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> Blue Star,blue List, Sub Groups, Ms Ott's catalogue
Dieter
post Mar 19 2012, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Mar 19 2012, 10:42 AM) *
I justified nothing, and made a very strong point of being clear about that in my post. I emphatically stated that I abhor the idea in any case other than if a horse is actually suffering. I do find a public act of manipulation and greed to be more abhorant than an act of private fanatic idealism, however, I have never stated that I could not respect the work of either of these women based solely on this one act...you did.
Where did I state I could not respect the work of either of these women based solely on this one act? I do not respect Ott because she killed her horses for no reason other than believing them to be/produce ugly and did so to protect the reputation of the Blue Star label, which she alone created to solely promote her horses as purest of the pure, which is ridiculous.

Otherwise, you're entitled to your feelings, but whenever you use the word NEVER, I have to raise an eyebrow Caryn.
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Kimberli
post Mar 19 2012, 03:15 PM
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Liz,

Where did this come from? "Ott because she killed her horses for no reason other than believing them to be/produce ugly and did so to protect the reputation of the Blue Star label"... Taken out of context from your post and I am sorry for that but wanted to address this statement.

It is not my understanding that they were destroyed for this reason. Where this came from might enlighten us a bit.
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Dieter
post Mar 19 2012, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 19 2012, 11:15 AM) *
Liz,

Where did this come from? "Ott because she killed her horses for no reason other than believing them to be/produce ugly and did so to protect the reputation of the Blue Star label"... Taken out of context from your post and I am sorry for that but wanted to address this statement.

It is not my understanding that they were destroyed for this reason. Where this came from might enlighten us a bit.
Perhaps you missed the post by Fairfax in another thread? That's where it came from and because he was well-acquainted, I don't doubt him. What is your understanding?
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Fairfax
post Mar 19 2012, 03:24 PM
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As Miss Jane stated to Judy Forbis: "If you don't like it, ignore it" Of course Judy and so many others were quick to denouce the Blue Star however they definitely bragged up the Blue List. Again, that was no concern for the Ott's.

Ms. Jane is "very mature" and I understand she is not going to make any revisions nor updates.

Hansi...you know very well that once an ad has gone to press and is printed in a publically circulated magazine or newspaper one does not need premission to reprint AS IT IS. I know that as I owned the publication "The International Horses Mouth" with a circulation of 33,000 in the 1980's.

Dieter...IIf you have EVER euthanized ANY ANIMAL FOR ANY REASON then you are double speaking

There was a difference...The Otts did not send their horses to slaughter nor were they inflicted with any discomfort. Ms Jane was very well aware of the length of time some horses took to die when injected and she watched a favourite old mare, die a painful death after the vet injected her. She stated she would NEVER again use a vet. So they were shot.

I explained before WHY they did this with a specific group.

Hansi used an emotional blackmail whereas the Ott's did not.

Most of the readers do not understand the HATRED directed towards the Otts due to this program. The President of IAHA, no less than Dick Newman owner of Mujahid, had a biyline "Home of the Blues" to spite the Otts attempt to stop others from using the Blue Star moniker. Imagine the smirk on the face of Mrs. E. Ott when he was forced to resign after it was disclosed he was the "behind the scenes" financier for the Blood Typing Lab that ALL Arabian Horse owners were forced to use.

As for Bill Sheets. The Otts thought he was an idiot. He inbred a stallion they held in contempt (right or wrong) and while I realize he was a great friend to Hansi he was NOT one to the Otts. They saw through him quickly.

I have spoken with many who stated Sheets was NEVER there when any horse was destroyed. Guess that comes down to who one should believe.

I think this is staying on topic as it always comes back to credibility. The Otts researched at great expense, the background for the horses catalogued. Who is to say their sources were any less credible than the sources now quoted. It comes down to TRUST.

There have been many horses over the years whose papers were pulled "as they were suspected". Blood typing (a very ineffective method BUT the only one available at that time) resulted in the removal of many horses from many breeders, including I might add, Hansi..

Pedigrees are a BELIEF. All geneology is. With new technology we can tell what the pedigree is not..but we can not tell what it is.

There is much to thank the Otts for. One doesn't need to follow their program, but any serious breeder should at least acquire and study the Blue Star Catalogue so they can understand its purpose and its use.
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Caryn Rogosky
post Mar 19 2012, 03:25 PM
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I was told by a longtime friend of Miss Ott and Mrs.Ott that this was done at a time when Miss Ott was suffering badly, overwhelmed with a great deal of emotional overload and angst. I can't say if it is true or not -- but seems quite possible to me.
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Dieter
post Mar 19 2012, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE (Fairfax @ Mar 19 2012, 11:24 AM) *
As Miss Jane stated to Judy Forbis: "If you don't like it, ignore it" Of course Judy and so many others were quick to denouce the Blue Star however they definitely bragged up the Blue List. Again, that was no concern for the Ott's.

Ms. Jane is "very mature" and I understand she is not going to make any revisions nor updates.

Hansi...you know very well that once an ad has gone to press and is printed in a publically circulated magazine or newspaper one does not need premission to reprint AS IT IS. I know that as I owned the publication "The International Horses Mouth" with a circulation of 33,000 in the 1980's.

Dieter...IIf you have EVER euthanized ANY ANIMAL FOR ANY REASON then you are double speaking

There was a difference...The Otts did not send their horses to slaughter nor were they inflicted with any discomfort. Ms Jane was very well aware of the length of time some horses took to die when injected and she watched a favourite old mare, die a painful death after the vet injected her. She stated she would NEVER again use a vet. So they were shot.

I explained before WHY they did this with a specific group.

Hansi used an emotional blackmail whereas the Ott's did not.

Most of the readers do not understand the HATRED directed towards the Otts due to this program. The President of IAHA, no less than Dick Newman owner of Mujahid, had a biyline "Home of the Blues" to spite the Otts attempt to stop others from using the Blue Star moniker. Imagine the smirk on the face of Mrs. E. Ott when he was forced to resign after it was disclosed he was the "behind the scenes" financier for the Blood Typing Lab that ALL Arabian Horse owners were forced to use.

As for Bill Sheets. The Otts thought he was an idiot. He inbred a stallion they held in contempt (right or wrong) and while I realize he was a great friend to Hansi he was NOT one to the Otts. They saw through him quickly.

I have spoken with many who stated Sheets was NEVER there when any horse was destroyed. Guess that comes down to who one should believe.

I think this is staying on topic as it always comes back to credibility. The Otts researched at great expense, the background for the horses catalogued. Who is to say their sources were any less credible than the sources now quoted. It comes down to TRUST.

There have been many horses over the years whose papers were pulled "as they were suspected". Blood typing (a very ineffective method BUT the only one available at that time) resulted in the removal of many horses from many breeders, including I might add, Hansi..

Pedigrees are a BELIEF. All geneology is. With new technology we can tell what the pedigree is not..but we can not tell what it is.

There is much to thank the Otts for. One doesn't need to follow their program, but any serious breeder should at least acquire and study the Blue Star Catalogue so they can understand its purpose and its use.

Thank you Fairfax for clarifying. Appreciate it.
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Fairfax
post Mar 19 2012, 03:31 PM
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The reason a SMALL GROUP were destroyed was as follows. The mares had been sold to an individual who was going to do great things with the Blue Star mares. (This was early on) Instead he bred them to everything available. The Otts tried to purchase them back and he refused (there were rumours as to who was behind his purchase--providing the money) anyway...he ran into problems and the horses were purchased at public auction by the Otts. They knew that the resulting foals would be paraded to all, as an example of Blue Star Program breeding.

The decision was made to put down these offspring. During that time, they could have refused to register, however the anger by some, against the Blue Star program was such that the registry would have granted special consideration to register these resulting offspring WITH OR WITHOUT the permission of the Otts.

They did not sell them to slaughter. They did not try and make money off of them. They put them down. We are talking of fewer than ten.

Of course there are individuals who scream and cry FOUL...How dare they...>>> Well, they did dare...and that was and still would be...their right. I would rather that, than have the horses circulated to breeders attempting to capitalize.

I have heard of quite a few S.E. breeders who sold mares, and when they were crossed with Polish and Balbona/German NON ASIL stallions, purchased them back and destroiy the offspring. Where is the difference?

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Caryn Rogosky
post Mar 19 2012, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE (Fairfax @ Mar 19 2012, 05:24 PM) *
Pedigrees are a BELIEF. All geneology is. With new technology we can tell what the pedigree is not..but we can not tell what it is.


I think that's the crux of the whole matter. It's true, and that doesn't sit well with everyone. Once we recognize that fact we are humbled to understand that no Arabian horse can be proved to be pure...even the so called "purest of the pure". Sort of knocks the wind out of the sails of those who enjoy calling other people's bloodlines into question.
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2mntn
post Mar 19 2012, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (Fairfax @ Mar 19 2012, 01:14 AM) *
Darn it Ray. You make these jumps into space but you need to make sure you are not going to land on rocks. Ms Jane Ott WROTE EVERY ARTICLE AND THE BLUE STAR CATALOGUE.

Mrs. E. Ott wrote every letter correcting others who thought she (MRS Ott) was the author. It was based on the studies of the daughter.

Dr. Ott was an M.D. I do not recall them ever short of money. I do know they stated to my Dad on numerous occasions that they had gone too far to quit and I was told by those close to Ms. Jane Ott that she confirmed that and felt it was money well spent.

Jane had started to notice differences between her Arabian horses (pre catalogue, pre asil etc). She met Carl Raswan and he explained strains to her and how they could influence everything from appearance to bravery.

She studied her mares and every Arabian she could come across. She had more questions. As Raswan gave her more information she started to see if it applied to her horses. It appeared it did. She felt there was something missing in her "now called" general lines. She dispersed of all but a couple of old favourites.

The more she studied the writings of Raswan, the more she wanted to know. The Ott family approached Ambassadors, Consulates etc. It was very difficult, very expensive and took a long time to get an answer to one question. Ms. Jane continued on.

She was an accomplished artist and her work hung in the homes of many of the Top Ten breeders of that era.

Her dislike for Munqui was the difference in form, shape and balance. When shown examples of Muniqui crossed to Saglawi, she saw formation faults IN HER OPINION.

Mr. Raswan, on the other hand LOVED the Muniqui and always wanted to acquire either a backer or have money to acquire and breed them within strain.

He felt they were VERY NECESSARY to the continuation of the purebred Arabian.

According to Mr. Raswan, the breeders known to breed the purist of the pure, were the ones who explained THEIR Muniqui theory.

Ms Jane Ott has ALWAYS been very clear...buy into it or don't. She didn't care and she was not going to "improve" to make people happy, inclusive or anything else. Mr. Lee Ollerich (spelling?) followed the Blue Star principle down to the dotted i. He did not every deviate and he stated the Blue Star THEORY was proven to himself.

It is interesting that MRS E OTT would pay to have a stallion of theirs shipped to the owner of a mare OR they would pay to have the mare shipped to them.

I also know (regarding the one million dollars) that it was printed in an article written by Bill Simpson Editor of the International Pony and Driver. I will look and see if I still have a copy.

I know MRS> E. Ott would laugh out loud that the debate is still going on. To her, that would be vindication.

There was a time a person could not purchase a Blue Star Mare for less than $20,000 IF it was breeding quality. They never claimed all Blue Stars were good or should be bred. Just that they were the purist of the pure.

I am sure Ms. Ott, if her health would support her, would continue research using what has been found..and she would have checked it out to her satisfaction. Of COURSE she printed statements or theories that have now been questioned. They were printed at a pre internet and quick travel time.

This will prove my point. Here is an Ad placed by Hansi in the 1980's. She would have believed it THEN but times change or more information arrives and it would be unfair to say that this is the way Hansi would create an ad now.



Hi Leo,

I am not sure what you mean by "jumping into space". My copy of ARABIANA has at least three articles indicating they were written "by MRS. JOHN EKERN OTT". Perhaps this was an error by the editor? If not in error, it would appear that the pen of MRS JOHN EKERN OTT was equally as prolific as that of JANE LLEWELYN OTT.

As far as Raswan and the "Muniqi thing", JANE made it very clear in her article on Arabian Types and Strains - see page 151 and 152 of Arabiana. I don't think I have misinterpreted any of this. I find NOTHING about Raswan having any "affection" for Muniqi. "Specifically, he called the Mu'niqi part Turcoman,..". (Jane Ott, Arabiana, page 151). Perhaps Raswan expressed his love for Mu'niqi at a different time and place?
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Nadj al Nur
post Mar 19 2012, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 19 2012, 09:12 AM) *
Perhaps Raswan expressed his love for Mu'niqi at a different time and place?

He did indeed Ray, after a fashion. He had a great deal of respect for Muniqui blood. He just did not think it should be bred into the other strains. He thought it should have been preserved separately. Do you have the index?
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HLM
post Mar 19 2012, 05:21 PM
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QUOTE (Caryn Rogosky @ Mar 19 2012, 03:53 PM) *
ARE YOU JOKING??? More to the point, who could possibly get behind a person who THREATENS to killl her horses in a SALES AD if she doesn't get the prices she wants? Especially when those prices are quoted at $40,000 - $215.000 for each STRAIGHT EGYPTIAN female? Much higher minimums than what she is demanding for Domestic breds, I might add..this woman who disdains "labels", and feels that a label should not effect the price of an Arabian horse. And how absurd to suggest that unless they go for these prices they might suffer or starve! Revolting bit of manipulative blackmail...

As much as I abhor the idea of anyone putting their horses down for any other reason than that they are actually suffering, there is a major difference here. Miss Ott did it based upon an ideal and a principal, at least to her mind -- not to make more money by threatening in a sales ad! And yet you so have no quarms about "getting behind" this kind of person.

The subject of this ad and the threat to kill the horses has been discussed before, and strongly denied by Hansi if I recall correctly, and to see it here in black and white is VERY disturbing on so many levels. The hypocrisy is almost overwhelming. So very disgusted.



Mrs Rogowski

I am warning you one more time to refrain from your intrepetation. I declared openly that what can not be sold, would be detroyed,meaning what is too old, injured or would have trouble being care for by others. It would explain to NORMAL PEOPLE WHAT IT MEANT and those knowing me.!

What SERENITY does is none of your business, or what I do. Every topic I start, no matter what forum ,you and your clieque follow like an ant loored to food and destroy it with what is in my opinion a perverte mind., You cant help yourself but creating trouble and have a cliquie joining you.

You and your clique should be banned from any forum as neither has ever achieved anything great with regard to our arabian horses, other than idle or often dumb talk and creating trouble.

Hansi Heck-Melnyk
Serenity Arabian Farms

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2mntn
post Mar 19 2012, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (Nadj al Nur @ Mar 19 2012, 11:09 AM) *
He did indeed Ray, after a fashion. He had a great deal of respect for Muniqui blood. He just did not think it should be bred into the other strains. He thought it should have been preserved separately. Do you have the index?


No, I do not have the index.

I can understand preserving a strain in tail-female and I can also understand reasons for breeding for, or against, a phenotype. As I mentioned elsewhere, I find the concept that Mu'niqi could have been preserved separately rather difficult to understand, especially coming from Raswan. He had to have been aware that the Mu'niqi strain, one of the oldest of the known strains of the breed, was most likely present in all other individuals. There is evidence that the Al Khalifa family of Bahrain, originally from the central Najd, had the Ma'anagi (Mu'niqi) strain since the 1600's.

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Kimberli
post Mar 19 2012, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 19 2012, 06:21 PM) *
Mrs Rogowski

I am warning you one more time to refrain from your intrepetation. I declared openly that what can not be sold, would be detroyed,meaning what is too old, injured or would have trouble being care for by others. It would explain to NORMAL PEOPLE WHAT IT MEANT and those knowing me.!

What SERENITY does is none of your business, or what I do. Every topic I start, no matter what forum ,you and your clieque follow like an ant loored to food and destroy it with what is in my opinion a perverte mind., You cant help yourself but creating trouble and have a cliquie joining you.

You and your clique should be banned from any forum as neither has ever achieved anything great with regard to our arabian horses, other than idle or often dumb talk and creating trouble.

Hansi Heck-Melnyk
Serenity Arabian Farms



Stop it Hansi. Now you are just being rude and You are a better person this this. What you mean is not always what you say. Sad but true. When the word is written it is up to the reader to interpret the meaning of it. Everyone should be very careful of what we write because it CAN be misinterpreted. I am a normal person Hansi and when I read that ad I felt the same way Caryn does. But after many years of knowing you I understand you better and know what you should have said. It is sad that we can not undo the past, I am sure that many of us would take back many of the hurtful words we have used.


My grandmother told me once that if I could not say something nice, not to say anything at all. So I am going to repeat her words to our wonderful community...IF you can't say something NICE, DON"T say anything at all. (and as was pointed out to me by fellow breeder, just because it is honest does not mean it is nice)
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Caryn Rogosky
post Mar 19 2012, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 19 2012, 07:21 PM) *
Mrs Rogowski

I am warning you one more time to refrain from your intrepetation. I declared openly that what can not be sold, would be detroyed,meaning what is too old, injured or would have trouble being care for by others. It would explain to NORMAL PEOPLE WHAT IT MEANT and those knowing me.!

What SERENITY does is none of your business, or what I do. Every topic I start, no matter what forum ,you and your clieque follow like an ant loored to food and destroy it with what is in my opinion a perverte mind., You cant help yourself but creating trouble and have a cliquie joining you.

You and your clique should be banned from any forum as neither has ever achieved anything great with regard to our arabian horses, other than idle or often dumb talk and creating trouble.

Hansi Heck-Melnyk
Serenity Arabian Farms


Please don't threaten me Hansi. What you said is in black and white and if I misinterpreted it so did dozens of other people that I know who read your ad (and would qualify as "Normal") and were appalled. What Serenity does is everybody's business if you make it public. You started this thread -- which you know full well is controversial. If you don't want controversy you might want to consider not immersing yourself in it. Just because people disagree with you and are willing to say so, it doesn't make them trouble makers.
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Kimberli
post Mar 19 2012, 05:50 PM
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The only clique we need to concern ourselves with is the one WE ALL BELONG to. The clique of wanting to SAVE the ASIL Arabian horse. Everything else is just plain stupid and is going to ruin the breed. We only have few to work with worldwide and everyone, good bad, pretty, ugly or bred by politics or research is tremendously important to the over all health of the breed.

The infighting, the rude words, the hurt that is caused is sickening. You expect new people to get involved with us? Not a chance. I have brought a lot of new people to the SE and the SE/SO horses but none will participate on any forum as they live in fear of being attacked by their fellow breeders.

We deserve better than this, from every person here.
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