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Marilyn Lang
post Sep 27 2010, 02:40 AM
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I am not very far into the book but already I find myself somewhat side tracked by the fact that the author does not seem to want to give anyone from the West one iota of credit for the salvation of the straight Egyptian as we know it today. As I said, not that far into the book yet to make an opinion one way or the other but it would appear that the author feels the straight Egyptian as designated by the PS would have survived and probably on a much better scale without the interference of the West. That is simply not true. I think the West was the salvation of the straight Egyptian. Now if we are discussing more than the straight Egyptian as classified by the PS, then that is entirely a different discussion. Again, not that far into the book so will back off any opinion one way or the other until I have read the entire book. Everyone is entitiled to their opinion on the history of the Egyptian Arabian horse. Maybe I am being just a little defensive but that is of course my perogative and my personality. Ha!

Marilyn
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karin
post Sep 27 2010, 08:07 AM
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Marilyn,

You certainly have a good point to say that ofcourse the West did a good thing that time by buying and exporting SE horses. That was a very good thing.

What do you mean exactly by PS?

Karin
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Avalondales Egyp...
post Sep 27 2010, 11:56 AM
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Marilyn,

I agree in some areas the West is not given credit for in some instances rescuing the horses literally while Egypt was in a state of war.. The vibe I get when I read the book is the anger if you will call it that is intermingled with the halter show ring, excessive inbreeding, and looking to make the big money off the horses... There is an awareness and perhaps regret in Egypt in regards to all the treasures that have been taken from them and their horse is one of those treasures.

The only disagreement I have with the Author is the day the Desertbred Arabian walked off the desert he became a horse of the world.. The West may not have had access to him yet, but we admired and coveted him until we could bring him to all four corners of the world. Tracy
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ghosny
post Sep 27 2010, 01:54 PM
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QUOTE (Avalondales Egyptian Arabians @ Sep 27 2010, 12:56 PM) *
Marilyn,

I agree in some areas the West is not given credit for in some instances rescuing the horses literally while Egypt was in a state of war.. The vibe I get when I read the book is the anger if you will call it that is intermingled with the halter show ring, excessive inbreeding, and looking to make the big money off the horses... There is an awareness and perhaps regret in Egypt in regards to all the treasures that have been taken from them and their horse is one of those treasures.

The only disagreement I have with the Author is the day the Desertbred Arabian walked off the desert he became a horse of the world.. The West may not have had access to him yet, but we admired and coveted him until we could bring him to all four corners of the world. Tracy


courage , thought provoking ,....etc hmmmthe fact is it doesn't take courage to publish a book that interprets history in a way that would suit the author, it doesn't take courage to undermine the contribution of everyone who loved and cared for the horse for the last 200 years, it doesn't take courage to try and promote a breeding philosophy that the author fails to illustrate in any way for that matter. The author is angry not because he is an egyptian who is j protective of his heritage for he doesn't even consider it his heritage.You can describe writing this book in many ways but courage is not the word. It takes courage to demonstrate to the world his work which he refuses , it takes courage and integrity to appreciate and accept the contribution of everyone in the development of this horse including the west , it takes courage to admit that the conclusions that are reached about the quality of horses in Egypt are based , as far as the author is concerned, on hearsay and not first hand observations. Courage I don't think so......... Since the author so cleverly started this thread why doesn't he engage us all and enter in a constructive discussion on this forum. Now that would be courage........
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Gari
post Sep 27 2010, 02:03 PM
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Let me say that I've not read the book and surely look forward to doing so. That said, IF the argument is that the West stop breeding for the show ring and get back to that creature of the desert-good luck! For so many reasons:

1) Desert horses defined survival of the fittest. In the West grass and enhanced nutrition are abundant as well as vets to oversee a horse's well being. If survival of the fittest were practiced in the West owners would end up going to jail on any number of counts.....

2) Desert horses looks changed when confronted with the West's available nutrition. From gestation in the womb to birth to growing up the look of the Arabian changed often in just one one generation.

3) Don't know about Western Europe but in the US we have an outfit called the IRS that demands profits within 7 years or one can't write-off the horses. That is the driving force behind showring competition....and why we see so many leave the business after just those first 7 years because they haven't figured out how to breed the horses properly.

That is off the top of my head and having not read the book could be way off base but think those that have can certainly add to the observations perhaps noting conformational differences that the desert environment enhanced but we would define as a disaster in the West, e.g., larger heads with greater cranial capacity; slight turn out in the front legs that made paddling through sand more efficient; balanced necks that kept the horse more coordinated than the loooong necks that seem to be the sine qua non of the showring-oh so necessary to a win in the US.
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Saazar
post Sep 27 2010, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE (Abbasiyah @ Sep 22 2010, 02:17 AM) *
I received the book yesterday and sat down to read it after feeding. I couldn't put it down!! Personally I did not find it insulting to anyone but rather an impassioned plea for the soul of the Arabian and for breeders to focus on breeding to preserve or to restore the desert bred characteristics of our Egyptian Arabians. I agree with many of his observations about the current show ring and the direction that it is leading us. I most certainly hope that the EAO remains as the guardian of ALL the family lines and that it does not succumb to the pressure of the one IDEAL Arabian type doctrine. This book both stimulated me as a small breeder who is trying to preserve the desert bred characteristics in my own breeding programme and who is concerned with the direction that our Arabian has taken. Further it also depresses and scares me with thoughts of the loss of the EAO and not having this valuable source blood for the future. I don't agree with the WESTERN ways of showing so it stands to reason that I agree with his comments on what is going on in the shows. I also agree with him on the fact that judging standards need to be changed. All in all this is IMHO a great book that goes to the very heart of all the problems we are seeing in this industry. I too am looking forward to more people reading this book and hopefully they can finally SEE now what so many of us have been talking about for years.

Judi



Judi - I agree with your overview of the book. In my opinion it is a book all egyptian breeders need to read, digest and install in their breeding programs. Our gene pool is already limited, we need to make use of all bloodlines available to us and move past the linebreeding/inbreeding. I did hear the issue of linebreeding vs inbreeding was brought up at the breeders conferance during the discussion on genetics. We are seeing more and more genetic faults as we narrow our gene pool more and more. I agree with much of what the author of this book states in this book. It certainly provides food for thought. As for the author's discussion of the Western influence, if you look at most of the straight egyptian breeding programs of the middle east they are dominated by one bloodline and as a result are seeing a high volume of genetic issues, I think the author is asking breeders to open their minds and bring in new outcross blood to strenghten their herds.

Amy
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ghosny
post Sep 27 2010, 03:33 PM
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QUOTE (Gari @ Sep 27 2010, 03:03 PM) *
Let me say that I've not read the book and surely look forward to doing so. That said, IF the argument is that the West stop breeding for the show ring and get back to that creature of the desert-good luck! For so many reasons:

1) Desert horses defined survival of the fittest. In the West grass and enhanced nutrition are abundant as well as vets to oversee a horse's well being. If survival of the fittest were practiced in the West owners would end up going to jail on any number of counts.....

2) Desert horses looks changed when confronted with the West's available nutrition. From gestation in the womb to birth to growing up the look of the Arabian changed often in just one one generation.

3) Don't know about Western Europe but in the US we have an outfit called the IRS that demands profits within 7 years or one can't write-off the horses. That is the driving force behind showring competition....and why we see so many leave the business after just those first 7 years because they haven't figured out how to breed the horses properly.

That is off the top of my head and having not read the book could be way off base but think those that have can certainly add to the observations perhaps noting conformational differences that the desert environment enhanced but we would define as a disaster in the West, e.g., larger heads with greater cranial capacity; slight turn out in the front legs that made paddling through sand more efficient; balanced necks that kept the horse more coordinated than the loooong necks that seem to be the sine qua non of the showring-oh so necessary to a win in the US.



There is a lot of soul searching going on and some of the people commenting on this thread keep talking about the desert horse and the qualities that were lost etc...including ofcourse the courageous author who is torn apart because the desert horse has been degraded bla bla ..etc etc It also seems to me that many of who write here have little knowledge of how this horse evolved over the years ...etc. Someone suggested African Horse Sickness may have been the reason that the Egyptians didn't bring new blood from Arabia. I suggest for those to read the EAO book vol 1 and go over what Ashoub wrote are the reasons.

For those who claim that the Egyptians never defined the egyptian horse let me just say that the breeding programs in Egypt defined the horse. There was no need for a definition , the definition introduced by the Pyramid Society recognized the superior quality of the horses bred in Egypt and urged people to breed only those lines that were used in those programs. it was a testimonial to the master breeders in Egypt and not in Arabia . Those are undeniable facts. So for someone to claim that Egypt did not define the horse is just laughable . Definitions and formulas don't define the horse , actual breeding does. As for the purists, the blue, the black , the green lists ..etc that have taken the definition further this is different then breeding.
The Egyptian breeders don't need to fit in a puzzle , it is there heritage even if this greek author fails to see it, their ancestors laid the foundation and it is up to the rest of the world to catch up.
You define a horse by producing a form not a formula . Now we hear a lot about this never ending , instrument of war....and all those poetic verses. Can someone deifne for me what this all means or what form does it translate into...

It is also laughable to think that the reason the author did not put pictures in his book is because he loaths self promotion . This whole book is about self promotion. Anyone who claims he has the answer should share with the world his findings , how else would he substantiate all those claims......think about it or maybe not

What is puzzling is why the people claiming that the horse has deteriorated since he left the desert are still breeding straight egyptians . Why don't they ,including the author, start their own club or pursue their own vision of an Arabian horse. According to them the horse from the get go was defective. The RAS and EAO horses included.

I hope Mrs. Al Barbary who is a staunch opponent of imported Egyptians and who started this thread can maybe explain to us what her thinking was when she imported a spanish arabian stallion to include in her breeding program twenty some odd years ago? What qualities was she hoping to introduce and how importing Straight egyptian horses would be discouraged especially by her. Maybe the author can share with us his thoughts on this puzzling matter.......

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Saazar
post Sep 27 2010, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (ghosny @ Sep 27 2010, 04:33 PM) *
There is a lot of soul searching going on and some of the people commenting on this thread keep talking about the desert horse and the qualities that were lost etc...including ofcourse the courageous author who is torn apart because the desert horse has been degraded bla bla ..etc etc It also seems to me that many of who write here have little knowledge of how this horse evolved over the years ...etc. Someone suggested African Horse Sickness may have been the reason that the Egyptians didn't bring new blood from Arabia. I suggest for those to read the EAO book vol 1 and go over what Ashoub wrote are the reasons.

For those who claim that the Egyptians never defined the egyptian horse let me just say that the breeding programs in Egypt defined the horse. There was no need for a definition , the definition introduced by the Pyramid Society recognized the superior quality of the horses bred in Egypt and urged people to breed only those lines that were used in those programs. it was a testimonial to the master breeders in Egypt and not in Arabia . Those are undeniable facts. So for someone to claim that Egypt did not define the horse is just laughable . Definitions and formulas don't define the horse , actual breeding does. As for the purists, the blue, the black , the green lists ..etc that have taken the definition further this is different then breeding.
The Egyptian breeders don't need to fit in a puzzle , it is there heritage even if this greek author fails to see it, their ancestors laid the foundation and it is up to the rest of the world to catch up.
You define a horse by producing a form not a formula . Now we hear a lot about this never ending , instrument of war....and all those poetic verses. Can someone deifne for me what this all means or what form does it translate into...

It is also laughable to think that the reason the author did not put pictures in his book is because he loaths self promotion . This whole book is about self promotion. Anyone who claims he has the answer should share with the world his findings , how else would he substantiate all those claims......think about it or maybe not

What is puzzling is why the people claiming that the horse has deteriorated since he left the desert are still breeding straight egyptians . Why don't they ,including the author, start their own club or pursue their own vision of an Arabian horse. According to them the horse from the get go was defective. The RAS and EAO horses included.

I hope Mrs. Al Barbary who is a staunch opponent of imported Egyptians and who started this thread can maybe explain to us what her thinking was when she imported a spanish arabian stallion to include in her breeding program twenty some odd years ago? What qualities was she hoping to introduce and how importing Straight egyptian horses would be discouraged especially by her. Maybe the author can share with us his thoughts on this puzzling matter.......




Ghosny - would you mind signing your posts? You obvioulsy feel strongly about this book so please let us know who you are

Thanks,
Amy
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Bebah
post Sep 27 2010, 07:06 PM
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I agree Marylin, If the west had not been breeding in Paraskevas's, so called, unconscionable way, for the past 50 years The Straight Egyptian would most likely be extinct by now.
I too was sidetracked by Philipe's existentialist posture on breeding the Egyptian Arabian.

I believe that the majority of SE breeders breed to a breed standard. And Many do it very well. I believed we all breed to improve and preserve. And if we have been influenced by Forbis, Nagel, Babson, Marshall's, and so many others.
So be it. I have found much more worthwhile information under their tutelage than I am finding in Paraskeves' book.

I totally disagree that we have bred out the heart and courage of the SE. I think many of the horses in my barn would be ready and willing to go into battle, run 'til they dropped, whatever, if they were asked. We just don't go into battle here in the mid-west on horseback much anymore. And it is our fault that more of our horses are not brought out in other performance disciplines

I would be curious to know how many, pure in strain, SE horses are left in the world. Certainly in this country strains have become outcrossed and become very dilute. Is that a bad thing ? I think not. I think this is the same theory that Paraskevas is advocating with different semantics

I resent the way he leads the reader along by the nose, with his quotes , "and if you believe that you must believe this."

I think Mr. Paraskevas is an anachronism and would have been happier if he had lived a century ago.

Undoubtedly Mr. P is more knowledgeable about the SE Arabian than I. The difference being, I like what I know.
. .
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phanilah
post Sep 27 2010, 07:17 PM
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I finished reading my copy last night and while I don't agree with everything the author believes, I think the book is a must read for all breeders and it needs to be read carefully and not just skimmed. Also, don't jump to conclusions too early and don't let your brain turn off if you hit something you don't agree with. IMO, there is a lot of food for thought within the covers and rarely do long held beliefs sit quietly when being challenged. wink.gif

For anyone who doesn't yet have the book, the current issue of the Arabian Horse World magazine has an extensive book review on this book...well worth reading for a preliminary look at the contents.

Beth
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ghosny
post Sep 27 2010, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE (Saazar @ Sep 27 2010, 05:00 PM) *
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Ghosny - would you mind signing your posts? You obvioulsy feel strongly about this book so please let us know who you are

Thanks,
Amy



All you need to do is to look at the small box in the left corner of my posts to realize that it was me who posted / If you are interested further ,my first name is Gamal if this means anything to you . I am 42 years old , single and just starting new as I have mentioned in my previous posts .I continue to be amused by the people that consider themselves experts in breeding this horse and freely lend advise that they can not substantiate .. I have visited with many of the breeders and have developed very strong opinions right or wrong about certain aspects of this industry. Maybe you can share with us who you are .It is possible that everyone else knows you but I don't because I am usually only interested in the arguments that are put forward. They could be posted by master breeders or by starting breeders or by just lovers of the breed that cannot afford to breed. I do have strong feelings about the contents of the book do you? You see it is not enough to make statements like this is a mind provoking , courageous attempt ..etc etc tell us know why and if you agree with what the author puts forward then please share with us why is it that you are still breeding straight egyptians. GAMAL
PS. The wars were the not reason Egypt sold a lot of horses in 60' and 70" . There was a changing of the guards so to speak and breeding horses for a government that had just deposed the King was , to say the least, the least of their problems and was a symbol of aristocracy .
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Avalondales Egyp...
post Sep 27 2010, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE (Gari @ Sep 27 2010, 03:03 PM) *
Let me say that I've not read the book and surely look forward to doing so. That said, IF the argument is that the West stop breeding for the show ring and get back to that creature of the desert-good luck! For so many reasons:

1) Desert horses defined survival of the fittest. In the West grass and enhanced nutrition are abundant as well as vets to oversee a horse's well being. If survival of the fittest were practiced in the West owners would end up going to jail on any number of counts.....

2) Desert horses looks changed when confronted with the West's available nutrition. From gestation in the womb to birth to growing up the look of the Arabian changed often in just one one generation.

3) Don't know about Western Europe but in the US we have an outfit called the IRS that demands profits within 7 years or one can't write-off the horses. That is the driving force behind showring competition....and why we see so many leave the business after just those first 7 years because they haven't figured out how to breed the horses properly.

That is off the top of my head and having not read the book could be way off base but think those that have can certainly add to the observations perhaps noting conformational differences that the desert environment enhanced but we would define as a disaster in the West, e.g., larger heads with greater cranial capacity; slight turn out in the front legs that made paddling through sand more efficient; balanced necks that kept the horse more coordinated than the loooong necks that seem to be the sine qua non of the showring-oh so necessary to a win in the US.


Gari,

I suppose you would need to read the book.. Your points are valid, but it is a bit more than just showing... It needs to be read with an open mind.. Many issues: Inbreeding versus outcrossing, judging the Egyptian Horse, horses imported back to Egypt, and the EAO.. Tracy
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ghosny
post Sep 27 2010, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE (phanilah @ Sep 27 2010, 08:17 PM) *
I finished reading my copy last night and while I don't agree with everything the author believes, I think the book is a must read for all breeders and it needs to be read carefully and not just skimmed. Also, don't jump to conclusions too early and don't let your brain turn off if you hit something you don't agree with. IMO, there is a lot of food for thought within the covers and rarely do long held beliefs sit quietly when being challenged. wink.gif

For anyone who doesn't yet have the book, the current issue of the Arabian Horse World magazine has an extensive book review on this book...well worth reading for a preliminary look at the contents.

Beth



For those of you who are not aware the author paid a pretty penny ( tens of thousands of dollars) to have this review published in the Arabian Horse World. You need to understand that this was a paid ad so everything that is said in the magazine should be taken with a grain of salt. This is not a rumor but a fact and anyone interested can easily verify this info. So those out there who believe that the author is not self promoting think again........
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phanilah
post Sep 27 2010, 10:47 PM
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QUOTE (ghosny @ Sep 28 2010, 12:32 AM) *
For those of you who are not aware the author paid a pretty penny ( tens of thousands of dollars) to have this review published in the Arabian Horse World. You need to understand that this was a paid ad so everything that is said in the magazine should be taken with a grain of salt. This is not a rumor but a fact and anyone interested can easily verify this info. So those out there who believe that the author is not self promoting think again........


Have you actually read the review? If so, then you know it is mostly quotes from the book with some overall comment on what the author says - hardly anything that needs to be taken with a grain of salt....it is what it is. Given the length of the review, I wouldn't be surprised if it was paid for...but it wouldn't be the first time someone paid for editorial coverage in a magazine.

While I appreciate you have your opinion on this book, your obvious bias makes it difficult to not see that you appear to have an agenda set...and following your own words - some of your comments regarding this book might need to be "taken with a grain of salt." Why not let people read for themselves and then make their own decision...instead of, what appears to be, a continued effort to try to discredit the author?

Beth
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Avalondales Egyp...
post Sep 27 2010, 11:01 PM
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Geez Hosny,

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.. A few things I will say in regards to some of your comments are YES... African Horse Sickness was the reason for importation of the Blunt Bloodlines...There would have been no Nazeer without it and Ibn Hafiza was the last horse within SE designations that didn't have Blunt Bloodlines..The RAS also went back to Arabia for outcross Nabras, El Deree, and Mashan are a few that come to mind and are considered foundation horses. In regards to the 60's and 70's, I beg to differ Egypt was at war with Israel.. King Farouk was deposed in 1952, that would be when the changing of the guard started... Perhaps, you should do some reading in regards to the modern Western Importers as during the importations of the the post 58 horses there were many bumpy rides due to war..

You are entitled to your strong feelings as this book will surely inflame many.. Personal attacks so not cool.. Since you have asked for accomplishments here is one of mine...Perhaps you will share some of your accomplishments.. Tracy
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