seen with our stallions sire and has produced amazingly well .....so our journey is just starting and Im sure many learning curves will be apart of that and I personally look forward to the whole learning experience to see what my choices created by passion of certain lines will bring forth for us.


Billy
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daphnekerby
post Jul 7 2009, 03:34 AM
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Certainly I'm no pro but I have extremely knowledgable mentors and I have learned that it takes years to develop "a look" within your program. I think that consistency is a mark of success for a program. IOW, when every foal that hits the ground is stunning. Of course "stunning" is defined by each breeder. Some traits are more of a priority than others and trait preferences vary so much for each breeder.
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Cheryl L
post Jul 7 2009, 10:53 PM
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Susan,
I understand exactly what you wrote and they mirror my thoughts also.
Especially the transported semen. I remember when it was a big deal to have a West Coast SE on the East Coast or that hot new stallion from the South has come North.
That was also in the day of actually visiting farms and seeing their breeding progams and looking at the horses in the flesh.
Now to get something different, we are looking to other countrys, yet what is different is still along the same lines as is here.
Don't get me wrong, I am really excited with seeing the new imports coming in.

Also, like Kelly said, it is disheartening to talk to a person and they have no clue as to what is in the background of their horses and why and how they were bred the way they were.

Just agreeing with the thoughts above, as I am not a breeder. Just a long time student of the SE.
Cheryl
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Sumerlan
post Jul 8 2009, 12:51 AM
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Cheryl:

Glad to know with one cup of coffee I made some sense ... tend to ramble without half a pot. wink.gif But to me ... today's breeding methodology and availability of instant gratification is creating a vast difference between the older ways and the newer ways.

Several years ago, I personally made a commitment to myself to see as many farms as I can each year. It is one of the most important steps in my opinion. I enjoy taking off and traveling anyway to clear my mind ... what better adventure to take than to visit different programs? To see with one's own eyes the horses in the flesh, the family traits, the friendships ..old and new.. the stories of the past, present and hopes for the future?

Am getting ready to head to Kehilan Arabians in September, the Breeder's Conference in September (will be searching for farms to visit!) and on to Rancho Bulakenyo in October. Can not wait!

Kelly, have been thinking about what role I will play as a breeder .. still thinking about that one .. but certainly it will be to breed as close to our Standard as possible; and to please my own sense of type, style, conformation and functionality of each individual I create in this world.

Susan G
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idan atiq
post Jul 8 2009, 04:22 AM
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Excellent thread, thanks for starting this discussion.
It is really important to support those breeders who have a clear vision of what they are want to accomplish, because they often breed those horses that will eventually play a key role in a way that is good for the entire breed.
I started out breeding Arabians in the US and later moved to Israel. Through exposure to Al Khamsa and meeting serious preservationist breeders during the 1970's and early 1980's I became very interested in all asil and in particular SE Arabians.
As my resources were limited and I wanted to do something positive for the breed, I began by breeding Egyptian-Rabanna horses, not classified within the SE group, because it was obvious that very few breeders cared about them as they did not carry the SE label. And of course they were less expensive. Later on these horses became part of the preservation groups Sheikh Obeyd and/or Heirloom Egyptians. My name became associated with these very athletic, 'three-circle', classic horsees when I moved to Israel in 1984 and brought 2 mares and one stallion to form a breeding program which last through the end of the decade of the 90's. In association with my efforts Kibbutz Sha'ar HaGolan and Vincent Melzac of West Virginia also exported horses of this same group to Israel.
Looking back it is satisfying to see that these bloodlines have taken root in our ancient land, and there are still breeders, especially from amongst our Druse community, that are still preserving these lines and attempting as much as possible to breed within the group, and when not possible, at least within asil lines.
Towards the end of the 90s, with a new business partner, Mr. Kuti Aharon, we took the decision to eventually transform our herd to a SE herd so that this project could be more self-sustaining and it would be easier to market horses. I was always very interested in the group of horses that was sent during the late 60s and early 70s to Babolna in Hungary from Egypt because of the excellent horses that developed from that program. In 2000 my partner and I travelled to Hungary to see the program firsthand and circumstances allowed us to seize the day and buy up several key mares and fillies as well as a stalllion to start the only program we know of anywhere dedicating to preserving the 'Babolna Egyptian' -- the type of horse represented at the program's peak in the 1980s. These horses were extremely refined and elegant with perfect tail carriage, excellent movement, and carry particularly high concentrations of the blood of Yosreia, Mohga, El Sareei, and Tuhotmos. We have used the wonderful mare Gala (Ibn Galal I x Lotfeia) as our 'breeding ideal' regarding phenotype, and are in touch with breeders around the world whose horses carry Babolna blood that we eventually hope to infuse into our program. Later this year the first foal of the 4th generation of our breeding will be born.
As Babolna future is somewhat 'at risk' and the SE there much smaller than it was in the past, we hope to continue to preserve a nucleus of horses that will carry on their special traits to be used and appreciated around the world.
To get a better understanding of our vision please visit our Facebook albums at the following links:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=7604...31&l=d434b9d11d

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=8405...31&l=33617fb95c

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=7604...31&l=c871413459

Thanks for allowing us to share our vision and the horses that bless our lives.

All the best,

Tzviah Idan
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Dr Daniel Wigger
post Jul 8 2009, 07:01 AM
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QUOTE (idan atiq @ Jul 8 2009, 04:22 AM)
I was always very interested in the group of horses that was sent during the late 60s and early 70s to Babolna in Hungary from Egypt because of the excellent horses that developed from that program.  In 2000 my partner and I travelled to Hungary to see the program firsthand and circumstances allowed us to seize the day and buy up several key mares and fillies as well as a stalllion to start the only program we know of anywhere dedicating to preserving the 'Babolna Egyptian' -- the type of horse represented at the program's peak in the 1980s. These horses were extremely refined and elegant with perfect tail carriage, excellent movement, and carry particularly high concentrations of the blood of Yosreia, Mohga, El Sareei, and Tuhotmos.    We have used the wonderful mare Gala (Ibn Galal I x Lotfeia)  as our 'breeding ideal' regarding phenotype, and are in touch with breeders around the world whose horses carry Babolna blood that we eventually hope to infuse into our program. Later this year the first foal of the 4th generation of our breeding will be born.
As Babolna future is somewhat 'at risk'  and the SE there much smaller than it was in the past, we hope to continue to preserve a nucleus of horses that will carry on their special traits to be used and appreciated around the world. 
*


Dear Tzviah,

you did a very good choice in this, because all the foundation horses from Babolna were chosen by Dr. Nagel & Dr. Burgert on advice of Dr. Zaher, three breeders who shared a very similar vision.
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idan atiq
post Jul 8 2009, 08:02 AM
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Dear Dr. Wigger,
Yes, absolutely. These importations had such tremendous influence worldwide both via the Babolna program, Nagels's program, other German programs established around them. That is what piqued our interest over many years. It is our privilege to try to preserve the program built around those horses that established families at Babolna. From the mid-90s they seemed to mostly have been scattered in so many directions. Hopefully we can build a nucleus carrying on the best traits of the Babolna Egyptian.
With best wishes,
Tzviah Idan
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Sumerlan
post Jul 8 2009, 11:11 AM
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QUOTE (Dr Daniel Wigger @ Jul 8 2009, 08:01 AM)
Dear Tzviah,

you did a very good choice in this, because all the foundation horses from Babolna were chosen by Dr. Nagel & Dr. Burgert on advice of Dr. Zaher, three breeders who shared a very similar vision.
*



QUOTE (idan atiq @ Jul 8 2009, 09:02 AM)
Dear Dr. Wigger,
Yes, absolutely.  These importations had such tremendous influence worldwide both via the Babolna program, Nagels's program, other German programs established around them. That is what piqued our interest over many years.  It is our privilege to try to preserve the program built around those horses that established families at Babolna.  From the mid-90s they seemed to mostly have been scattered in so many directions.  Hopefully we can build a nucleus carrying on the best traits of the Babolna Egyptian.
With best wishes,
Tzviah Idan
*


Tzviah Idan:

The profound importance of history played it's hand in the paths you have taken within the breed. I have been a long admirer of Dr. Nagel's program and other German programs and, in fact, am drawn to these programs intensely. I admire your dedication in preserving the Babolna Egyptian.

Although I have not yet been enabled to travel to see these programs .. one of my goals is to do so .. perhaps one day we could meet .. would love to travel with someone who could guide me to each farm where I will see my dream come to life by seeing these programs in the flesh.

Your photographic collections are stunning ... I congratulate you on your successes!

Susan G
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Al Zayd NZ
post Jul 8 2009, 12:23 PM
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It is very true the world is a changing... faster than we can imagine...

Thank goodness we have the Arabian Horse and even more that we have the Straight Egyptian Arabian Horse...

I don't agree with all that has been said because I think what should be a huge benefit of breeding Straight Egyptians is that you can follow each others results with a clearer picture, add the history and a much higher level of predicability that can allow a wana to be and/or genuine breeder alike to make a valuable contribution to the next generation. Add the latest and bestest breeding options at their finger tips or bank accounts to match and some truly unique and previously impossible results may eventuate.

What I do have to agree with, is that if you truly want to achieve a breeding program of longevity then you had better have vision, patience, stability and a very clear conviction. Don't forget to mention a good measure of ability to admit if you get it wrong and the strength of character to make the required changes.

For me I had the fortune to contract the addiction for the Arabian Horse as a youth. Dad had been drawn to the Arabian as the ultimate family pleasure horse. He had the fortune of being raised with horses being required for transportation and the farm laborer. It was also a changing world but the love of horses is instinctive.

I may have been influenced via osmosist. Dad had added to his addiction and discovered a fascination of the "modern" Egyptian horse. Straight Egyptian wasn't really considered, but this was late 1960's.

The breeding program of Holly Farm has been dedicated to producing an Arabian Horse with identifiable form and function. We have never followed fad or fashion, sometimes we have set it but stayed on course. I can only imagine what my Dad would say given that we still breed almost to the letter as he set the foundation. Where we have been and the journey and life these horses have achieved is nothing short of miraculous. We win and produce Champion Show horses and Champion Endurance horses. They provide us with a living and lifestyle second to none.

Now I have Sandie who has added her passion for the Arabian horse. While doing a "Stud Crawl" it was confirmed she was smitten with the Straight Egyptian and in particular Imperial Maakir. ...!

So "Al Zayd Straight Egyptians" was created in addition to Holly Farm. Huge influences to our vision is the inspiration of Morafic. A classic masterpiece the ultimate athlete. Unbreakable impenetrable companion. Way beyond life it's self... sculptured beauty, a strong function.... all we can imagine....!

... the responsibilities are massive and should be approached with commitment. What a privilege breeders have to make a contribution to creating the next generation.

David Marshall and Sandie MacLean
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Dr Daniel Wigger
post Jul 8 2009, 02:51 PM
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QUOTE (idan atiq @ Jul 8 2009, 08:02 AM)
Dear Dr. Wigger,
Yes, absolutely.  These importations had such tremendous influence worldwide both via the Babolna program, Nagels's program, other German programs established around them. That is what piqued our interest over many years.  It is our privilege to try to preserve the program built around those horses that established families at Babolna.  From the mid-90s they seemed to mostly have been scattered in so many directions.  Hopefully we can build a nucleus carrying on the best traits of the Babolna Egyptian.
With best wishes,
Tzviah Idan
*


Dear Tzviah,

if one studies the original composition of the "Babolna herd" and the programs and prolific lines that developed from it, one might get a clue about the vision behind. Just out of the back of my head the following horses were chosen for Babolna:

Ibn Galal/Magdi
Ghalion
Farag

Hanan
El Thayeba
Mahiba
Hanadi
Lotfeia
El Aziza
Bint Inas
Tamria
Bint Azza I
Momtaza
Hosna

Except for El Thayeba, all mares founded lines that still produce today. There are some programs in the world that show a marked resemblance of some of their horses in type although using different letters from this small alphabet and different sires to continue. Think of NK, El Thayeba, your program and Simeon stud. This somehow indicates to me, that the above group must have had a lot of traits in common even if there are none or only few photos of some of the mares available today.
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