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> Romance Versa Reality, You comments please.
HLM
post Mar 3 2012, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Prospector @ Mar 3 2012, 08:20 PM) *
... as opposed to professional hobbyists...

It is not and never has been cheap to have a horse broken in or a rider trained to ride. When people like Liz, Hansi and myself were younger training our own horses was not a problem, you were young enough to take the falls and have the patience with the younger horses. One would just let the kids play around with quiet ponies and throw a leg over the quieter ones, give them a bit of a clue how to stay on, steer and use the brakes. The serious kids took a serious interest and you spent the time improving their riding so that they learned better riding skills, or if you were financially enabled, sent them to riding school.

Over the years it has become very expensive to send a horse away for breaking in and basic training (my last quote about 5 years ago was $3000 for three weeks). Mind you, it was the basis for the horse to become a dressage/eventer and I was aware that it would be very expensive because of that. I was rather disappointed my boy died just before going off ...

A lady who rented a small field where we ajisted before moving here 8 years ago, a Riding Instructor diploma holder (!) charged back then $55 per hour on your own horse and $65 for one of hers. I had only asked out of curiousity. I consider that to become a good rider, one would need to be riding a few times per week, which at that rate would add up quite quickly.

As I have gotten older, I have sold off all but two of my horses. Now I just have an elderly Nabiel granddaughter and a TB mare I have owned since she was a 2 year old. Considering my poor health these days, I am lucky. I find feeding these two expensive enough as it is, I would hate to be feeding even a small herd, with droughts and bush fires some years and equally devastating floods in between, never mind fuel prices rising, etc. and I live in a better off country not as badly affected by the world financial crisis as others ....

So if someone can only afford to keep so called "lawn ornaments" maybe it is better than the knackery/glue factory even if once they were a "biggie" (and I am not referring to the recent fiasco Fairfax has highlighted) ... even if they still are biggies trying to do the right thing by their horses as well as their trainers...



Yes you are right. Owning a horse has always been a luxury for many and going through proper training costs a fortune. Even at my time I spent $ 20,000 per year to be taught, and that's decades ago.

But so are other sports, tennis, gold, field and track, scating, etc, considering just the sport. With equine, one also has the upkeep . At my time all equine breeders bred for performacne horses, either to compete or for own pleasure.
In the warmbloods there used to be price moneys, sometimes a million dollar, as are in the flat racing of TBs.

It therefore boils down to one thing, a person wanting a good horse to ride, possibly compete. For this they can find a good boarding stable with possibly good instructors. Bill's nice is in the saddle since age 5/6, took lessons on all sorts of horses and now at over age ten is doing well. She graduated from strange looking horses to an "Arab" now, cant believe the enormous difference. It is her love affair and some day, when ready, will own herself a horse of quality.
I assure you she did not rent the Arab because of ROMANCE, BUT BECAUSE OF DISPOSITION, ATTITUDE AND TALENTS.And she goes there every afternoon after her homework is done, helps cleaning stalls, grooming etc.etc.
All this costs a lot of money, lessons, rent for the horse, board, etc.etc. there are others who love the sport and parents sacrifice to have them taught well. this goes for any serious sport I think.

the good thing is that with an Arab Horse one can quickly go on trail rides and do a lot of other things. With a warmblood its a differnt story, it can take years. Promoting the ARab Horse even for pleasure riding would help
the breed a lot. and what do we say "THE INSIDE OF A HORSE IS GOOD FOR THE OUTSIDE OF MEN" and 'THE OUTSIDE OF A HORSE GOOD FOR THE INSIDE OF MEN"
and the Germans say" Dass Glueck auf dieser Erde liegt auf dem Ruecken unserer Pferde"
(the happiness on this earth is on the back of our horses" (meaning riding)

Take care
hansi





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2mntn
post Mar 3 2012, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 3 2012, 09:24 AM) *
Speaking of evaluation, there is another aspect far removed from romance. That aspect would be the reality of the various genetic diseases. How are people dealing with this? Are horses who are carriers of "whatever" being set aside from consideration, or are people willing and able to deal with that aspect?



Anyone??
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tkr9
post Mar 4 2012, 12:43 AM
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I think the cost and time you invest in breaking and training an animal, compared to the likelihood of then being able to sell it on, is problematic, but it's a chicken-egg thing. If we don't start putting good athletic, well trained horses on the market - and at shows (I shall eventually give up calling for the AHS to require its champions to go under saddle at their annual show) you won't get people interested. Warmbloods became extremely fashionable and people, here in the UK, flocked to buy a 'Continental Sports Horse', only to find they cost a fortune to import and would eat fifty times their bodyweight just to maintain condition or were, for some, just too big.

Arabs have that stamina and athleticism, some are good doers, but with others they can survive on tough rations thanks to their desert heritage, and they have a beautiful temperament. We just gotta figure out some way of making them popular choices for owners again. But I do appreciate it's tricky. Looking at the studs now, if you want something broken to ride you have to opt for an old mare or a gelding. The rest are just youngstock. It's not good for the industry. It's economics, if breeders only ever sell to breeders it's a waste of time.

Ray - re. genetic diseases. First answer is I'm no expert, and I don't know what state Arabians are in, genetically, only that looking at the the show winners they all seem to come from the same stocks. It's just not biologically healthy. I'm all for sensible linebreeding and even, at a stretch and only if it's absolutely necessary, some inbreeding (although I will admit here as someone who went through a school system that hammered biology in to me that I really don't like it), but too many horses at the 'top' now are worryingly related. It;s a fact of genetics. You narrow the gene pool too much and it starts to deteriorate - look what's happening to Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. Arabians have a robust and wide gene pool to choose from, but I can see it narrowing. There are some very precious traits that linebreeding alone seems to produce, but for the long-term survival at the breed at some point someone is going to have to start questioning it. I don't think we're there yet, but do we really want to start firefighting after the effect?
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Dieter
post Mar 4 2012, 01:16 AM
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Hi all,

You guys have said it all and said it well. I couldn't add anything more of value.

I know quite a few people that ride their SE's . . . they don't show them, but they ride them out on the trail and in the mountains having the most fun and always on the horse that is as lively upon their return as when they left and always with that tail raised in the air. Most of these are the envy of the riding group and many people have been looking for an SE that is broke to ride. Not too many of those around these days or if they are broke to ride, they are not for sale (I've got 2 broke to ride, but neither for sale).

Artificial Insemination has contributed greatly to our shrinking genetic pool. IMO

As for the genetic question, I have no issue with using a horse that is a carrier because both of my mares are LFS/CA clear. My issue would be getting the mare to the stallion because "live cover" is the method I prefer to use when breeding my mares (if I could find a stallion available for live cover).

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Mr Prospector
post Mar 4 2012, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 3 2012, 10:10 PM) *
Anyone??


It will go in two directions, I think, those who want to stay away from even the lines even if they are clear, and those who will selectively breed with and around the genetic problems. Which is why being open about the entire thing would be better for the breed than still pretending it doesn't exist, However, I do think it is an individual thing, and results should not be compulsorily be published on the database. You are going to have some horrific problems if you force people. However, I do think compulsory testing should be done until all results are known.

Eventually, with good selective breeding the problem should dissipate to almost extinction.

-----------------

I think what we tend to forget is that horses are "a thing of the past" they are no longer required for speed or distance except in a few small areas of the earth. They probably wont be maintained in large enough numbers into the future should they ever be needed, but that need is probably highly unlikely. Eventually they will probably become like zebras and deers, a quaint tourist attraction. Mostly because they are becoming so expensive to keep and less people are enthusiastic about learning to ride and have the free money to do so.

I was discussing the state of racing with an friend this morning. We used to spend Thursdays and Fridays studying the Saturday form for the races. Then we would off to the race track Saturday, watch the races, watch the horses and talk to other "oldies" doing much the same thing. Place our bets and win or loose.

Young people these days may go to the races if there is nothing else to do. They think you pick a winner by picking a number or a couple of numbers and drinking lots of booze. So with all the other competition that is more instant (poler machines etc.) racing and all the work that goes into that is going to die a slow death as well. And that is apart from the fact that TB breeding isn't as good as it used to be because it is mostly breeding to winners and not to bloodlines.

So one doesn't have to just overcome the Arabness problems, the horse riding expense problems there is also just the fact that it is all becoming too old fashioned to attract many new comers and young people to carry the torch.

Oh they may encourage it to some extent in the Middle East, but even there, if there is not more fairness with the elite it will crumble in on them eventually...
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dkz
post Mar 4 2012, 12:16 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Prospector @ Mar 4 2012, 02:32 AM) *
And that is apart from the fact that TB breeding isn't as good as it used to be because it is mostly breeding to winners and not to bloodlines.


Sorry to hi-jack this thread for a moment but maybe we could start a new thread on how to properly read a pedigree. I have come across a number of people who didn't have a clue, but wanted to learn. Breeders knowing what their pedigrees actually contain as far as possibilities, would also help our breed.
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Dieter
post Mar 4 2012, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Prospector @ Mar 3 2012, 08:32 PM) *
It will go in two directions, I think, those who want to stay away from even the lines even if they are clear, and those who will selectively breed with and around the genetic problems.

Are you saying that for those people who choose to NOT breed to an LFS/CA/SCID carrier, they will avoid the bloodlines of a horse even if that horse was tested clear because it comes from a bloodline who is a carrier? blink.gif Do I understand that correctly?
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Dieter
post Mar 4 2012, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE (dkz @ Mar 4 2012, 07:16 AM) *
Sorry to hi-jack this thread for a moment but maybe we could start a new thread on how to properly read a pedigree. I have come across a number of people who didn't have a clue, but wanted to learn. Breeders knowing what their pedigrees actually contain as far as possibilities, would also help our breed.
That's a great idea to start a new thread on how to read a pedigree properly.
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HLM
post Mar 4 2012, 02:36 PM
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QUOTE (Mr Prospector @ Mar 4 2012, 02:32 AM) *
It will go in two directions, I think, those who want to stay away from even the lines even if they are clear, and those who will selectively breed with and around the genetic problems. Which is why being open about the entire thing would be better for the breed than still pretending it doesn't exist, However, I do think it is an individual thing, and results should not be compulsorily be published on the database. You are going to have some horrific problems if you force people. However, I do think compulsory testing should be done until all results are known.

Eventually, with good selective breeding the problem should dissipate to almost extinction.

-----------------

I think what we tend to forget is that horses are "a thing of the past" they are no longer required for speed or distance except in a few small areas of the earth. They probably wont be maintained in large enough numbers into the future should they ever be needed, but that need is probably highly unlikely. Eventually they will probably become like zebras and deers, a quaint tourist attraction. Mostly because they are becoming so expensive to keep and less people are enthusiastic about learning to ride and have the free money to do so.

I was discussing the state of racing with an friend this morning. We used to spend Thursdays and Fridays studying the Saturday form for the races. Then we would off to the race track Saturday, watch the races, watch the horses and talk to other "oldies" doing much the same thing. Place our bets and win or loose.

Young people these days may go to the races if there is nothing else to do. They think you pick a winner by picking a number or a couple of numbers and drinking lots of booze. So with all the other competition that is more instant (poler machines etc.) racing and all the work that goes into that is going to die a slow death as well. And that is apart from the fact that TB breeding isn't as good as it used to be because it is mostly breeding to winners and not to bloodlines.

So one doesn't have to just overcome the Arabness problems, the horse riding expense problems there is also just the fact that it is all becoming too old fashioned to attract many new comers and young people to carry the torch.

Oh they may encourage it to some extent in the Middle East, but even there, if there is not more fairness with the elite it will crumble in on them eventually...



Actually ALL SE LINES CARRY CA and LFS, BUT not SCID. I dont think we can ever outbreed it (thought differently before I knew more on the subject) , as this is there for many centuries and caried forward. I would breed from a CA or LFS carrier, if the mare is clear on it, and I need the bloodline of the stallion. Obviously this was done for centuries, otherwise it would not exist todate. I think it started with some of the BLUNT /Crabbet horses, and of course
had to go back much further than that. I am here referring to SEs.

I dont think the Equine sports will ever die out, too many people born who love the "Horse" and cant be without it,and find a way to own or rent one. I mentioned earlier Bill's nice, who cant be kept away from the the horses. there also will always be grandparents affording the grand children their loe affair with horses.

hANSI

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tkr9
post Mar 4 2012, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 03:36 PM) *
I dont think the Equine sports will ever die out, too many people born who love the "Horse" and cant be without it,and find a way to own or rent one.

hANSI


biggrin.gif

Totally agree! smile.gif

I think I heard someone quote once that a love of horses is a virus for which there is no cure. Horses lost their 'useful' place in society more than 70 years ago (in the west, anyway), and we still ride and obsess about them. smile.gif

Not sure about finding a way to own or rent one, I've been trying since I first sat on a horse (when I was 6). I'm 30 now and still haven't got one sad.gif

I compensate - being obsessed with Arabians helps smile.gif I go to shows and open days and read vociferously, and I find genetics and bloodlines fascinating. Ultimately, and I know this sounds really stupid, but I think it's an ancient connection, I can't explain it, but horses mean something to mankind, something that goes beyond mere hobbyism.
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HLM
post Mar 4 2012, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 4 2012, 04:23 PM) *
That's a great idea to start a new thread on how to read a pedigree properly.



yes, why dont you start it Liz, and I support it, as many others will,.
You have many experiences to share.

Hansi
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Caryn Rogosky
post Mar 4 2012, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 03:36 PM) *
Actually ALL SE LINES CARRY CA and LFS, BUT not SCID.

hANSI




ALL SE lines carry CA and LF? I don't think so. Unless a study has been done that I'm not aware of -- my understanding is that both of these diseases occur with the SE population, but not in ALL lines. If sire and dam are both clear (of either disease), then they can't be carriers and therefore cannot transmit to their produce. Only carriers can transmit, unless a spontaneous mutation should occur -- or am I mistaken?
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Liz Salmon
post Mar 4 2012, 04:22 PM
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I am actually finding more breeders and owners are testing for the genetic conditions and being honest about it.

Yes, reading pedigrees is something else than needs to be taught. I am horrified sometimes at some trainers ignorance on pedigrees. My latest client from Saudi who had been to Scottsdale said that no one showed him where the various bloodlines were from i.e Polish, Russian, Egyptian etc—let alone tail female lines !! nor did they talk about conformation, type or movement. He spent several hours with me yesterday looking at pedigrees, photos and videos and I sent him home with a huge folder of conformational and type articles, diagrams and photos on the subject. I have collected material over the years from seminars and some I have written myself.
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BaileyArabians
post Mar 4 2012, 04:31 PM
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Where is the scientific study to back this up? A simple link will do.

QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 09:36 AM) *
Actually ALL SE LINES CARRY CA and LFS, BUT not SCID.

hANSI

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HLM
post Mar 4 2012, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (Liz Salmon @ Mar 4 2012, 05:22 PM) *
I am actually finding more breeders and owners are testing for the genetic conditions and being honest about it.

Yes, reading pedigrees is something else than needs to be taught. I am horrified sometimes at some trainers ignorance on pedigrees. My latest client from Saudi who had been to Scottsdale said that no one showed him where the various bloodlines were from i.e Polish, Russian, Egyptian etc—let alone tail female lines !! nor did they talk about conformation, type or movement. He spent several hours with me yesterday looking at pedigrees, photos and videos and I sent him home with a huge folder of conformational and type articles, diagrams and photos on the subject. I have collected material over the years from seminars and some I have written myself.



Hi Liz (Salmon)

I think this is wonderful what you did. Many a horse is overlooked because some owners/trainers have no clue of what they really have. I think we have more people able to give information in our industry than in some others.
Education is so important and may be some day seminars are given, explaining what certain bloodlines consistently produce (performance). Of course little testing is done, sometimes for 3-4 generations and then difficult to to explain, other that they carry certain genetic values.

I get questiosn about Arabians, other than SEs, and am able to answer them.

take care
hansi
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