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> How To Read A Pedigree
dkz
post Mar 5 2012, 09:44 PM
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I thought it would be nice to learn more about what our horses' pedigrees tell us. There is so much to know about the horses and their placements in them, even though we have a relatively small gene pool it can still be overwhelming. With all the knowledgeable breeders we have on this forum I'm hoping we will all learn something new.
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HLM
post Mar 5 2012, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE (dkz @ Mar 5 2012, 11:44 PM) *
I thought it would be nice to learn more about what our horses' pedigrees tell us. There is so much to know about the horses and their placements in them, even though we have a relatively small gene pool it can still be overwhelming. With all the knowledgeable breeders we have on this forum I'm hoping we will all learn something new.



O yes dear dkz, a pedigree tells me everything, if the horse is Asil or not, comes from an athletic line,
had/has a knowledgable breeder, or bred from "I scratch your back and you scratch mine", meaning politcs were involved. If it is a knowledgable breeder you can actually figure out what such was thinking when breeding the horse.


One basically has to go through ONE HORSES'S pedigree to understand and learn.
So, where do we start?

Take care
hansi
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Kimberli
post Mar 5 2012, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 5 2012, 10:21 PM) *
O yes dear dkz, a pedigree tells me everything, if the horse is Asil or not, comes from an athletic line,
had/has a knowledgable breeder, or bred from "I scratch your back and you scratch mine", meaning politcs were involved. If it is a knowledgable breeder you can actually figure out what such was thinking when breeding the horse.


One basically has to go through ONE HORSES'S pedigree to understand and learn.
So, where do we start?

Take care
hansi


Hansi, I love this...Are you willing to start with one of your imported horses and "Read" the pedigree for us?
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Nadj al Nur
post Mar 5 2012, 11:18 PM
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How about starting with Khofo since everybody more or less knows him.
C
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HLM
post Mar 5 2012, 11:47 PM
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QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 6 2012, 12:10 AM) *
Hansi, I love this...Are you willing to start with one of your imported horses and "Read" the pedigree for us?



You very kind Kimberly, but how about starting with "Rabanna" one of my pet projects.

All of you, please start with this, and I jump in as soon as I can.

I start you off:
Rabanna (1947) (Rasik x Banna) a Saqlawi Jidraniya, bred by D F Gallaher, Calistoga,cA, USA
And owned by Richard Pritzlaff, Sapello, NM, USA
Remember I was fighting for her to recognized as an SE and failed.

Take care
Hansi


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Kimberli
post Mar 6 2012, 12:35 AM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 5 2012, 11:47 PM) *
You very kind Kimberly, but how about starting with "Rabanna" one of my pet projects.

All of you, please start with this, and I jump in as soon as I can.

I start you off:
Rabanna (1947) (Rasik x Banna) a Saqlawi Jidraniya, bred by D F Gallaher, Calistoga,cA, USA
And owned by Richard Pritzlaff, Sapello, NM, USA
Remember I was fighting for her to recognized as an SE and failed.

Take care
Hansi


I think Rabanna would be a good one to start with. I was trying to think of one that would not offend anyone... I know sometimes that is hard!
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dgfour
post Mar 6 2012, 12:47 AM
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There's an old story that says that the bedouin would not look at the horse until they had an opportunity to examine the pedigree and if the pedigree was not satisfactory there was no interest in even looking at the horse
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2mntn
post Mar 6 2012, 01:18 AM
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QUOTE (dgfour @ Mar 5 2012, 05:47 PM) *
There's an old story that says that the bedouin would not look at the horse until they had an opportunity to examine the pedigree and if the pedigree was not satisfactory there was no interest in even looking at the horse


I'm not sure how that would have worked, since the Bedu did not read or write. Of course, they would have been given a verbal background of a given horse and been able to make a decision based upon that.

Foir the topic in general, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "being able to read a pedigree". A pedigree is just a long list of names which is meaningless without some knowledge of the horses shown in the pedigree. If someone has that knowledge, then they need to see the horse represented by the pedigree in order to make some guesses as to which ancestors might be coming forward and expressing themselves in the various "pieces-parts" of the individual. So, for the direct offspring of desert-breds, for instance, we don't know a darn thing about the pedigree, so we just have to see how the horse produces and develop a knowledge of the pedigree from there.
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HLM
post Mar 6 2012, 02:31 AM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 6 2012, 03:18 AM) *
I'm not sure how that would have worked, since the Bedu did not read or write. Of course, they would have been given a verbal background of a given horse and been able to make a decision based upon that.

Foir the topic in general, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "being able to read a pedigree". A pedigree is just a long list of names which is meaningless without some knowledge of the horses shown in the pedigree. If someone has that knowledge, then they need to see the horse represented by the pedigree in order to make some guesses as to which ancestors might be coming forward and expressing themselves in the various "pieces-parts" of the individual. So, for the direct offspring of desert-breds, for instance, we don't know a darn thing about the pedigree, so we just have to see how the horse produces and develop a knowledge of the pedigree from there.



Dear Ray

I think what is meant to tell what any of us know of horses in a given pedigree. Looking at a horse and knowing some of the important ancestors is a great help I think. How often have we read " the legendary this or that" or emphazing a particular horse, when there is no evidence of such endearment. But you are right, the horse we are looking at, has to show some of the genetic values. And then it becomes trial and error.

As you know various horses are "Fad horses" and people get on the bandwaggon hoping for the best.
This is a great problem I feel. some wont buy a top horse because they dont like the owner, or some buy a horse because they like the owner. I dont think this is the way to go about it.

Take care
Hansi

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dkz
post Mar 6 2012, 03:46 PM
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from Ray's post - For the topic in general, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "being able to read a pedigree".

Oh Ray, I do believe there really is such a thing as "being able to read a pedigree". First, as far as not being able to see the ancestors that are too far back, you have to partially go by accounts of people you trust that have seen them, take what they say and compare to what you already know. As you said it involves looking at offspring, and then comparing as many of those as possible. I really do appreciate a well done line bred pedigree because it narrows down the variations I can expect without the great possibility of locking in traits I don't want as would many times be the case of a highly in bred pedigree. I do like to evaluate highly inbred pedigrees though because it gives me a first hand visual of what traits are available from certain horses in their pedigrees. Also position in the pedigree is a plus or minus for certain horses because of certain attributes that seem to come down from them due to where they appear. I was taught to read pedigrees from someone, now sadly gone, (not Arabians) whom I wish I could have learned so much more. So yes I do believe their is a right way to read or evaluate a pedigree and getting first hand knowledge from people who were there to actually see the horses is a good start. I will not even look at a horse if I don't like the pedigree because if I don't see what I want in the pedigree in all probability it can't produce offspring I would be happy with. The pedigree tells me the ingredients I have to work with and what I should need to bring it out (hopefully). I don't need a lot of mediocre horses so the best place to start is with a good horse that looks like it's pedigree (for that we need to know how to read it). I am only going to make a tiny difference in the gene pool with my breeding program. I want my decisions to be as good as possible.








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2mntn
post Mar 6 2012, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (dkz @ Mar 6 2012, 08:46 AM) *
from Ray's post - For the topic in general, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as "being able to read a pedigree".

Oh Ray, I do believe there really is such a thing as "being able to read a pedigree". First, as far as not being able to see the ancestors that are too far back, you have to partially go by accounts of people you trust that have seen them, take what they say and compare to what you already know. As you said it involves looking at offspring, and then comparing as many of those as possible. I really do appreciate a well done line bred pedigree because it narrows down the variations I can expect without the great possibility of locking in traits I don't want as would many times be the case of a highly in bred pedigree. I do like to evaluate highly inbred pedigrees though because it gives me a first hand visual of what traits are available from certain horses in their pedigrees. Also position in the pedigree is a plus or minus for certain horses because of certain attributes that seem to come down from them due to where they appear. I was taught to read pedigrees from someone, now sadly gone, (not Arabians) whom I wish I could have learned so much more. So yes I do believe their is a right way to read or evaluate a pedigree and getting first hand knowledge from people who were there to actually see the horses is a good start. I will not even look at a horse if I don't like the pedigree because if I don't see what I want in the pedigree in all probability it can't produce offspring I would be happy with. The pedigree tells me the ingredients I have to work with and what I should need to bring it out (hopefully). I don't need a lot of mediocre horses so the best place to start is with a good horse that looks like it's pedigree (for that we need to know how to read it). I am only going to make a tiny difference in the gene pool with my breeding program. I want my decisions to be as good as possible.


Well, let's take a look at a famous example of some horses with the same pedigree. The sons of Bint Magidaa by Shaikh Al Badi. Ruminaja Ali, Ruminaja Bahjat, Ruminaja Fayez and Alidaar. Can we say we "knew" what would happen by looking at the pedigree and looking at the four sons? Then considering how they produced, are there some consistencies that seem to apply across the board for this pedigree and are passed along for several generations, or ??
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HLM
post Mar 6 2012, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 6 2012, 05:17 PM) *
Well, let's take a look at a famous example of some horses with the same pedigree. The sons of Bint Magidaa by Shaikh Al Badi. Ruminaja Ali, Ruminaja Bahjat, Ruminaja Fayez and Alidaar. Can we say we "knew" what would happen by looking at the pedigree and looking at the four sons? Then considering how they produced, are there some consistencies that seem to apply across the board for this pedigree and are passed along for several generations, or ??



Dear Ray
I think so. Alaa El Din (goal) (1956) was a race winner- raced 1/6(1-1-1)3. So was his sire raced
2/20(4-6-1), so was his sire Mansour.
Female line: Antar was a race champion etc.

In particular Alidaar was very athletic, and basically the entire Magidaa line needs to be considered as being athletic and beautiful. the unfortunate part is that numerous offspring/offspring were/are not under saddle and cant prove what they can do. So here we are guessing but cn strongly consider it..

We can say this or more about various ancestors in the pedigree of many SEs here and abroad.
I for one,always bred for the athletic horse, a horse with stamina, speed,courage and of course attitude/disposition
and looking like an arab horse.If I would not have done/doing it, I would have to consider myself a failure as a breeder of Equine.


take care
Hansi
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Kimberli
post Mar 7 2012, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 6 2012, 06:35 PM) *
Dear Ray
I think so. Alaa El Din (goal) (1956) was a race winner- raced 1/6(1-1-1)3. So was his sire raced
2/20(4-6-1), so was his sire Mansour.
Female line: Antar was a race champion etc.

In particular Alidaar was very athletic, and basically the entire Magidaa line needs to be considered as being athletic and beautiful. the unfortunate part is that numerous offspring/offspring were/are not under saddle and cant prove what they can do. So here we are guessing but cn strongly consider it..

We can say this or more about various ancestors in the pedigree of many SEs here and abroad.
I for one,always bred for the athletic horse, a horse with stamina, speed,courage and of course attitude/disposition
and looking like an arab horse.If I would not have done/doing it, I would have to consider myself a failure as a breeder of Equine.


take care
Hansi


Hansi, that is not reading a pedigree... You can do better than that. Racing record are but one thing. come on, give it to us!
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diane
post Mar 7 2012, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 7 2012, 03:35 AM) *
Dear Ray
I think so. Alaa El Din (goal) (1956) was a race winner- raced 1/6(1-1-1)3. So was his sire raced
2/20(4-6-1), so was his sire Mansour.
Female line: Antar was a race champion etc.

In particular Alidaar was very athletic, and basically the entire Magidaa line needs to be considered as being athletic and beautiful. the unfortunate part is that numerous offspring/offspring were/are not under saddle and cant prove what they can do. So here we are guessing but cn strongly consider it..

We can say this or more about various ancestors in the pedigree of many SEs here and abroad.
I for one,always bred for the athletic horse, a horse with stamina, speed,courage and of course attitude/disposition
and looking like an arab horse.If I would not have done/doing it, I would have to consider myself a failure as a breeder of Equine.

take care
Hansi

It's quite interesting that when discussing asils with the concept that they are Bedouin desertbred horses or from same, that there is the tendency to example the achievements of those in a pedigree in terms of the stallions and their achievements, even when discussing the "female line"!

For me, racing isn't the be all and end all of performance achievement, though it is a performance attribute. An ability of the asil, in a ghazu/raid would have been to turn sharply, along with the ability to flee or chase as fast as they could. Where does straight racing show the ability to turn sharply? I feel there is so much more to a performance Arabian than simply being fast in races.

As has been mentioned, pedigrees have the potential to hold a lot of information. To utilise that information would be to know each of the individuals in that pedigree (their strengths and weaknesses / whether they are dominant or not). What Lies Beneath: a look at the importance of a pedigree by Betty Finke.

More interestingly, the pedigree is rarely reviewed in purely Bedouin terms - from the tail female (via their strain name) through to the present day individual, only acknowledging that the individual sires per generation are asil.

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HLM
post Mar 7 2012, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE (diane @ Mar 7 2012, 02:26 PM) *
It's quite interesting that when discussing asils with the concept that they are Bedouin desertbred horses or from same, that there is the tendency to example the achievements of those in a pedigree in terms of the stallions and their achievements, even when discussing the "female line"!

For me, racing isn't the be all and end all of performance achievement, though it is a performance attribute. An ability of the asil, in a ghazu/raid would have been to turn sharply, along with the ability to flee or chase as fast as they could. Where does straight racing show the ability to turn sharply? I feel there is so much more to a performance Arabian than simply being fast in races.

As has been mentioned, pedigrees have the potential to hold a lot of information. To utilise that information would be to know each of the individuals in that pedigree (their strengths and weaknesses / whether they are dominant or not). What Lies Beneath: a look at the importance of a pedigree by Betty Finke.

More interestingly, the pedigree is rarely reviewed in purely Bedouin terms - from the tail female (via their strain name) through to the present day individual, only acknowledging that the individual sires per generation are asil.



Diane, I had hoped that you understood me better. When I speak of racing I also speak of endurance, and there is where the talents come in you mention.

What you neglected to state is how you determine, or anybody, what attributes breeders brought along by chosing mating. When I see breeders in a pedigree who I know bought the horse for investment, does not know from which end it eats, and breed as to what is good on the dinner table that day.ISometimes you have various such people the breeders. Right there and then I AWAKE, AND UNLESS I saw the horse in the flesh, have to consider ignorance and/or greed. When I see known knowledgeable breeders in it, I m trying to figure out how they concluded to breed this way and in most all cases understand. Evidence further is when such breeding is repeated, obviously the breeder being very satisfied with the results..
this is ardent research and only gives a guideline. The clue comes when we such such horse in the flesh and note what it has done.

If I were that wrong in my evaluating a pedigree, hundreds of SEs would not stand on baby hoofs, have no rearend of power, tiple toe through the tulips due to short strides, etc.etc. run out of breath because of lack of girth, and on and on.No horse is perfect, but what was imported in the past from Babson to 1972 or so, were excellent individuals most of which I know in the flesh as some of their ancestors,. what did not muster was treated accordingly.

Just my opinion through my experiences.
Hansi
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