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diane
post Nov 17 2010, 12:26 PM
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Marilyn (Sep 27 2010, 12:40pm), my thoughts are that the Egyptian Arabian would have survived – one way or another. The western PS way is only ONE way. I wouldn’t hesitate to suggest that it isn’t necessarily the best or even a better way for that survival but it is the one most westerners are familiar with (or should be).

The Egyptian Arabian is available in numbers as per the chosen way of promotional breeding doctrine advocators as founded by the Pyramid Society. Those numbers do not currently reflect a broad use of all available lines within the Egyptian or better still, the asil population of the desert bred horse of the nomadic Arabian. This is something which I feel the author advocates – more use of the broader asil gene pool, even if he is directing that towards groups he is more familiar with. Groups of bloodlines have been and are still being ignored and openly rejected for one nuance or another, real or imagined. In this sense, the author, Philippe Paraskevas, is correct, bodies such as the RAS/EAO in Egypt and the state studs of Germany continue while family establishments (farms/studs) are limited by mortality of physical being, lack of continued interest and/or same or similar objectives by descendents or inheritors!
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diane
post Nov 17 2010, 12:34 PM
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Gari (Sep 28 2010, 12:03am), It’s been a long time smile.gif The book is worthy of a read (or many) smile.gif

Regarding your thoughts, have you considered that the survival of the fittest isn’t exactly true, in the true sense. Suggestively, the asil had someone looking after them and this included feeding them camels’ milk and dates, both apparently rich in nutriments! Granted, the asils, nor the people, given their nomadic life style were, in general, obese! Westerners may have influenced growth via nutrition but if this was so, then why hasn’t the breed consistently exceeded previous accepted norms? There are still asils being born today who are not growing beyond 14hh. Their full siblings might, other family members might and more than likely they would receiving the same nutritional value but their genes stop them growing at a given point. We just don’t get to see or hear about these individuals. Should they be dismissed for the general asil breeding population? In my opinion, no – they may well produce to the norm or higher. The same can be suggested of any other attribute when breeding – something may appear one generation and then rarely in the future or never again. As the author illustrates, there may well never be another Morafic, there hasn’t been to date.

Profit making and tax implications re horses – well, that’s an individual objective and therefore is subjective. Not all breeders declare the interest as a business therefore tax and profit making aren’t a concern. I don’t know the implications behind the RAS/EAO or the state studs of European connections. Suggestively, the change of management and probably the decline of viable revenue-raising interest could have been the catalysts behind the closure of Arabian breeding sections within two State Agricultural colleges here in Queensland and New South Wales, Australia.

My thoughts having read the book, is how will it be possible to maintain an institution like the EAO - El Zahraa? What will allow it to maintain a neutrality and breed the asil as an asil in the best image of the original? Will it take global donations? If so, then how does that funding get managed without any possible or plausible mismanagement? Who then gets to nominate leaders and decision makers? Would Egypt nominate their preferences for donators to vote on? Nothing will be perfect, no doubt, but in the interest of preserving the originality of the asil at least one constant must be maintained. With this last thought, does it need to be in Egypt?
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diane
post Nov 17 2010, 12:40 PM
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Amy (Saazar Sep 28 2010, 12:57am) Are we actually seeing more genetic faults or just more of the same via increased numbers (different names, same bloodlines / genes)? I’m assuming that you are talking about both conformational and genetic faults? As there are more numbers utilising the same few source bloodlines (not necessarily different genes), is it a case of we can’t ignore and/or hide genetic faults such as SCID, LFS, JES, GPT, CA anymore? Regarding conformational faults – my question is are we truly reviewing conformation faults or are they flaws that the creators lived with and bred on because, very obviously (as a matter of survival), they didn’t impair performance? Have we as westerners dug ourselves into a hole on the quest for outing anything that remotely looks like a fatal fault? So eager to call a fault that we hunt for the negatives all the time. We have a judging system that is paranoid about them. How often do you hear anyone suggest that even though a horse isn’t perfect they can do something or many things exceptionally well? I know from experience that the endurance circuit is one of the best examples available to us. Rarely is there a perfect horse doing endurance and yet some do well, others don’t. It boils down to reality, what is in front of us; understanding conformation variety and accepting it for what it is. I have to ask, how can the breed be improved upon if the very foundations doesn’t have perfection in these terms? Humans aren’t conformationally perfect, why expect/demand it of animals? If by chance a perfect individual is bred, it has to be bred to an imperfect individual (one step forward, two steps back) or, perhaps, there’s the option of cloning or gene modifications! (I jest). Though, jest aside, it then wouldn’t be preservation of the original! Any improvement is a CHANGE therefore not true preservation.
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diane
post Nov 17 2010, 12:50 PM
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More of my thoughts if you haven’t already had enough... how many actual, true outcrosses does the asil gene pool have available? Being a limited gene pool, which asils are available as an actual genetic outcross? If there are non, then the asil gene pool, of which the Egyptian Arabian is a part, is being linebred, either to a lesser or greater degree, continuously. Linebred moderately, intensely and in the extreme, inbred but not outcrossed in terms of available genes. Outcrosses, of a genetic variety, were done in the very early years, reasons vary and we are not coping well with the result these days. Why is the author suggesting there are “outcrosses” available? Which genes, that haven’t been used before – at all, are available as outcrosses?

I would also query of the author, if he was so keen on the work of Major Roger Dawson Upton as detailed in the work of Scherbatov and Stronganov, why didn’t the author seek to obtain both of Major RD Upton’s works ( Newmarket to Arabia and Gleanings from the Desert of Arabia ) and read them for further information?

I’m also a little puzzled as to why the author has placed faith in Daumas’ Horses of the Sahara in his book as Daumas and consequently the author, quotes Abd El-Kader – Emir of Mascara (Oran, Algeria). Although I’ve read this book, it didn’t impress me as much as other books written in the same era regarding the origins and originality of the asil. My understanding is that Abd El-Kader wasn’t a nomadic Bedouin of a known tribe within the Arabian Peninsula, the homeland and breeding grounds of the asil. Daumas was French and stationed in Algeria (1835 – 1841(?)). This is where he met Abd El-Kader. It is known that this pair formed a friendship of a kind and Abd El-Kader and Daumas corresponded through the years. Later, Daumas became the Director of Algerian Affairs in the Ministry of War in Paris (1850) and in 1857 was named a Senator.

Abd El-Kader was known to have completed a pilgrimage to Mecca between the years of 1825 – 1830. Is this the only documented time he had in the Arabian Peninsula and therefore in touch with the culture and folk of the region? Abd El-Kader was noted for travelling to Mecca for the pilgrimage and visited Damascus and Baghdad before returning to Algeria before the French invasion, therefore suggestively 1830. He and his family were exiled in France from 1847 until 1852. It's noted he moved to Damascus in 1855. Abd El-Kader died in Damascus during 1883.



My thoughts shared with no offence intended, just pure curiosity.
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diane
post Nov 17 2010, 10:37 PM
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Regarding the conclusions... my thoughts...

The author, throughout his book, states that the judging system needs to be reconciled with the variety of phenotype that the asil, albeit the Egyptian Arabian in this instance, shows, even though he refers to these physical differences as "strains". I do like this thinking - judging variety. It is something I have thought and written about on forums often. It is for this reason - having delved into strains as names (as they are nothing more than a naming system devised by the original breeders of the asil desert horse) rather than considered as a genetic resource from which a phenotype will result. Phenotype is a visual portion of the individual's genetic code. Therefore, I don't agree with his solution (Conclusion #2). To my mind it is setting the Breed up for failure via more confusion. It won't work effectively to embrace the variety which was and still is offered by the asil. Confusion will be that a strain name does not always reflect that which is suggested of it phenotypically as per westernised idiom. The solution should be to judge on phenotype, pure and simple, not on a strain name grouping. Judging should be done on phenotype as a result of the individual's genetic make-up. HOWEVER... this will require that judges must have a thorough working knowledge of a functional individual per its phenotype. Briefly - a rectangular horse should not be judged against a square horse either by one-on-one comparison OR to the Standardised image (read classic, ideal as well). The author's message is don't try and make the asil into something that it is not. My thoughts are, to do this accurately, the asil must be reviewed and judged as a unique individual because it they are unique. How many other breeds show such a variety of phenotype - non. Thereby, westerners have imposed a universal, standardising judging system on a unique breed or more specifically, the original portion of a breed, the asil. If an asil is to be judged, then a judging system must reflect their uniqueness to maintain its original variety and no more more so than those within the herd at the EAO. Phenotype is much more than the result of strain names. Sometimes phenotype and the westernised description of strain names coincide, other times it does not. What happens to those individuals who don't look like what their strain names suggest they should look like? Are they discarded, frowned up, not bred from - for all the wrong reasoning, a westerner's reasoning?


The book is primarily written for Egyptians. The author writes about why he chose to publish in English first and offered globally, so I feel there is a subtle message there for westerners. The author suggests an Eygptian version is to be published in the future. This first publishing is in English with global distribution. Amongst other issues, perhaps he's also put the new EAO Board on notice to the global village rather than just Egypt. Is anyone aware of and care to share who is on the Board currently re EAO asil breeding decisions?
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diane
post Jan 25 2012, 10:30 AM
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bump
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JacqueB
post Jan 25 2012, 12:49 PM
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I was rereading your comments Diane that you made prior to your "bump" reply after having just read the background article in se.com on Kamillah who did well at the stallion testing which concludes with a photo of her. She's a pretty square built Arab, not the rectangle with alot of length & curve at the throatlatch that you see in the FEI dressage horses or jumpers. But because she was brought along over a period of years typical of sporthorse training wisdom, especially eventing (lots of cross country riding) & had good trainers in the field - Waalaa, she does the work successfully (taking into account the intrinsic willingness of the horse & ability to stay sound).
Good substantiation on your thoughts on the matter.
As an aside, I think people do not realize that the well trained horse takes good people & quite a few years(several) & over that time, could be thousands of dollars(easily totaling 10's of $1000's) if you are not doing the riding yourself (many hours of knowledgeable time spent on the back of the horse each week).
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diane
post Mar 10 2012, 12:11 PM
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thanks, Jacque. sad.gif to have missed your post prior to this

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HLM
post Mar 11 2012, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (Fl Z @ Sep 6 2010, 11:14 AM) *
I have just finished a new book that was published here in Cairo. It is called “The Egyptian Alternative. A Guide to Arabian breeding” by Philippe Paraskevas who has been breeding here for a number of years. I am very happy because the book is honest and truthful. There are many beautiful passages about the Arabian horse with wonderful quotes from some early Arab writers and horseman.

The book shows a lot of thought and research and I like that it does not make any promotion for any individual horse or breeder. Mostly I am happy that a book was finally published by an Egyptian breeder that gives respect to the Arabian horse.

Dani Barbary
Shams El Assil Farm
Cairo, Egypt



dear dani

so nice to see you posting here with your signature. I agree with you totally. It took courage to come forwad as Mr Philippe Paraskevas did, which I admire.

I have both copies of his book and truly like them and hope that many people with also get both, to learn to understand more and get the courage to also speak up.

Yes, IT TAKES COURAGE, and I am so happy to see how well it is received and there has been no "flack".

Take care Dani, hope to see you again some day soon. God bless you

Hansi
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