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> Kuhaylan Moradi?
Erna Kornelis
post Mar 17 2003, 11:42 AM
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Hello!
Glad you are back again! Unfortunately, all the photos are lost!!! :(

Well, I have been waiting eagerly, because I wanted to ask if a strain named Kuhaylan Moradi exists? I am triying to get the family/strain of a mare tracing back to Sahara Slepka / Sahara and found on the web "kuhaylan Moradi". She is non SE, mostly Polish Blood on motherside. Because it's the mother wich passes on the strain, the horse must have the same strain as Sahara...

I hope you could understand what I mean? :huh:

Many greetings,
Erna.
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Guest_HLM_*
post Mar 17 2003, 05:08 PM
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Hi Erna

Some of us feel that the Kuhayla Moradis are
"Kuhaylan Mimris". and that may be it was the translation originally. We have no more K Mimris in the Se's, nor Hamdanis. We only have the Mimris through the male lines of Nazeer (mansour).
But some of the regions appear to have Mimris still as well as the Hamdanis- Asils that is-..

hansi
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Erna Kornelis
post Mar 17 2003, 07:01 PM
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Thank you Hansi! Wonderful to read you again! smile.gif
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Guest_ALMASE_*
post Mar 18 2003, 11:21 AM
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Erna,

I looked into this last year since my stallion (below) is of this damline. I have found (on the internet) Sahara being Kuhaylan Moradi and two people I know with research books came back with 2x Kuhaylan Moradi and 1x Kuhaylan Mimreh, once with comment that they are pressumed to be the same strain.

More or different info appreciated.

Cheers,

Patrick
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Erna Kornelis
post Dec 1 2006, 10:28 AM
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HLM
post Dec 1 2006, 04:25 PM
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Dear Patrick

Sahara (1845) a Syrian bred mare is identified by Raswan under his Index No.8898 as a Kuhaylah Mimriyah.

She went to Jarczowce Stud, Poland in 1845, which puzzles me, because she was either imported in utero or by herself as a weanling or so.
I have no further details on this mare.

Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
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Oliver
post Dec 1 2006, 04:31 PM
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This information was sent to us:

"I wanted to let you know that there was DEFINITELY a strain from Saudi Arabia/Nejd called Kuheilan Moradi (male spelling obviously). I checked this recently with a Middle Eastern expert on old strains, and he found a literary reference in a very old Arabic book (sorry I don't have the name of the book or the author). This was apparently a highly regarded but even in the old days a rare Kuheilan sub-strain. It is absolutely NOT the same strain as Kuheilan Mimri (or Kuheilah Mimrieh or Mimrahieh for females). I can try to find out which tribe 'owned' the K. Moradi strain but it will take a while.

This K. Moradi strain appears to have been totally lost by the Bedouin breeders in the Middle East, and so today to the best of my information, the only known female line of this strain in the world is that of Sahara (through the Polish and Russian stud books). Sahara was a grey born circa 1840, bought in the desert by Count Juliusz Dzieduszycki and imported to Jarczowce in 1845. Her first daughter Sahara Slepka (sired by a Saglawi Kebir stallion, also a rare strain) was foaled en route from Arabia to Poland. "
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HLM
post Dec 1 2006, 06:06 PM
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Dear Oliver

thanks, that helps a lot. the Sahara c.1845 I mentioned appears to be a different one- I also have no offspring on her-
and Sahara OA (c.1840) dam of Sahara Slepka (1845)- an "Asil" mare
is listed as a Kuhaylah Moradi. she is by Ogier OA (c.1812)

Somehow my mind tells me that there still was the Kuhaylan Moradi blood in turky, but I have to verify this. South Africa still has some Kuhaylan Mimrie blood, but it is mostly not Asil.

Hansi
Serenity Aabian Farms
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Oliver
post Dec 3 2006, 03:47 PM
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This was sent to us:

"Do please also inform Hansi that "Ogier" is the Polish word for "Stallion"
and this "Ogier" 's date of birth (c. 1812) that she's put in her post is
someone's sheer guesswork. There is no recorded factual information on the
sire and dam of the grey mare Sahara (OA, circa 1840), of course there may
have been once upon a time but if so, it has sadly been lost. All that is
known for sure is her strain (K. Moradi) and her colour.

Turkey does not have the K. Moradi strain in their stud books. Turkey does
however have K. Mimrahieh (which they spell Kuheyle Memruhiyeh) through the
family of the 1931 mare Almumruhiye (imported from Syria 1933). Syria also
still has K. Mimrahieh."
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HLM
post Dec 3 2006, 11:34 PM
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Dear Oliver

thank you for this information. The writer is absolutely correct, we do not have exact birthdates on quite a few and judge it basically as to the offspring born and registered. Indeed such can be off by a few years, but not going forward if there are foals registered with factual birthdates.

"Ogier" thank you, I did not know this means "Stallion"

I refer your writer to Studbook Poland of 1972, Page 146- Plate 52, under "Lotna". The person will see "Ogier" OA sire of Souakim (1894), Of course cant be the one we are discussing, because ihe is listed on Page 129/Plate 35- Ogier- sire of Sahara Slepka (1845)

and again Studbook 1932- C35-P117- sire of "slepka" they forgot the Sahara infront.

Mind you, I should have been smarter- realizing that " Ogiery-Stadne"- means stallions at stud, standing or producing or whatever. This now throws a different light on the produce, and will have to remove at least temporarely the definition "Asil" All we know now is that Sahara OA (c.1840) was imported to Jarczowce Stud, POland in 1845 and that Sahara Slepka (1845) foaled during transport.Question now comes, WHERE DID SHE FOAL!And who was the sire.

this is what I mean that we researchers exchange knowledge, findings, etc, the only way to eventually arrive at a sound conclusion.Nobody can know it all or be at all places. I am always grateful to stand corrected and/or get more details of any entry. In any case, please thank the person reporting to you from me. Ilearned again.!

Thanks again
Hansi
Serenity Arabian Farms
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Oliver
post Dec 4 2006, 04:08 PM
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Dear Hansi,

here is another reply we got. Please note I just pasted it in as I received it.

_____________________________________________________________________


"HLM wrote: "This now throws a different light on the produce, and will have
to remove at least temporarely the definition "Asil" All we know now is that
Sahara OA (c.1840) was imported to Jarczowce Stud, Poland in 1845 and that
Sahara Slepka (1845) foaled during transport.Question now comes, WHERE DID
SHE FOAL!And who was the sire."

All the information that has survived the past 260 years (!!) is readily
available from the Polish researchers and historians. Sahara (OA) is one
of the most famous mares ever imported to Poland, along with Mlecha (OA) and
Gazella (OA). Sahara was even painted by the famous artist, Juliusz Kossak.
Many of the purchases by the Count were known to have been made in Syria and
many have considerable detail available, for example, one stallion he
imported was: AZET OA, a most beautiful grey Jilfan Sittam al Bulad stallion
bred in the desert about 1840 by the Beni Sakhr tribe. His sire was
Saqlawi-Ubayran. He was imported from the desert to Jarczowce Stud by Count
Juliusz Dzieduszycki in 1845. (W. Kwiatkowski).

For some necessary historical background, the following is is taken from a
wonderful article about another great Polish breeder of Arabians, Count
Waclaw Rzewuski, published in the Saudi Aramco World magazine (worth
reading, it is available on the internet at this link:

CLICK HERE!

"In 1843, another nobleman, Count Juliusz Dzieduszycki, inspired by the
poems and accounts of Rzewuski, assembled another elaborate expedition,
packing several thousand gold ducats into his saddlebags. Count
Dzieduszycki's father had been one of the few to obtain Arabian horses from
both Rzewuski and the Sanguszkos. The younger count had also made a lucky
purchase of a splendid Arabian stallion named Bagdad, which further inspired
his passion and moved him to follow in the footsteps of his father,
eventually becoming a renowned breeder. As Bagdad grew older, the count
searched for a replacement of equal quality, but none was to be found in the
region. So he unrolled the maps of the Middle East and marked places where
Arabian horses could likely be acquired. He sailed from Italy to Alexandria,
and from there headed to Cairo and eastward toward the Levant, bearing
letters introducing him as a nobleman from the same nation as the famous
Rzewuski. Like his predecessors, Dzieduszycki sought horses of the ultimate
quality and purity for breeding. Although the records he kept of his travels
are lost, it is known that he returned to his stud at Jarczowce after an
absence of two years, bringing seven stallions and, most importantly, three
mares: Gazella, Mlecha and Sahara."

Regarding the stallion Bagdad (OA) there is a lovely story associated with
this. (W. Kwiatkowski). "BAGDAD OA was a grey Szuejman (Shuweyman), bred in
1838 in the desert. He was purchased in Lwow by Count Juliusz Dzieduszycki
in 1840 from the Greek dealer Gliocco for 1,800 ducats with the addition of
his splendid coach-and-four and a silver-mounted whip. The price for a good
horse, even a breeding stallion, at that time was about 30 to 60 ducats."

So, taking into account all the above, this is the information known about
Sahara and her daughter, Sahara-Slepka (source: W. Kwiatkowski).

"SAHARA OA was a grey Kohejlan-Moradi foaled about 1840, acquired in the
desert by Count Juliusz Dzieduszycki and imported to Jarczowce in 1845.
Her daughter Sahara-Slepka was sired by a Seglavi Kebir and was foaled in
1845 during the journey from Arabia."

And this from Britta Fahlgren's The Arabian Horse Families of Poland: "In
1843, following the death of his father, Count Juliusz made a two-year
journey to Arabia and returned with seven stallions, including Kohejlan, Abu
Hejl and Abiat, and the three legendary mares Gazella, Mlecha and Sahara to
whom the Arabian horse owes such a tremendous debt throughout the world.
Two particular features of their Tables (M1, 2 and 3) deserve comment:
first that they do not depend for their continuance upon a single line of
descent as do so many other tables, but are instead multi-stemmed. The
number of their first-generation progeny to have successfully bred on at
Jarzowzce is remarkable when compared to other lines and most surely
indicate a rare judgement and instinct on the part of their breeder, Count
Juliusz. Second is of course their durability in tail female: these three
families actually account for no less than one third of all the entries on
the Female Tables. It is little wonder that they have always been so highly
prized by breeders everywhere. ...... All things considered, the ability of
Count Juliusz consistently to breed mares of this high quality for nearly
forty years represents an extraordinary achievement ..."

Please note regarding Mlecha - her strain was Kehaileh Dajania. Regarding
Gazella - her strain was Kehailet Ajuz. Of the stallions, Kohejlan and
Abiat were both Kohejlan Ajuz; Abu-Hejl was a flea-bitten grey Seglawi
Jedran with a black mane and tail, on his sire's side he was half-brother to
Batran-Aga. He was purchased by Count Juliusz in 1845 in the Syrian desert
about 15 miles from Damascus, imported to Jarczowce and sold by him to
Prince Roman Sanguszko the Elder in 1853.
"BATRAN-AGA OA was a grey Seglavi Dzedran, said to be half brother to
Abu-Hejl. Originally named Dzedran, he was renamed after his previous owner
Musselim Batran Aga. Musselim's wife obtained the horse from her beduin
family. He was purchased in Aleppo in 1844 by Prince Roman Sanguszko the
Elder himself and sent, together with a yearling colt El Szam, to Stamboul
to Glioccho, who was a Slawuta dealer at that time. It took Glioccho 2
years to transfer the horses to Slawuta, where they arrived in 1846".

So, most researchers concur that the likely origin of Sahara, along with
Gazella and Mlecha, was Syria, the destination of so many buying expeditions
from Poland.

As a footnote, one can only imagine what treasures we might have to this day
if any of Count Rzewuski's imported desert-bred Arabians (81 stallions and
33 mares purchased in 1818 and 1819) had survived and their descendants had
bred on - by the time of his death (or, in legend, disappearance) in 1831 at
the Battle of Daszow, the Count had over 80 Arabian broodmares from his
imported stock."
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HLM
post Dec 4 2006, 06:26 PM
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Dea Oliver

thank you

I have to digest all this and will reply to it as soon as I have a chance to check the records I have.

I appreciate the details.

Hansi biggrin.gif
Serneity Arabian Farnms
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