This site requires the Adobe Flash Player.
straightegyptians

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> P. Paraskevas' New Book, lets discuss it?
Al Ubayyan
post Feb 6 2011, 04:37 PM
Post #1


Member
**

Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 6-February 11
Member No.: 37599



Im not new to sE.com but I havent been here in a while.
I no longer own or breed the sE. or the Egyptian horse but why should that exclude people such as myself from coming to sites such as sE.com to discuss them in an atmosphere of respect?

I recently bought the book by Philippe Pasraskevas titled The Egyptian Alternative. Now from the title one might automatically think Mr. Paraskevas has a problem with Egyptian horses in general. That maybe he is the main problem with such a book because of its title.
What Ive found, reading this book is almost total agreement to its authors viewpoint. Mr. Paraskeva who is of greek origin but was born in Egypt puts his viewpoints in the most eloquent and respectful way as well while making many profound statements. One such statement is that once the Arabian horse left its desert homeland of Arabia it became a refugee.

I suggest if you love the Arabian breed and especially if you breed them that this is a book you will not want to miss out on.

Im wondering if anyone else here has read it and what parts of it do you or dont you agree with?

Id love to discuss The Egyptain Alternative with others here who have read the book and I guess even those who havent as well. biggrin.gif .
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Al Ubayyan
post Feb 6 2011, 05:33 PM
Post #2


Member
**

Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 6-February 11
Member No.: 37599



Oh yea, I forgot to mention my name is Troy Patterson. Im American and have been nvolved with Arabian horses for 20 something years.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Al Ubayyan
post Feb 7 2011, 02:25 PM
Post #3


Member
**

Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 6-February 11
Member No.: 37599



One of the concepts Mr. Pasraskevas brings to the light of day is this...to breed horses not only by strain but to breed by bloodlines and then show those against each catagorically instead of this silly notion of breeding for the ideal Arabian.
Im paraphasing:
Breeding for the "Ideal Arabian" he says is detrimental to the whole breed becasuse it is making to many cookie cutter beauty contestants out of the breed at large. This "ideal Arabian" way of breeding is also affecting the breed because disposition is not given first and foremost consideration. If it was, we would not be seeing so many horses with heads that are so extreme, legs like broken matchsticks and most all horses that are shown looking more like Saqlawi than anything else.
I say to for that matter, in the place where we all got this idea of the "Ideal Arabian" there would of been more pages written about disposition than written about the conformation, and that "the head is the hallmark" type stuff.
If we all had read about disposition being most important as we were all jumping on that
"Ideal" bandwagon I know the Arabian breed as a whole would be better for it. There is no sense crying over spilt milk though.
What we have to work with now is what is really important. Oh and not repeating past mistakes.
We could have shows where there is a Nazeer Champion. A Gassir Champion, A Morafic Champion. A Sameh champion etc.
Of course I agree with him. Wouldnt it be refreshing to show horses in this way? Then have ridden classes as well to include the same? Mr. Pasraskevas is mostly addressing his fellow Egyptian Breeders in Egypt because in essense the West has been dictating to the rest of the world including Egypt, how things should be done concerning the Arabian horse when maybe at least breeders in Egypt should really start thinking for themselves.

Today does anyone see horses shown in Halter anywhere in the world that dont look more like the Saqlawi type than any other? Im sure their is an exception to every rule but Id like to see multiple examples of other types in the showring, namely in Halter classes. smile.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Abbasiyah
post Feb 7 2011, 03:57 PM
Post #4


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1010
Joined: 17-March 03
Member No.: 110



Hi Troy,

This book has been mentioned here before and on the other forums. It would be great if we could have a good discussion about the book on this forum.
In the spirit of trying to move the discussion forward I have copied my post from the other forum.

I received the book yesterday and sat down to read it after feeding. I couldn't put it down!! Personally I did not find it insulting to anyone but rather an impassioned plea for the soul of the Arabian and for breeders to focus on breeding to preserve or to restore the desert bred characteristics of our Egyptian Arabians. I agree with many of his observations about the current show ring and the direction that it is leading us. I most certainly hope that the EAO remains as the guardian of ALL the family lines and that it does not succumb to the pressure of the one IDEAL Arabian type doctrine. This book both stimulated me as a small breeder who is trying to preserve the desert bred characteristics in my own breeding programme and who is concerned with the direction that our Arabian has taken. Further it also depresses and scares me with thoughts of the loss of the EAO and not having this valuable source blood for the future. I don't agree with the WESTERN ways of showing so it stands to reason that I agree with his comments on what is going on in the shows. I also agree with him on the fact that judging standards need to be changed. All in all this is IMHO a great book that goes to the very heart of all the problems we are seeing in this industry. I too am looking forward to more people reading this book and hopefully they can finally SEE now what so many of us have been talking about for years.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
diane
post Feb 10 2011, 10:20 AM
Post #5


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 2218
Joined: 18-March 03
From: Vale View, Toowoomba, Australia
Member No.: 117



Here's the link for you Troy... http://www.straightegyptians.com/forum2/in...st&p=374890
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Al Ubayyan
post Feb 10 2011, 02:52 PM
Post #6


Member
**

Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 6-February 11
Member No.: 37599



Thanks for the link Diane.

"The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard." David Gerrold

Just last night I read this quote for the first time and considered putting it in my signature line. I wont do it now. Its good you have it. Its interesting though that just this morning you reply to this thread and you have it in your signature line.
Just goes to show how sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
diane
post Feb 11 2011, 10:20 PM
Post #7


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 2218
Joined: 18-March 03
From: Vale View, Toowoomba, Australia
Member No.: 117



QUOTE (Al Ubayyan @ Feb 11 2011, 12:52 AM) *
Thanks for the link Diane.

"The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard." David Gerrold

Just last night I read this quote for the first time and considered putting it in my signature line. I wont do it now. Its good you have it. Its interesting though that just this morning you reply to this thread and you have it in your signature line.
Just goes to show how sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.

Please, do use it. The more it's seen / read, the more it reinforces the truth smile.gif

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dave
post Feb 13 2011, 02:38 AM
Post #8


Senior Member
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 249
Joined: 23-November 05
Member No.: 2920



I'm almost done reading the book and I will get volumn 2. I don't own or breed SEs but my Polish mares have Egyptian lines.

This book applies to the breed as a whole particularly the need to take performance into breeding classes.

Paraskevas has put into print what many of us have been thinking for years. We owe him a debt of graditute.

Dave
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
diane
post Jan 25 2012, 10:29 AM
Post #9


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 2218
Joined: 18-March 03
From: Vale View, Toowoomba, Australia
Member No.: 117



Amazon The Egyptian Alternative: In Search of the Identity of the Egyptian Arabian Bloodlines (Volume II) is now available via Amazon.

QUOTE
This book is a clarion call for revolution in the way breeders view, and breed, Egyptian Arabian Horses. in Vol.I Philippe Paraskevas challenged many current notions about breeding & horse showing practices, his primary concern being to safeguard the future of the Egyptian Arabian horse. In this volume he examines in great detail the E.A.O bloodpool- its different strains & sirelines, its antecedents & potential. he delves into the complexities of reading pedigrees, describing strains, sub-strains & horse families as well as the benefits of preservation breeding and outcrossing. this is a breeder's guide to the detailed genealogies of different strains as this writer chooses to read the vertical charts. The author takes a critical look at the effect of the fragmentation of what once was simply the Desert Arabian into a multitude of sub-categories as defined by a variety of associations of breeders. He defines the principles and plan of action required to ensure the rebirth of the Desert Arabian and gives us hope that there is still a way forward. The Publisher




smile.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HLM
post Jan 25 2012, 04:42 PM
Post #10


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1275
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192



QUOTE (diane @ Jan 25 2012, 12:29 PM) *
Amazon The Egyptian Alternative: In Search of the Identity of the Egyptian Arabian Bloodlines (Volume II) is now available via Amazon.





smile.gif



I have received the VOLUME II and consider it a MASTERPIECE. There are so few people left who have the courage to come forward, share their opinions and educate.

this book is a MUST i I feel to own. it teaches so much, reminds us of so much.

Hansi
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Abbasiyah
post Jan 26 2012, 12:42 AM
Post #11


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1010
Joined: 17-March 03
Member No.: 110



QUOTE (HLM @ Jan 25 2012, 10:42 AM) *
I have received the VOLUME II and consider it a MASTERPIECE. There are so few people left who have the courage to come forward, share their opinions and educate.

this book is a MUST i I feel to own. it teaches so much, reminds us of so much.

Hansi



I wholeheartedly agree with Hansi's statement above. I have received VOL II and it is fabulous. I really appreciate the work Philippe has put into this book and yes his courage to come out and share his opinions. IMHO every serious breeder of the Desert Arabian/Straight Egyptian needs to read this book. Thank you Philippe!!!

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2mntn
post Mar 10 2012, 12:02 AM
Post #12


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 3789
Joined: 11-January 07
From: Two Mountain Ranch, Nampa, Idaho USA
Member No.: 4862



I have read both volumes of The Egyptian Alternative. In my opinion, they are the best works of their kind of this century, and probably about half of the last.

The Egyptian Alternative, Volume I, had me puzzled until I understood the context - which is: EAO bloodlines AT the EAO, past and present, along with questions for the future of the program AT the EAO and, by default, breeders of the Egyptian Arabian everywhere. If I understand Philippe correctly, an aversion to using some bloodlines, such as those of Inshass, exists in Egypt and other locations. Factually stated is that many sire and dam lines have been lost AT the EAO. Fortunately, these lines are not lost TO the EAO because these lines exist outside of Egypt and could be reclaimed AT the EAO. Personally, my experience with Egyptian bloodlines has been somewhat blessed in that almost all the lines lost AT the EAO, as well as those great lines from Inshass, are available here in the United States. For instance, I can easily find El Deree, Jamil El Kebir and Zobeyni sire lines, as well as low or non-Nazeer lines. I can find bloodlines with no Inshass or bloodlines with quite a bit of Inshass. We are fortunate in that respect.

Like many readers, I had to wonder at some of the questions posed by Philippe in Vol I, as I had no understanding of his background as a breeder. I wondered how his personal experiences with the horses were brought to bear on the subject. Of course there was a short bio on Philippe in Volume I, but my real questions about him were answered by the Arabian Horse World magazine article which featured his program. No amount of words can support the validity of a long-term program, and the person behind it, like a few professional photographs. For my taste, the classic, desert Arabian type and quality of the horses bred by Philippe are surpassed by none. A person would have to be blind and deaf to not see and hear "I am an Arabian!" fairly shining and shouting right off the pages. That article was end-of-story for me with regard to any questioning of Philippe’s credentials. His horses speak for him, much louder and more eloquently than words. As an example, here is a video link to El Sit, a young filly bred and owned by Philippe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...p;v=MIcl_l4sx9g

The Egyptian Alternative, Volume II, represents a great deal of research, correlation and distilling of vital information on the EAO bloodlines and presenting it in an informative and practical way. This volume is a must-have for serious breeders of EAO bloodlines. With regard to the prospects for the future of the EAO, I can only wonder why the EAO does not take charge of its own destiny. There is nothing preventing the EAO from reclaiming lost lines. There is nothing preventing the EAO from incorporating other asil lines, such as those to be found in Bahrain, Syria and Saudi, to name a few. There is absolutely no reason for the EAO to "bow" to the "ideals" of the West. Leadership from the EAO is all that is needed, using its own judgment and ignoring all others, in order to proceed in doing the right thing for the future of the Egyptian Arabian. That "right thing" would be to use the recipe of the past to produce a solution for the future. A judicious incorporation of carefully selected individuals would not only be expected, but applauded and widely accepted – in my opinion. If leadership does not come from the EAO, and soon, it will come from elsewhere and this will spell the end for the EAO as anything other than an interesting historical footnote.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
diane
post Mar 10 2012, 11:53 AM
Post #13


Gold Member
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 2218
Joined: 18-March 03
From: Vale View, Toowoomba, Australia
Member No.: 117



Nice, Ray... my own thoughts from sometime back
QUOTE (diane @ Nov 18 2010, 08:37 AM) *
Regarding the conclusions... my thoughts...
<snipped>
The book is primarily written for Egyptians. The author writes about why he chose to publish in English first and offered globally, so I feel there is a subtle message there for westerners. The author suggests an Egyptian version is to be published in the future. This first publishing is in English with global distribution. Amongst other issues, perhaps he's also put the new EAO Board on notice to the global village rather than just Egypt. Is anyone aware of and care to share who is on the Board currently re EAO asil breeding decisions?


QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 10 2012, 10:02 AM) *
The Egyptian Alternative, Volume II, represents a great deal of research, correlation and distilling of vital information on the EAO bloodlines and presenting it in an informative and practical way. This volume is a must-have for serious breeders of EAO bloodlines. With regard to the prospects for the future of the EAO, I can only wonder why the EAO does not take charge of its own destiny. There is nothing preventing the EAO from reclaiming lost lines. There is nothing preventing the EAO from incorporating other asil lines, such as those to be found in Bahrain, Syria and Saudi, to name a few. There is absolutely no reason for the EAO to "bow" to the "ideals" of the West. Leadership from the EAO is all that is needed, using its own judgment and ignoring all others, in order to proceed in doing the right thing for the future of the Egyptian Arabian. That "right thing" would be to use the recipe of the past to produce a solution for the future. A judicious incorporation of carefully selected individuals would not only be expected, but applauded and widely accepted – in my opinion. If leadership does not come from the EAO, and soon, it will come from elsewhere and this will spell the end for the EAO as anything other than an interesting historical footnote.


There were no answers to my question. Any takers this time? Wondering why?... perhaps the EAO Board feels safe and somewhat secure if there is no accountability. There is now accountability.

You are right - Volume ll bolsters Volume l and both are excellent.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Abbasiyah
post Mar 10 2012, 04:23 PM
Post #14


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1010
Joined: 17-March 03
Member No.: 110



Well I will triple the endorsement of these books as being just fabulous and as Ray put it probably some of the best written works of this century. This is not to dispel the books written by others but these books are not marketing based books mixed with history.

Ray... and Diane.... I could not have said it any better....

With regard to the prospects for the future of the EAO, I can only wonder why the EAO does not take charge of its own destiny. There is nothing preventing the EAO from reclaiming lost lines. There is nothing preventing the EAO from incorporating other asil lines, such as those to be found in Bahrain, Syria and Saudi, to name a few. There is absolutely no reason for the EAO to "bow" to the "ideals" of the West. Leadership from the EAO is all that is needed, using its own judgment and ignoring all others, in order to proceed in doing the right thing for the future of the Egyptian Arabian. That "right thing" would be to use the recipe of the past to produce a solution for the future. A judicious incorporation of carefully selected individuals would not only be expected, but applauded and widely accepted – in my opinion. If leadership does not come from the EAO, and soon, it will come from elsewhere and this will spell the end for the EAO as anything other than an interesting historical footnote.

I agree with Ray as written above and with Diane in previous posts.....It's time that the EAO took charge of their own destiny AND stopped taking direction from Western originated Societies even though these Societies have been. to date, highly successful in the promotion of their ideals and in the identification of what they consider is a "Straight Egyptian" Arabian throughout the World... Should not the EAO be designating the parameters as to ... what is an Asil, "Straight Egyptian" Arabian?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HLM
post Mar 11 2012, 02:03 PM
Post #15


Advanced Senior Member
******

Group: Members
Posts: 1275
Joined: 21-March 03
Member No.: 192



QUOTE (Al Ubayyan @ Feb 7 2011, 04:25 PM) *
One of the concepts Mr. Pasraskevas brings to the light of day is this...to breed horses not only by strain but to breed by bloodlines and then show those against each catagorically instead of this silly notion of breeding for the ideal Arabian.
Im paraphasing:
Breeding for the "Ideal Arabian" he says is detrimental to the whole breed becasuse it is making to many cookie cutter beauty contestants out of the breed at large. This "ideal Arabian" way of breeding is also affecting the breed because disposition is not given first and foremost consideration. If it was, we would not be seeing so many horses with heads that are so extreme, legs like broken matchsticks and most all horses that are shown looking more like Saqlawi than anything else.
I say to for that matter, in the place where we all got this idea of the "Ideal Arabian" there would of been more pages written about disposition than written about the conformation, and that "the head is the hallmark" type stuff.
If we all had read about disposition being most important as we were all jumping on that
"Ideal" bandwagon I know the Arabian breed as a whole would be better for it. There is no sense crying over spilt milk though.
What we have to work with now is what is really important. Oh and not repeating past mistakes.
We could have shows where there is a Nazeer Champion. A Gassir Champion, A Morafic Champion. A Sameh champion etc.
Of course I agree with him. Wouldnt it be refreshing to show horses in this way? Then have ridden classes as well to include the same? Mr. Pasraskevas is mostly addressing his fellow Egyptian Breeders in Egypt because in essense the West has been dictating to the rest of the world including Egypt, how things should be done concerning the Arabian horse when maybe at least breeders in Egypt should really start thinking for themselves.

Today does anyone see horses shown in Halter anywhere in the world that dont look more like the Saqlawi type than any other? Im sure their is an exception to every rule but Id like to see multiple examples of other types in the showring, namely in Halter classes. smile.gif



Hi there

What I admire so much is the courage the author has of speaking his mind/opinion with explanations, and how well this is received by those who have these 2 books.

Personally I feel it is a MUST to have both, to learn to understand FACTS and or opnions which can be verified by various researchers.

It is so refreshing to have such non-political books available and learn from it.

Take cre
hansi
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 24th July 2014 - 00:16
This site requires the Adobe Flash Player.