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> Romance Versa Reality, You comments please.
HLM
post Mar 4 2012, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE (BaileyArabians @ Mar 4 2012, 06:31 PM) *
Where is the scientific study to back this up? A simple link will do.



Hi Cathy (Bailey Arabians)

May I refer you to Lisa Campiglio, Margaret Illing and Lab departments who/which have far more data than I do.

The Australian Imports of Blunt/Crabbet horses end of 1800dreds had the deceases. It mostly led into Syria, and Syrian horses by enlarge are in the SEs. These lines can also be found in our SEs including Inshass lines.
These Blunt/Crabett lines of course also went to the RAS through the Blunt imports.

I am not an authority on the subject, and my information comes from those who are. While some lines might have been clear at the start, mated with carriers made the difference.

Hansi

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BaileyArabians
post Mar 4 2012, 05:03 PM
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Hi Hansi,

I will contact either or both and ask them to verify that they advised you that ALL SE lines carry CA and LFS and report back my results here.
Also any information from the scientific study from which this information was the result.

Thanks.

QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 11:48 AM) *
Hi Cathy (Bailey Arabians)

May I refer you to Lisa Campiglio, Margaret Illing and Lab departments who/which have far more data than I do.

The Australian Imports of Blunt/Crabbet horses end of 1800dreds had the deceases. It mostly led into Syria, and Syrian horses by enlarge are in the SEs. These lines can also be found in our SEs including Inshass lines.
These Blunt/Crabett lines of course also went to the RAS through the Blunt imports.

I am not an authority on the subject, and my information comes from those who are. While some lines might have been clear at the start, mated with carriers made the difference.

Hansi

.

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BaileyArabians
post Mar 4 2012, 05:19 PM
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I just wanted to quote this post as well in it's entirety so it'll be easier for them to find, should they look.

QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 09:36 AM) *
Actually ALL SE LINES CARRY CA and LFS, BUT not SCID. I dont think we can ever outbreed it (thought differently before I knew more on the subject) , as this is there for many centuries and caried forward. I would breed from a CA or LFS carrier, if the mare is clear on it, and I need the bloodline of the stallion. Obviously this was done for centuries, otherwise it would not exist todate. I think it started with some of the BLUNT /Crabbet horses, and of course
had to go back much further than that. I am here referring to SEs.

I dont think the Equine sports will ever die out, too many people born who love the "Horse" and cant be without it,and find a way to own or rent one. I mentioned earlier Bill's nice, who cant be kept away from the the horses. there also will always be grandparents affording the grand children their loe affair with horses.

hANSI

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HLM
post Mar 4 2012, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (BaileyArabians @ Mar 4 2012, 06:03 PM) *
Hi Hansi,

I will contact either or both and ask them to verify that they advised you that ALL SE lines carry CA and LFS and report back my results here.
Also any information from the scientific study from which this information was the result.

Thanks.



Dear Cathy

where did I state that the above two parties advised me? I asked you to contact them for further details.
All I offered is to contact them to get explanations.

Based on data I have, I feel that all lines carry one or the other decease or both. If there are liines which are totally clear up to date, I need to learn about them
dont you think we should start a new topic on this?

Take care
Hansi
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Caryn Rogosky
post Mar 4 2012, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 07:22 PM) *
Dear Cathy

where did I state that the above two parties advised me? I asked you to contact them for further details.
All I offered is to contact them to get explanations.

Based on data I have, I feel that all lines carry one or the other decease or both. If there are liines which are totally clear up to date, I need to learn about them
dont you think we should start a new topic on this?

Take care
Hansi


Quote Hansi:

"I am not an authority on the subject, and my information comes from those who are. While some lines might have been clear at the start, mated with carriers made the difference."


If the two parties who you cited as contatcts are not the authorities from which your information was obtained, who are the source authorities? '

This is an important issue and your statement is potentially incindiary, so care must be taken. It is either true or false that all SE lines carry CA and LFS -- and if true, this would have to be supported by scientific proof. It is not something that can be "felt". If it is not true, we would not want newcomers, or even SE enthusiasts, from all over the world to believe that all SE Arabians carry these genetic diseases.
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HLM
post Mar 4 2012, 06:33 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Mar 4 2012, 07:06 PM) *
Quote Hansi:

"I am not an authority on the subject, and my information comes from those who are. While some lines might have been clear at the start, mated with carriers made the difference."


If the two parties who you cited as contatcts are not the authorities from which your information was obtained, who are the source authorities? '

This is an important issue and your statement is potentially incindiary, so care must be taken. It is either true or false that all SE lines carry CA and LFS -- and if true, this would have to be supported by scientific proof. It is not something that can be "felt". If it is not true, we would not want newcomers, or even SE enthusiasts, from all over the world to believe that all SE Arabians carry these genetic diseases.



that's the problem you have, to always and ever jump to conclusions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Furthermore what makes you think ONLY the SEs have carriers?

Hansi
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tkr9
post Mar 4 2012, 07:10 PM
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Going back to the crux of the argument - the AHA MUST, surely, have the data? About which percentage of horses registered are carriers. I mean, conscientious breeders wouldn't dream of NOT having their horses tested. After all, they surely want to breed for the best. I don't understand why it wouldn't be compulsory to be honest, but there we are. It's a question of education - breeders must want to have their horses tested and buyers must want to get their purchase tested. And the inexperienced should never dabble with affected bloodlines until they really know what they're doing. It;s raising awareness among newcomers. I give up on the old hands who don't care. They just don't want to know, get defensive and never change their minds, but if all newbies are taught about this sort of thing, we can make sure the next generation don't repeat the mistakes of their forerunners.

Besides, it's not just a question of CA and LFS, or even SCID. It's a question of monitoring the breed for three distinct things, and this has to be across the spectrum of ALL enthusiasts.

1. Who has genetic disorders, where, and what percentage of horses are affected over all. You cannot eliminate all genetic disorders but we can keep them down to a minimum.

2. We should avoid what we're doing now, which is narrowing down type too much. I know judges appreciate extreme type in the ring, and some of these horses are beautiful, healthy, athletic animals. But Arabian type is not limited to that. It also includes tall, straight faced Russians, powerful Polish horses, 'stocky' (I prefer 'useful type') Crabbet's etc. We must encourage this diversity or the breeding gene pool will just get narrower and narrower and narrower.

3. We should educate breeders about bloodlines and genetics. I've actually met breeders at shows who, in the face of biology and genetic Fact, told me they inbred extensively because they, to quote 'Have been in the business a long time and knew what they were doing, besides the genetic COI only referred to inbreeding in non-Arabian horses...' This is absolute nonsense. Limited inbreeding is fine, if used sparingly, but extensive inbreeding is genetically idiotic. It damages gene pools. It was scientifically known even before anyone discovered genetics. It doesn't just refer to genetic disorders, but also the deterioration of the DNA itself. I've seen SE bloodlines that have Nazeer, for example, in EVERY single line of their pedigree! It's unsustainable. These are amazing horses with a diverse original gene pool, breeding like this just isn't necessary. Linebreeding should only ever be done by experts, and inbreeding only used to preserve an extremely rare trait or provide a range of bloodstock to go out and promote a rare or necessary trait. Bear in mind that one stallion producing 100 young, for example, means 100 bloodlines of that stallion, two generations on it can be difficult NOT to breed from lines from that stallion.

We just need to educated breeders better, ensure Type does not narrow us down to producing the equine equivalent of freakish pedigrees, and encourage performance testing before a stallion is allowed to be registered. If your horse had to be pretty and run X many miles without collapsing, that might change breeder's priorities slightly! That can only help the breed. Many genetic disorders start out as small problems that affect performance, but if a horse is hale and healthy and can stay fit and athletic it's a good sign the gene pool is clean.
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Nadj al Nur
post Mar 4 2012, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE (tkr9 @ Mar 4 2012, 11:10 AM) *
I've seen SE bloodlines that have Nazeer, for example, in EVERY single line of their pedigree! It's unsustainable. These are amazing horses with a diverse original gene pool, breeding like this just isn't necessary.

There are only 67 original ancestors within the SE genepool. The AK website gives a great deal of information on these original horses for anyone interested, and it's free for anyone to use.
Cathy
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Caryn Rogosky
post Mar 4 2012, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 07:33 PM) *
that's the problem you have, to always and ever jump to conclusions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Furthermore what makes you think ONLY the SEs have carriers?

Hansi


I don't believe that I have jumped to any conclusions. On the contrary -- my sense is that you you are stating a conclusion based upon a misconception of how these disorders are (or are not) perpetuated. Words matter, and its important not to misinform people. Again, unless there have been studies that I am unaware of, not only is it not true that all lines of SE's carry these disorders, but not even all descendants of a carrier are themselves carriers. Horses who are clear do not carry the effected gene, and therefore can't pass it on. I think that testing is a good thing, but I'm not sure that education on the subject has been able to keep up with a spreading fear due to misunderstanding. Newcomers should not be under the impression that if they decide to breed Straight Egyptians that they will likely have effected foals, or automatically perpetuate these genetic disorders -- because, to the very best of my knowledge, that's just not so.

I have no idea where you got the idea that I think that ONLY SE's have carriers.
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Nadj al Nur
post Mar 4 2012, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE (tkr9 @ Mar 4 2012, 11:10 AM) *
.

, but if a horse is hale and healthy and can stay fit and athletic it's a good sign the gene pool is clean.

No, it isn't. Carriers of CA and SCID are perfectly healthy and athletic and may never see a sick day in their lives.
Cathy
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HLM
post Mar 4 2012, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE (tkr9 @ Mar 4 2012, 09:10 PM) *
Going back to the crux of the argument - the AHA MUST, surely, have the data? About which percentage of horses registered are carriers. I mean, conscientious breeders wouldn't dream of NOT having their horses tested. After all, they surely want to breed for the best. I don't understand why it wouldn't be compulsory to be honest, but there we are. It's a question of education - breeders must want to have their horses tested and buyers must want to get their purchase tested. And the inexperienced should never dabble with affected bloodlines until they really know what they're doing. It;s raising awareness among newcomers. I give up on the old hands who don't care. They just don't want to know, get defensive and never change their minds, but if all newbies are taught about this sort of thing, we can make sure the next generation don't repeat the mistakes of their forerunners.

Besides, it's not just a question of CA and LFS, or even SCID. It's a question of monitoring the breed for three distinct things, and this has to be across the spectrum of ALL enthusiasts.

1. Who has genetic disorders, where, and what percentage of horses are affected over all. You cannot eliminate all genetic disorders but we can keep them down to a minimum.

2. We should avoid what we're doing now, which is narrowing down type too much. I know judges appreciate extreme type in the ring, and some of these horses are beautiful, healthy, athletic animals. But Arabian type is not limited to that. It also includes tall, straight faced Russians, powerful Polish horses, 'stocky' (I prefer 'useful type') Crabbet's etc. We must encourage this diversity or the breeding gene pool will just get narrower and narrower and narrower.

3. We should educate breeders about bloodlines and genetics. I've actually met breeders at shows who, in the face of biology and genetic Fact, told me they inbred extensively because they, to quote 'Have been in the business a long time and knew what they were doing, besides the genetic COI only referred to inbreeding in non-Arabian horses...' This is absolute nonsense. Limited inbreeding is fine, if used sparingly, but extensive inbreeding is genetically idiotic. It damages gene pools. It was scientifically known even before anyone discovered genetics. It doesn't just refer to genetic disorders, but also the deterioration of the DNA itself. I've seen SE bloodlines that have Nazeer, for example, in EVERY single line of their pedigree! It's unsustainable. These are amazing horses with a diverse original gene pool, breeding like this just isn't necessary. Linebreeding should only ever be done by experts, and inbreeding only used to preserve an extremely rare trait or provide a range of bloodstock to go out and promote a rare or necessary trait. Bear in mind that one stallion producing 100 young, for example, means 100 bloodlines of that stallion, two generations on it can be difficult NOT to breed from lines from that stallion.

We just need to educated breeders better, ensure Type does not narrow us down to producing the equine equivalent of freakish pedigrees, and encourage performance testing before a stallion is allowed to be registered. If your horse had to be pretty and run X many miles without collapsing, that might change breeder's priorities slightly! That can only help the breed. Many genetic disorders start out as small problems that affect performance, but if a horse is hale and healthy and can stay fit and athletic it's a good sign the gene pool is clean.



you are absolutely right my dear. Study, education is needed. Serenity tested ALL THEIR STOCK, and published.
We have nothing to hide.

We have experts on the subject as Margarete Illing, Lisa Campiglio and others, who can give far better explanations than I can. I can only go back into the ancestors of ours, where a carrier is involved. that goes back to hundreds of ancestors and some had to be carriers to carry it forward. None of us can say which ones, can only watch for consistency. What we can gather is that many todate can be carrier of one or the other, or both. I think Australia might have a better idea if the carriers from Lady A Blunt breeding bred the decease forward.

I have a case where the sire is a CA carrier, but most of his offspring not. While he created multiple performance champions (endurance etc) it would be unwise for us to not use him, if we want to. I have recorded 16 generations
of him, and some lead into horses of other breeders who's horses can be carriers.

At the end of the 19th century thousand of horses died in Egypt etc of deceases, such as glanders, dourin, etc
it is stated. that alone wiped out a lot of carriers, I suppose.

All we can now go by is to watch what we are doing, dont breed carrier to carrer.
We can also go back to the published date of carriers and then try to ascertain where it came from. We might get a surprise how many are involved.

Hansi
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Mr Prospector
post Mar 4 2012, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (Dieter @ Mar 4 2012, 02:10 PM) *
Are you saying that for those people who choose to NOT breed to an LFS/CA/SCID carrier, they will avoid the bloodlines of a horse even if that horse was tested clear because it comes from a bloodline who is a carrier? blink.gif Do I understand that correctly?


Liz, sorry to be so long getting back I come from a land downunder, and while you are awake I am asleep.

Unfortunately, that is exactly what I am saying. I personally do not feel this is a particularly good thing, simply because it suddenly narrows your genepool very significantly, and while Arabians can be inbred for a few generations, some outcross is required sooner or later. There are one or two breeders who have indicated they would breed like that however, I think they may have to be further educated on the matter. I think that there are some older people who really do not understand about the genetic components of the diseases.
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Caryn Rogosky
post Mar 4 2012, 08:28 PM
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With regard to romance and dreamers....

I see no conflict between romance and practicality in many things, and most especially not with regard to the appreciation of Arabian horses. Besides being related to love, romance implies passion and adventure. What part of the history of Arabian horses is devoid of passion and adventure? Whose writings are more passionate and adventurous than those of the Bedouin horsebreeders themselves? Did their poetry of love and admiration for their horses detract from their understanding and value of their utility? I don't think so. If we strip the Arabian breed of romance, we disembody its soul and spirit and we divest it of the very culture which created it. If we don't recognize the Arabian as unique amongst all other breeds; if we deny that passion and adventure are inherent in every cell in its body; if we are to believe that its only function is as a utility and nothing more...then we might as well breed Warmbloods.

"Dreams pass into the reality of action. From the actions stems the dream again; and this interdependence produces the highest form of living:" ~Anais Nin

God bless the dreamers -- they are the visionaries, the analysts, the communicators, and ultimately, the problem solvers.
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Mr Prospector
post Mar 4 2012, 08:31 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 4 2012, 08:13 PM) *
I think Australia might have a better idea if the carriers from Lady A Blunt breeding bred the decease forward.


Hansi


Oh for goodness sakes, Hansi, you cannot blame all the woes of the modern Arabian breed on Lady A Blunt. She got her horses from Arabian and Egypt just like every one else; they all contributed. Remember when you point your finger at someone there are four more point back at you...

K
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phanilah
post Mar 4 2012, 08:50 PM
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I haven't had a chance to read through all of the posts, to fully understand what the apparent disagreement is. But, for some basic reality checks:

1) - Horses, like other species, have a variety of genetic disorders owners/breeders need to be aware of. Currently, there are 10 disorders that are testable.
- Arabians, like other breeds, have a variety of genetic disorders owners/breeders need to be aware of. Currently, 3 of the 10 testable disorders are associated with Arabians.
- The subgroup of horses in the Arabian breed, known as Straight Egyptian, have individuals who have tested as carriers for CA, LFS and/or SCID. While the incidence of these various disorders appears to vary quite a bit within the SE population, the main point is that these mutations do exist within this group.

2) Without using testing, there is no way to know whether a horse possesses any of these mutations. Either the individual horse needs to be tested or both parents need to be KNOWN to be clear (given these 3 disorders are recessive conditions).. Where these mutations originated is not known. However, it is quite possible that at least some of them were in in existence in the desert population and "came out of the desert" (so to speak) through multiple descendents.

3) While LFS has been long associated as being "just an Egyptian thing" the reality is that it isn't. As more Pure Crabbet carriers become publicly announced, it is making this point even easier to make.

4) As more and more horses are being tested and publicly listed, it helps identiy known carrier lines, as well as those horses who are clear. However, short of testing EVERY HORSE, there is no way to know exactly every carrier (or clear) line. ESTIMATED allele frequencies for these disorders have been calculated, at various points in time, but those frequencies need to be kept in context.

While trying to locate an ancestral start point is an interesting academic exercise. the important horses are the ones alive and breeding today. Education is paramount and testing needs to be reasonably utilized. Test breeding stock and know...that way AFFECTED FOALS NEVER NEED TO BE PRODUCED!

Lots of information is available here: http://arabianhorses.org/education/genetic/default.asp

Beth Minnich
Chair, Research Advisory Panel, Arabian Horse Foundation
Chair, ESRE Subcommittee on Genetic Disorders, Arabian Horse Association
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