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> Maybe A Dumb Question., How do you know if your horse is straight egyptian?
Gary Lee
post Jul 30 2011, 11:41 PM
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Hey everyone. It's been a while. Been checking out those Abayyan lines slowly and surely. But somewhere a while back someone brought up that one of the tail female lines wasn't straight egyptian (don't ask me which one, I don't remember). In my search for answers I've asked just exactly how do you know a horse is straight egyptian. Of course I could buy data source and just go through each horse one by one until I got my answers because if I remember correctly it lists on there that they are straight egyptian. But until that day comes I'd like to know how everyone else finds that information preferably online because I don't have any of the books. I've been on the Al Khamsa website but I recently read that even Al Khamsa won't tell you if a horse is straight egyptian.

Any information is greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for your help. smile.gif
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Fairfax
post May 8 2012, 02:36 PM
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My information regarding GBE is correct and was confirmed many times to me by the LaCroix's. I attended numerous Polish sales where GBE was in attendance with the LaCroix, all expenses paid.

I am not sure if GBE owned an Arabian at one time..for some reason I do recall something about her mother owning one. GBE did work for Kellogg and had the opportunity, the eye and the journalistic ability to produce a volume of work regarding the breed. Her observations and her book from War Horse to Show Horse are a MUST READ for any serious Arabian Horse owner.

GBE HATED Raswan. Kellogg HATED Raswan. There is no question there is bad blood. Kellogg group stated Raswan killed the stallion of the same name. Raswan and two stable boys claimed the horse got loose and severed a tendon on some machinery that was in a paddock or field.

Putting the journalistic work of GBE, Raswan and Ott under a microscope with the knowledge we have via the internet and easy travel and communication, I am sure all parties would make significant changes to their research. GBE's defined her importance when she disputed Ridgeways Libyan theory on the foundation of the Arabian Horse.

I think ALL of their works are important for their validity "at the time they were produced" as compared to a person starting a Face Book page against preservation breeders. Right Liz?
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HLM
post May 8 2012, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 8 2012, 03:36 PM) *
My information regarding GBE is correct and was confirmed many times to me by the LaCroix's. I attended numerous Polish sales where GBE was in attendance with the LaCroix, all expenses paid.

I am not sure if GBE owned an Arabian at one time..for some reason I do recall something about her mother owning one. GBE did work for Kellogg and had the opportunity, the eye and the journalistic ability to produce a volume of work regarding the breed. Her observations and her book from War Horse to Show Horse are a MUST READ for any serious Arabian Horse owner.

GBE HATED Raswan. Kellogg HATED Raswan. There is no question there is bad blood. Kellogg group stated Raswan killed the stallion of the same name. Raswan and two stable boys claimed the horse got loose and severed a tendon on some machinery that was in a paddock or field.

Putting the journalistic work of GBE, Raswan and Ott under a microscope with the knowledge we have via the internet and easy travel and communication, I am sure all parties would make significant changes to their research. GBE's defined her importance when she disputed Ridgeways Libyan theory on the foundation of the Arabian Horse.

I think ALL of their works are important for their validity "at the time they were produced" as compared to a person starting a Face Book page against preservation breeders. Right Liz?



Leo
I think there is a difference between hearsay or being with a person and such talking. Gladys spent with Bill and I here in Florida early 80ties 4 days and we talked about a lot.Indeed, she was not rich .When she returned form us someone had turned off her electric and all her food was ruined, and the stenge in her little house terrible. She called me and supected certain people who might not have liked her sponsoring with her "guest of Honor"" presenting EGyptian Arabians. Her electric ill was paid. I flew her in from California and we had a wonderful time.. we helped her financially to recover the losses she took.

Every year when I was in Scottsdale or Alberquqy we met and talked. So I do have a bit of inside information and this strays away from some which you claim Leo. I dont know who hated or liked who. therefore can not make a judgment or even an assumptions. The same goes for all of us, and if Liz does not like the Otts, she has a good reason. While at one time I was not familiar with your equine knowledge, I dont think you are with Liz Dieter's. She bred and breeds some excellent SEs, is a very knowledgeable horsebreeder and most of all" says it as it is" refraining from lies or the likes.
I consider her very trustworthy.

I also never heard anybody wanting to harm/hurt or belittle the "Preservationist, the opposite is true, many till todate sacrifice all they have for it.

I think a little more understanding would be helful, rather than tearing some people to pieces or furthering hearsay.
If one does not like post, one should not read it!

BTH what Egyptian horses have you owned and had knowledge with? I still dont know.

Have a great day
Hansi
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Dieter
post May 9 2012, 01:53 AM
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QUOTE (HLM @ May 8 2012, 11:27 AM) *
I think there is a difference between hearsay or being with a person and such talking. (snipped) The same goes for all of us, and if Liz does not like the Otts, she has a good reason. While at one time I was not familiar with your equine knowledge, I dont think you are with Liz Dieter's. She bred and breeds some excellent SEs, is a very knowledgeable horsebreeder and most of all" says it as it is" refraining from lies or the likes. I consider her very trustworthy.

I think a little more understanding would be helful, rather than tearing some people to pieces or furthering hearsay.
If one does not like post, one should not read it!

Have a great day
Hansi

Dear Hansi,

Please don't feel the need to defend me. Leo can rant and rave, dig and insult and dance on his head if he wants to - I'm sure Karin won't mind, the forum itself might take some glee in it - lol. Caryn or whomever can dance with him too. There is no need for me to reply to him or anyone who is grabbing at straws and doing their level best to draw me in to a game of cat and mouse. It makes me chuckle to watch the different ways they go about it. Besides, I've always wanted my very own stalker cool.gif And this will be okay I think for these people to spread whatever it is they think or want others to think about me without a word from me - as if they were the first tongue.gif- lol. This is exactly how the big rumor mongers get their malicious start on a small breeder hoping to tear them to shreds. I say let them eat cake and do as ever they wish! I will be amused.

If anyone truly wants to know me, my intentions or my business, they will have to message me or perhaps do what hundreds of others have done and call me. But it should be known I do not judge others based on their presumed accomplishments. There is a lot more to a person's character than that and when it comes down to the nitty gritty, personal character is what it is all about.

Kind Regards,

Liz Dieter
JEVA Farms LLC


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Fairfax
post May 9 2012, 02:39 AM
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QUOTE (Dieter @ May 9 2012, 02:53 AM) *
Dear Hansi,

Please don't feel the need to defend me. Leo can rant and rave, dig and insult and dance on his head if he wants to - I'm sure Karin won't mind, the forum itself might take some glee in it - lol. Caryn or whomever can dance with him too. There is no need for me to reply to him or anyone who is grabbing at straws and doing their level best to draw me in to a game of cat and mouse. It makes me chuckle to watch the different ways they go about it. Besides, I've always wanted my very own stalker cool.gif And this will be okay I think for these people to spread whatever it is they think or want others to think about me without a word from me - as if they were the first tongue.gif- lol. This is exactly how the big rumor mongers get their malicious start on a small breeder hoping to tear them to shreds. I say let them eat cake and do as ever they wish! I will be amused.

If anyone truly wants to know me, my intentions or my business, they will have to message me or perhaps do what hundreds of others have done and call me. But it should be known I do not judge others based on their presumed accomplishments. There is a lot more to a person's character than that and when it comes down to the nitty gritty, personal character is what it is all about.

Kind Regards,

Liz Dieter
JEVA Farms LLC


I think stalking is a wildly misused term, especially when one posts and sets up a group on facebook...which is the most public of forums in the world.

They always say a bait and switch, then a strong denial to nothing, is a great defense. Lawyers use those techniques regularly.

You demanded from me, my involvement in the breed. You then stated it was unfair and you would not be answering my request for your credentials to besmirch the Ott name and the value of the Blue Star Catalogue.

Many threads have transpired and there was no mention of Blue Star, nor Ott until you would position it in thus enabling yourself to throw more stones at them.

No accomplishments are rather hard to defend so I believe you have done the best you can under the circumstances.

Deflect: Creating a victimhood for yourself by insinuating a stalking has occured when your Anti Preservation Group is brought to the attention of readers on this forum.

Deny the value of accomplishments pertaining to you but demand proof from others.

Rumor mongers...you have implied and applied so many about the Otts it is almost an undaunting task to state them all..brought to the readers attention based on the stories of a mentally unstable friend of Hansi's

I expect you will just let this wither away, which it will...but there are many who will remember you founded an Anti Preservation Group on Facebook which apoears to be in conflict with all that any straight breeding line group stands for.

On a bright note...I will no longer have to rebut your ongoing attacks against Blue Star/ Blue List/ Ott/ Raswan or anyone else. You have discredited yourself.

I don't think anyone can top that
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HLM
post May 9 2012, 01:45 PM
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QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 9 2012, 04:39 AM) *
I think stalking is a wildly misused term, especially when one posts and sets up a group on facebook...which is the most public of forums in the world.

They always say a bait and switch, then a strong denial to nothing, is a great defense. Lawyers use those techniques regularly.

You demanded from me, my involvement in the breed. You then stated it was unfair and you would not be answering my request for your credentials to besmirch the Ott name and the value of the Blue Star Catalogue.

Many threads have transpired and there was no mention of Blue Star, nor Ott until you would position it in thus enabling yourself to throw more stones at them.

No accomplishments are rather hard to defend so I believe you have done the best you can under the circumstances.

Deflect: Creating a victimhood for yourself by insinuating a stalking has occured when your Anti Preservation Group is brought to the attention of readers on this forum.

Deny the value of accomplishments pertaining to you but demand proof from others.

Rumor mongers...you have implied and applied so many about the Otts it is almost an undaunting task to state them all..brought to the readers attention based on the stories of a mentally unstable friend of Hansi's

I expect you will just let this wither away, which it will...but there are many who will remember you founded an Anti Preservation Group on Facebook which apoears to be in conflict with all that any straight breeding line group stands for.

On a bright note...I will no longer have to rebut your ongoing attacks against Blue Star/ Blue List/ Ott/ Raswan or anyone else. You have discredited yourself.

I don't think anyone can top that



Leo

Why all this? Unless I misunderstood you, you dont have an SE or Se bred horse, and never had one?
this forum is for Egpyitan breeders/owners, I thought.

I read you fine accomplishments you posted time ago, when I did not know much about you and actualy apologised to you for my ignorance. But then I am not so much familiar with accomplishments of othern breeds, other than the TBs to a degree.

Now, read the posts of some who are considered a particular clique, have never accomplished anything of greatnress, and are SE breeders or at least were. N o matter what anybody says - if they dont like them like me- it will be stalked and the smallest reason found to attack or discredit. Yes, Leo we have a handfull of such people among us too, but usually other SE breeders will take care of that.

You also need to understand that I myself love all breeds/horses and bred and owned a lot of Warmbloods too,, many became champions as well.

As far as Li z is concerned, I still have not looked at the face book, you most likely misunderstand her. Indeed she is a preservationist but will go after those who misrepresent, lie, defraud , or will not accept facts and truth and the likes. Believe me there are number of such people around and you then understand their posts. They were given a particular name here and abroad, which they earned in my opinion..
I think Liz is upset that Ms Ott destroyed her herd- shot herself 17-18 and the rest was done by her veterinarian. That somehow did not sit right with Liz, although I would have done the same before I let it go into improper hands.

Indeed there are discrepancies in the Blue Catalogue, but so are in all research books, from Raswan to to other famous ones, and also in mine. These discrepancies in most cases came about through lack of knowledge at that time and would have been corrected if the authors were alive today, or if alive . The problem I see is that certain people simply dont want to accept these facts and attack anybody who tries to enlighten them. In most all cases the reason is monetary, I feel.
Or eagertism trying to compensate for lack of accomplishments when it comes to the horses.
Such bullies can be found in any subject, anywhere.


However Leo, we can not attack people's opinion as you have done, but at least respect that they are stating it. One can instantly recognize the character of people through whatever, as you can even in animals, and recognize their motive, be they good or bad. Red my topic "Fawn/Bamby" on the other forum and you see what I mean.

I hope you understand the above and re-consider

Hansi


.

.
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Caryn Rogosky
post May 9 2012, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ May 9 2012, 03:45 PM) *
Unless I misunderstood you, you dont have an SE or Se bred horse, and never had one?
this forum is for Egpyitan breeders/owners, I thought.


I believe that I've been a member of this forum since the first day it existed, and it has never been restricted to Egyptian Arabian breeders or owners -- so I don't know how you could have thought that. In fact, the only restrictions that I am aware of are posters who are vile in their comments -- and some have been banned (more than once, as you know). The forum is, however, focused on the Straight Egyptians (both a label and a preservation group) so it is a bit odd that someone who apparently sees no merit in either of these things would want to participate. Still, no restrictions on that point and I think that's how it should be. I prefer free speech, even when I strongly disagree with what is expressed unless it is extremely personal and inappropriate.

In everything that I have read, Leo's own comments have been respectful and positive about SE Arabians and preservation efforts in general. So why are you suggesting that he should not be posting here? More efforts at censorship of people who do not agree with your opinions?
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HLM
post May 9 2012, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 9 2012, 04:26 PM) *
I believe that I've been a member of this forum since the first day it existed, and it has never been restricted to Egyptian Arabian breeders or owners -- so I don't know how you could have thought that. In fact, the only restrictions that I am aware of are posters who are vile in their comments -- and some have been banned (more than once, as you know). The forum is, however, focused on the Straight Egyptians (both a label and a preservation group) so it is a bit odd that someone who apparently sees no merit in either of these things would want to participate. Still, no restrictions on that point and I think that's how it should be. I prefer free speech, even when I strongly disagree with what is expressed unless it is extremely personal and inappropriate.

In everything that I have read, Leo's own comments have been respectful and positive about SE Arabians and preservation efforts in general. So why are you suggesting that he should not be posting here? More efforts at censorship of people who do not agree with your opinions?


Well, I guess this is exactly what I mean, MISCONSTRUE. I never stated that anybody, regardless of what they own, should not post here, if I may explain again- I referred to breeding/owning SEs or related, and therefore others might not understand or know what is meant. I happen to not like statements when SEs or related where never owned by them, and therefor not understood. To discredit a preservationist, accomplished horsebreeder has to be defended.

However, indeed there are people out there who simply enjoy hurting, bullying and the like and think they win with this.
I am also not aware of anybody who has been "banned" from this forumn. Mind you, some should be who forever look for trouble, find the slightest thing to misconstrue, etc.etc. This is not exactly helping anybody to join the SE breeders/owners, and may be this is why sales are so hard to make for some.

I also think that Leo has enough intelligence to fully understand what has been posted, as I am trying to understand his.

Yes, anybody can issue their opinion, but such should never be discredited or attacked, as you again just did mine, and always and ever do. I hope you enjoyed it.,.

This is my last post to you and the rest of your clique.

Hansi
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Posts in this topic
- Gary Lee   Maybe A Dumb Question.   Jul 30 2011, 11:41 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   Hi Gary........probably, the easiest thing for you...   Jul 31 2011, 06:20 AM
|- - Gary Lee   QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 30 2011, 11:20 P...   Jul 31 2011, 07:27 AM
- - Nadj al Nur   QUOTE (Gary Lee @ Jul 31 2011, 12:27 AM) ...   Jul 31 2011, 08:06 AM
|- - Gary Lee   QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 31 2011, 01:06 A...   Jul 31 2011, 03:31 PM
- - Cheryl L   The other 2 books that would be great to add to Th...   Jul 31 2011, 03:45 PM
- - Gary Lee   Thanks Cheryl, I'll add those too   Jul 31 2011, 03:57 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   QUOTE (Cheryl L @ Jul 31 2011, 08:45 AM) ...   Jul 31 2011, 03:57 PM
- - Gary Lee   Actually, thinking about it, I think I have all th...   Jul 31 2011, 04:02 PM
|- - Gary Lee   QUOTE (Gary Lee @ Jul 31 2011, 09:02 AM) ...   Jul 31 2011, 04:32 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   QUOTE (Gary Lee @ Jul 31 2011, 09:02 AM) ...   Jul 31 2011, 04:33 PM
|- - Dieter   QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 31 2011, 12:33 P...   May 4 2012, 10:11 PM
|- - 2mntn   QUOTE (Dieter @ May 4 2012, 04:11 PM) Exc...   May 5 2012, 02:59 AM
|- - Dieter   QUOTE (2mntn @ May 4 2012, 10:59 PM) I ca...   May 5 2012, 11:56 PM
- - Cheryl L   Agreed on the Blue Star/List, it is that simple. ...   Jul 31 2011, 05:04 PM
- - Gary Lee   Well my search of the blue star/blue list informat...   Jul 31 2011, 05:30 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   QUOTE (Gary Lee @ Jul 31 2011, 10:30 AM) ...   Jul 31 2011, 05:59 PM
|- - Gary Lee   QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 31 2011, 10:59 A...   Jul 31 2011, 06:13 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   Also.........Turfa is not officially listed as Abb...   Jul 31 2011, 06:04 PM
|- - Gary Lee   QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 31 2011, 11:04 A...   Jul 31 2011, 06:15 PM
- - Gary Lee   That being said, I understand theirs controversy a...   Jul 31 2011, 06:16 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   That's what I mean...........conflicting evide...   Jul 31 2011, 06:22 PM
|- - Gary Lee   QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 31 2011, 11:22 A...   Jul 31 2011, 06:30 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   QUOTE (Gary Lee @ Jul 31 2011, 11:30 AM) ...   Jul 31 2011, 07:22 PM
|- - Gary Lee   QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Jul 31 2011, 12:22 P...   Jul 31 2011, 07:25 PM
|- - DitaAlAnastasia   QUOTE (Gary Lee @ Jul 31 2011, 08:25 PM) ...   May 4 2012, 01:07 PM
|- - Caryn Rogosky   QUOTE (DitaAlAnastasia @ May 4 2012, 03:0...   May 8 2012, 03:42 AM
- - SKM   I recommend looking up all the references to Turfa...   May 5 2012, 02:22 PM
- - karin   Very interesting topic this. Thank you for sharin...   May 5 2012, 07:04 PM
- - Fairfax   Liz..you are so tiresome with your on going trashi...   May 6 2012, 07:54 PM
|- - HLM   QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 6 2012, 09:54 PM) Li...   May 7 2012, 11:17 AM
|- - Dieter   QUOTE (HLM @ May 7 2012, 07:17 AM) Hi Leo...   May 7 2012, 12:47 PM
||- - HLM   QUOTE (Dieter @ May 7 2012, 02:47 PM) Hi ...   May 7 2012, 12:58 PM
|- - Caryn Rogosky   QUOTE (HLM @ May 7 2012, 01:17 PM) Hi Leo...   May 8 2012, 03:26 AM
|- - M.D.   QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ May 8 2012, 04:26 ...   May 8 2012, 06:13 AM
- - Fairfax   GBE wrote the book standard on Wire Haired Terrier...   May 8 2012, 01:05 AM
|- - Caryn Rogosky   QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 8 2012, 04:36 PM) My...   May 8 2012, 03:02 PM
|- - Dieter   QUOTE (HLM @ May 9 2012, 09:45 AM) (snipp...   May 9 2012, 04:10 PM
|- - Caryn Rogosky   This is a bit confusing. According to Hansi, GBE n...   May 9 2012, 07:06 PM
- - Fairfax   My involvement with S.E. is actually traced to two...   May 8 2012, 05:41 PM
|- - HLM   QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 8 2012, 07:41 PM) My...   May 8 2012, 06:34 PM
- - Fairfax   Hansi I am SHOCKED that you, of all people, would...   May 8 2012, 07:27 PM
|- - HLM   QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 8 2012, 09:27 PM) Ha...   May 9 2012, 05:35 PM
- - Fairfax   P.S. Eleanor owned Ibn Mirage and crossed him on t...   May 8 2012, 07:29 PM
- - Nadj al Nur   here is a link to Liz' Facebook group for you ...   May 8 2012, 09:40 PM
|- - Caryn Rogosky   QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ May 8 2012, 11:40 PM...   May 9 2012, 02:06 AM
- - Fairfax   Liz Dieter updated the description. This group has...   May 8 2012, 09:58 PM
|- - Caryn Rogosky   QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 8 2012, 10:58 PM) Li...   May 9 2012, 01:29 AM
- - MHuprich   QUOTE (HLM @ May 8 2012, 02:34 PM) ... We...   May 8 2012, 10:07 PM
|- - Caryn Rogosky   QUOTE (MHuprich @ May 8 2012, 11:07 PM) S...   May 9 2012, 01:24 AM
- - Fairfax   I did have a Blue Star and a Straight Egyptian sta...   May 9 2012, 03:04 PM
|- - HLM   QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 9 2012, 04:04 PM) I ...   May 9 2012, 05:05 PM
- - Fairfax   Hansi These are the posts by Liz on the Facebook ...   May 9 2012, 03:10 PM
|- - HLM   QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 9 2012, 04:10 PM) Ha...   May 9 2012, 05:00 PM
- - karin   I think this topic is now really OFF TOPIC. Kari...   May 9 2012, 06:14 PM
|- - HLM   QUOTE (karin @ May 9 2012, 07:14 PM) I th...   May 9 2012, 06:39 PM
- - jerelkerby   Please let's stay civil, together and yet open...   May 9 2012, 07:22 PM
|- - Dieter   QUOTE (jerelkerby @ May 9 2012, 03:22 PM)...   May 9 2012, 10:01 PM
- - Seglawiyat   I would be happy to sit down and have a soda Jerel...   May 9 2012, 10:20 PM
- - Fairfax   Fast points as it should stay on topic Char Rabda...   May 9 2012, 10:42 PM
- - HLM   QUOTE (Fairfax @ May 9 2012, 11:42 PM) Fa...   May 9 2012, 11:37 PM


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