Joined: 21-March 03
From: Idaho, USA
Member No.: 191
Personally, I am concentrating on breeding the Obeyyan strain. I have two mares who are my foundations, one just purchased and not yet home. Are they typical of the modern Obeyyan? Can't say, there aren't very many of them. The traits that these mares have in common are size, both are in excess of fifteen hands, good legs and extremely athletic builds - the kind of horse you could ride for days under adverse conditions. They have very attractive heads but the not the little wedgy heads that are so popular in the show ring. Small heads look silly on big horses, so I would have to say their heads fit their bodies.
As time permits, I plan to build a website dedicated to the Obeyyan horse, showing old and modern photos when I can find them and listing as many living Obeyyan horses and their pedigrees as I can track down. This incredible strain probably has no more than 200 - 300 living horses and I plan to do all I can to raise awareness about it and try to keep it from extinction.
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192
Good morning everybody
I dont know if one can go by the strain only. I rather can see if it is the "Antar,Sameh,Mashhour,Nazeer" type, seeing the characterristics in their offspring, although they differ in looks. Of course the femaile tail line of theirs which I always take a careful look tells me a great deal. Some stallions are "Stempelhengste" others are not. While in each strain you will find that some dont quite look like it, by this I mean- we have a Kuhaylan'Ajuz rodan you would swear is a Saklawi Jidran, and so on.
I look at the mare, and chose a stallion to improve, if this is what I want. So I look at the stallion too and than see what the match brought about in their offspring. I never bred because of a strain, but always of what the horse is and needs. therefore, one must take a careful look at the mare and stallion IN THE FLESH, examine it close up, and then decide.
Joined: 18-June 03
Member No.: 548
There have been so many strain discussions lately. Wonder what is going on? And in each of these discussions, people have stated things in favor of and against strains, which really make you stop and think, and wonder why you believe the things that you do believe. One of the most striking examples of strains is found in Judith Forbis' Authentic Arabian Bloodstock and the pictures of the three Kuhaylan Jellabi (by tail female line)stallions: the all Babson Egyptian Fadl Dan, the Bentwood bred Prince Fa Moniet, and the Attalah bred Mohummed Saddan. Of the three, Fadl Dan embodies the characteristics that one expects from a KJ horse. I saw Fadl Dan in person and he was very strong for the Babson type, which I like, by the way. I also saw and interacted with Prince Fa Moniet, who also has Babson blood on the maternal side of his pedigree but he was a much different horse (very refined, very stretchy, very Saqlawi looking) and I really liked him quite a bit. I never saw Mohummed Saddan but I think he is in West Virginia now and from the pictures that I have seen, a nice looking horse too and more Dahman in his looks.
I had a friend who was breeding exclusively in the KJ strain and her observations, the further she bred within the KJ strain, generation after generation, is that the horses really got more refined looking, than the horses a generation behind.
Judith Forbis' study to me proved that our horses are combinations of so many different strains that it is really difficult, from paper to say what a horse is supposed to look like, unless you really now the parents and the grandparents phenotype.
My personal feeling? That strains is a historical link to our horse's past and part of the rich tapestry that makes our horses unique. Although, I will also go out on the limb and say that the Bedouins were pretty astute in recogngnizing the significant part that a mare plays in the influence of her foal.
Don't know if I really answered your question or gave you more to think about!
Yes, Hansi. But really what interests me is that you can see, even today--years and years away from desert-bred--different "styles" or "looks" of Arabian horses. As long as a horse has type (which to me is a beautiful head, short back, and good tail carriage--the things which make the Arabian different from other breeds), then there can still be varieties among quite beautiful Arabian horses.
Part of this, I truly believe, is due--even today--to strains (particularly with SE horses). Part is also due to concentrated breeding programs (Russian, Polish, even here in the US, Ansata, Varian, Al Marah, etc.) And, were not the original strains just that: a breeding program of one Bedouin tribal group developing a look which, ancestor after ancestor, eventually became a "strain"?
There are still today some "pure in the strain" breeders, but other phenotypes in Arabian horses from non-strain breeders, can be, say, Dahmen or Abeyyan in look. For instance, in our barn we stand three stallions: HH Fortune Hunter (definitely Saghlawi in phenotype), Botswana (Dahmen by strain, but somewhat Abeyyan in phenotype--which is due to many of his ancestors on the sire line being Abeyyan. Of course, I think Dahmen and Abeyyan types look quite similar anyway). The third stallion, S Khoncherto, is not SE--and I have no idea as to his actual strain. But once I asked someone who knows a lot about strains, and they said "Oh, my dear, he looks positively Kuheilan in type." And I went back and studied my books and came back to the farm and looked at Khoncherto--and this expert was absolutely right (although I still don't know what strain Khoncherto is).
This is what I am seeking to understand better--do the strains, ancient as they may be (coupled with concentrated breeding programs) still influence the different looks of certain horses today? As an example, a horse like Magnum Psyche is quite different in look than a horse like FS Bengali, and yet both are very popular breeding stallions. Can we attribute any of this to strains, even in our modern world hundreds of years away from "desert-bred" horses?
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192
You said it right, Ralph
I, for one, am not an enthusiast for the Dahman Shahwans, simply because 9 out of ten I have seen have so badly deteriated in their conformation, functioability. Indeed, they are georgeous to look at, but that simply is not enough for me and many other horsemen/woman. A stallion simply should not look feminine, and must show strong male characteristics. Most of all, he has to be a powerful mover, and correct mover. I have seen some Dahman Shahwans of the Babson lines, and they were different and I liked them.
Prince Fa Moniet goes into the Marhroussa line, one of the most beautiful mares and extremely similar to the Gleanloch/Serenity imports of the 60/70's. this line appears to come through again and again, although over 80 years removed from present production. Just like Basilisk, which I see coming through in some today. We have a son of his "AK Shah Munifeh" who not only is a very correct and functional SE, but also an outstanding producer. He is a dream under saddle.
At the end one must aquire and breed off or from what one personally likes. Just because I dont like this or that, does not mean others have to. that's silly. It would be awful if we all like the same.
Thank you for such an erudite and concise answer...and you are heading in the direction I wish to study. (Ah, that I were younger, and didn't have a business to run, and could sit in a sunny library, surrounded by books and tapes and a good PC, and research a paper which might help "demystify" and contemporize Arabian horse strains.)
What I still seek is to know the names of some contemporary horses that we feel are good examples of a particular strain. I have all the line drawings, and Judith Forbis's most recent book is certainly very helpful...but in talking about this, it would be helpful to know what living horses can be pointed out as representative of a certain strain phenotype "look." I do agree that the strains are very combined, and the lines blurred. But one looks at the line drawings done by experts on strains and you wish you could actually look at a living example...it does help to see type in the flesh, I think.
Again, I daily celebrate the different types of Arabian horses--and am constantly amazed at the panoply of athletic ability and physical beauty this breed offers us. It's like irises...so many types and colors and uses! I don't necessarily think one strain (or phenotype) is more beautiful than another...even if my personal taste might be for the Dahmen and Saglawi type horses. Everyone has different tastes--some more masculine, some more feminine--how wonderful that the Arabian horse can please breeders from rough working cow horses to horses that look like fine porcelain sculptures.
Again, thank you for your response...it opens more doorways to avenues of study.,.
Joined: 18-March 04
Member No.: 1263
HI Allison Your S Khoncherto is indeed a Kohaylan Nowak. HIs tail female being *Malouma a desert bred imported from Egypt where she had been a moderately sucessful race horse. *Malouma ended up at Kelloggs & gave some very good & pretty atheletes. I believe she shows up in some of the old Gainey horses, old Skorage from Brusally (went on to import many a Polish Champ & I believe the first Russian horses (although I dont think they ever got papers on the first ones) ) The Donahues, Ibn Hanrah (was her blood) & Cass Ole. Wrigleys on Catalina Island had her thru Roayas. Joe Dawkins (Wrigleys trainer) used to rope BUFFALO off their Arabs!! (doubt we could get one of the fancy show horses even close enough to rope a Buffalo much less hold em down). I had an Egyptian related mare that tail femaled to *Malouma & altho Dahman & Seglawi strains were very heavyly represented, my mare was most definitely Kuhaylat in type All this family seemed to be very excellent working animals that had no problems staying sound. Hope this helps Chiron
Oh thank you...because, beyond giving me all this wonderful information on a lovely young stallion, you have validated the exact point I've been pondering....that the "strain phenotypes" really are still valid. We had no idea of the wonderful tail female information you have so generously shared on Khoncherto...but Mike Albertini, our general manager at Talaria, knew his strains well enough to declare that Khoncherto was probably Kuhaylan just by looking at the horse. I find this absolutely fascinating with such mixed bloodlines...and you have validated that Mike was right.
But pedigree-wise, as I'm sure you've seen, Khoncherto is a bit of a mongrel of American breeding: by JK Amadeus a Bey Shah son out of a Khemosabi daughter (who was out of a Bask daughter). So he carries Bey Shah, Khemo, Bask, and old Crabbet bloodlines in his pedigree. I think he is a handsome stallion: very masculine with a pretty face and big big liquid dark eyes--and a gorgeous body. But very different from say, another beautiful SE stallion we stand, Botswana, or the regal gentleman, HH Fortune Hunter. They are three different strains: Kuhaylan, Dahman, and Saghlawi. All are beautiful horses in their own right...but quite different phenotypically (although all have good Arabian type).
It's fascinating, isn't it? Thank you again for the time it took to research Khoncherto's strain. I am very grateful for your interest and your kind assistance.
Joined: 18-March 04
Member No.: 1263
Say Allison just for fun would you like a break down of the strains of your Khoncherto? See if he really is "heavy" to Kuhaylan or old *Malouma was one of those mares who really passes on her type for generation. Might take me a day or two as my computer has decided the printer has left home! Lestwise it cant seem to find it. Then if I can make it work photos of 2 brothers, 1 year apart, pure in the strain Dahman Shawan thru BInt Bint Sabbah. The ONLY trait they have in common is color!! Even temperments are completely different. Have a mare pure in strain Dahmah from BInt El Bahrain, she doesnt even share color trait!! Then wait til you see what a Kuhaylan Rodaniyah mare (who looks Saglawi or even more like the Manaki) does with 4 different stallions!!! You will give up on strains altogether. Which in MHO would be a mistake but...strains are only one tiny tool we can try to use to create our perfect foal. Which of course might not be your idea of perfect. Thats what makes it so much fun! Chiron
One other point...and I understand that the strain/phenotype link can be tenuous so many generations past desert-bred. But few American breeders (other than SE breeders) pay much attention to strains at all--many could not even tell you the five most prominent strain names.
However, many many very fine American breeders talk regularly about the importance of "the tail female line" in determining certain characteristics. But are they not really referring to the strain line without perhaps even knowing it? It's a little humorous as many US breeders believe the SE breeders to be a little too involved in the history and romance of the Arabian horse...and all the somewhat arcane body of knowledge SE breeders like to discuss.
But even an American breeder who breeds, say, working cow Arabians, will talk about that tail female line!
Best to you--thanks again for all your great information! Allison of Talaria
And, were not the original strains just that: a breeding program of one Bedouin tribal group developing a look which, ancestor after ancestor, eventually became a "strain"?
I look at the mare, and chose a stallion to improve, if this is what I want. So I look at the stallion too and than see what the match brought about in their offspring. I never bred because of a strain, but always of what the horse is and needs.
You are both right. Breeders like the "look" (eye appeal AND functionality) or type of a horse and breed to achieve more of that look. It makes sense that the look will occur in a certain strain, so the breeding program includes mostly individuals within that strain. If a breeder strain-breeds and gets consistent results, both objectives are achieved. I color coded my pedigrees so that I could see at a glance the strength of a strain in my horses. My mare that looks the most Kuhaylan (based on the Raswan definition) does have a lot of blue in her pedigree (I used blue for Kuhaylan obviously). My Saqlawi mare's pedigree is mostly red (red for Saqlawi) and she looks it.
On top of all that, or in addition to, I like the athletic look of Arabs bred to race so my Kuhaylan foundation mare has a slightly different look than her very Kuhaylan looking daughter, but her colts (by the same stallion) are built more like her. So I think you also have to look (as Hansi would say) at the individual results. It is simply my experience (limited as it is) that by breeding within the strain, I am achieving the look I like that caused me to pick this strain in the first place.
Joined: 17-March 03
Member No.: 110
We should merge this topic (Modern Phenotypes for Desert-bred Strains) with the Inherent Capabilities of Strains as they both tie in together.
Debra Nowak asked me to post some photos of her pure- in -the- strain Kuhaylan filly Abraxas Bint Abu.
According to Debra, Abraxas Bint Abu, a daughter of Abu Hilal, is the most concentrated pure-in-the-strain Kuhaylan filly in the world today. She is the exquisite culmination of a 20-year vision to improve the genetic base of straight Egyptian Arabians through perfecting pure strain breeding. This was historian Carl Raswan's quest, a challenge Abraxas Arabians accepted and, perhaps, have accomplished.