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> Blue Star,blue List, Sub Groups, Ms Ott's catalogue
HLM
post Mar 19 2012, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 19 2012, 04:31 PM) *
I don't see that those participating in the thread honor and revere the Otts or even follow the principals of the Blue Catalog. It is a fact that the BC is a private work, published and sold privately,and is a record of their findings. Therefore, it is a book of opinions and fact as it was known at the time. It is a great work indeed, considering the time in which it was completed,

Those who wished to follow did and those who did not raised hell. The reason Basilisk was sub-listed is stated in the Catalog. I heard a different story but it is very personal and I will not ever repeat it. To me the fact that her parents were listed as BS(If I remember correctly) was enough for me to use the blood (after I came to understand it in its entirety) Many opportunities were missed because she was sub-listed therefore considered less of a true source. The Otts did this mare a great dis-service that is very similar to what was done to Exochorda. I believe that it was done in error.

Today, the Blue Catalog can only be changed or updated the Jane Ott or whomever she allows to do it for her. She has not done this in the many years that have past since the last update was published and I highly doubt she ever will. The Blue Catalog is part of our history and makes for interesting reading. Basing a breeding program on this old outdated book is foolish as we have more information now than we ever have and more coming because of the few people willing and able to look deeper into sources that are still available.

As for killing stock... While to don't agree with it, it was and still is the prerogative of the owner.



Dear Kimberly

It never seizes to amaze me how things can get destorted.
Billy Sheets Jr, (unfortunately passed away) I knew since he was 6 months old ), was like a son to me and once stayed with us for almost one year. He was DEaD HONEST, very kind and intelligent, and a Wizzard of HORSES AND PEDIGREES AND A VERY HARD WORKER AND EXCELLENT RIDER,. He was in tears when he told me that Ms Ott personally shot 16-18 of her horses that morning , than had to stop and called the veterinarian to do the rest, a total of 21 head. I have never seen these horses and can not judge. He was their guest various times and witnessed a alot.

The reason was that she had trouble selling any, PEOPLE LIKED DIFFERENT TYPES AND CONFORMATION, and Liz Dieter therefore is not fare off,and did not have enough funds to bUy feed to bring them over the winter and could not think of anybody giving them to for fear of abuse. I myself would rather put my horses down than let them go into abusive hands, let them suffer and/or mistreat them. they simply DONT DESERVE THIS>
Walter Schimansky also had trouble selling , as he told me, but the invention of the Sheykh Obeyd Label gave him a break, AS HE TOLD ME. We were close friends since 1967 and trusted each other.
I have a whole file of correspondence with him too.

However, the Topic Was blue list and Blue Star and I personally find it difficult to recognize many as Blue Stars and explained the reason,.

As far as "Basilisk" is concerned, this line is in thousands of horses and doing well. I no longer use the term "Sub-Basilisk" but my database shows them as "Asil/Basilisk" when it fits. Reason, she was not accepted as a blue list/blue star horse at that time. By no means does this label make horses "pure" ,"Asils" as I have hundreds of SES in my database with a questionable pedigree/parentage.
Some German breeders think, if the SEs,do not have these labels, they cant be pure, which is UTTER AND THOROUGH NONSENSE!


BTW I have seen photos which are the opposite of what Mrs Ott stated- coarse bone etc,, could not detect such from such photos. I saw a lovely mare-Basilisk , a beautiful conformed mare in such, , straight desert bred face.

Now each one should please themself and stop the mud slinging. turning a mowhill into a mountain. (I dont mean you Kimberly)



Take care
Hansi
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2mntn
post Mar 19 2012, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 19 2012, 11:33 AM) *
Stop it Hansi. Now you are just being rude and You are a better person this this. What you mean is not always what you say. Sad but true. When the word is written it is up to the reader to interpret the meaning of it. Everyone should be very careful of what we write because it CAN be misinterpreted. I am a normal person Hansi and when I read that ad I felt the same way Caryn does. But after many years of knowing you I understand you better and know what you should have said. It is sad that we can not undo the past, I am sure that many of us would take back many of the hurtful words we have used.


My grandmother told me once that if I could not say something, not to say anything at all. So I am going to repeat her words to our wonderful community...IF you can't say something NICE, DON"T say anything at all. (and as was pointed out to me by fellow breeder, just because it is honest does not mean it is nice)


Kimberli - any of us "baby-boomers", sitting here in 2012 and looking at that advertisment from 1986 might feel "uncomfortable" with the wording. Hell, we can't even spank our own kids, mention God, pray in public or recite the pledge of allegiance. I do not agree that this was some sort of "emotional blackmail" as Leo has characterized. Anyone who has been to the bottom of the pit and seen no way out of it short of some drastic action will understand that statement for what it was at that time - it was the reality of the situation. Luckily, Hansi did not have to resort to that drastic action, but people love to take it out of context and beat her up with our present day "values".
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Caryn Rogosky
post Mar 19 2012, 05:56 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 19 2012, 06:21 PM) *
You and your clique should be banned from any forum as neither has ever achieved anything great with regard to our arabian horses, other than idle or often dumb talk and creating trouble.


If people should be banned from the forums because they have never achieved anything great with regard to their Arabian horses, according to your criteria, we would have very little participation on any forum. I am very proud of the horses I have bred. They are beautiful, well bred, well conformed, athletic and very kind spirited. Some have gone on to contribute to other's breeding programs, some are competing in sports, some are just beloved pets -- and all of that is fine with me. If the horses that I have bred and sold have brought joy, comfort and inspiration to other human beings, and if the horses themselves have had lives of good care and love, then I consider my work as a breeder to be everything I wanted it to be.
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HLM
post Mar 19 2012, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 19 2012, 07:53 PM) *
Kimberli - any of us "baby-boomers", sitting here in 2012 and looking at that advertisment from 1986 might feel "uncomfortable" with the wording. Hell, we can't even spank our own kids, mention God, pray in public or recite the pledge of allegiance. I do not agree that this was some sort of "emotional blackmail" as Leo has characterized. Anyone who has been to the bottom of the pit and seen no way out of it short of some drastic action will understand that statement for what it was at that time - it was the reality of the situation. Luckily, Hansi did not have to resort to that drastic action, but people love to take it out of context and beat her up with our present day "values".



Ray the problem was that the magazine did not put into correct words as to what I was to say.I explained that over and over again. And I did not read it carefully enough, as usual was so busy with other things, and am bad with advertisments, unless I get professional help.

Hansi
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Kimberli
post Mar 19 2012, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 19 2012, 06:53 PM) *
Kimberli - any of us "baby-boomers", sitting here in 2012 and looking at that advertisment from 1986 might feel "uncomfortable" with the wording. Hell, we can't even spank our own kids, mention God, pray in public or recite the pledge of allegiance. I do not agree that this was some sort of "emotional blackmail" as Leo has characterized. Anyone who has been to the bottom of the pit and seen no way out of it short of some drastic action will understand that statement for what it was at that time - it was the reality of the situation. Luckily, Hansi did not have to resort to that drastic action, but people love to take it out of context and beat her up with our present day "values".


Ray, When I read that ad, it was in 1986 right after I bought my beloved *Waheeb. I paid too much for him and was in hock for many years. I was new and IN LOVE with the Egyptian. I fell for the history and the Romance of the Arabian horse.

Hansi should never have said what she did. She has way to much love and respect for her horses to do what she said she would do. If she had said that she would need to put down the older horses that could not find good home it would have had a different impact on those who read it and I am sure it would not be repeated today. It is one of those many unfortunate things we live to regret.

I really don't think our values have changed that much since 1986. 1886 yes... It is not out of context, it is right there in front of us. She just did not mean EXACTLY what was printed. Those of us who have gotten to know her over the years understand what she was thinking.

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Kimberli
post Mar 19 2012, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (HLM @ Mar 19 2012, 06:50 PM) *
Dear Kimberly

It never seizes to amaze me how things can get destorted.
Billy Sheets Jr, (unfortunately passed away) I knew since he was 6 months old ), was like a son to me and once stayed with us for almost one year. He was DEaD HONEST, very kind and intelligent, and a Wizzard of HORSES AND PEDIGREES AND A VERY HARD WORKER AND EXCELLENT RIDER,. He was in tears when he told me that Ms Ott personally shot 16-18 of her horses that morning , than had to stop and called the veterinarian to do the rest, a total of 21 head. I have never seen these horses and can not judge. He was their guest various times and witnessed a alot.

The reason was that she had trouble selling any, PEOPLE LIKED DIFFERENT TYPES AND CONFORMATION, and Liz Dieter therefore is not fare off,and did not have enough funds to bUy feed to bring them over the winter and could not think of anybody giving them to for fear of abuse. I myself would rather put my horses down than let them go into abusive hands, let them suffer and/or mistreat them. they simply DONT DESERVE THIS>
Walter Schimansky also had trouble selling , as he told me, but the invention of the Sheykh Obeyd Label gave him a break, AS HE TOLD ME. We were close friends since 1967 and trusted each other.
I have a whole file of correspondence with him too.

However, the Topic Was blue list and Blue Star and I personally find it difficult to recognize many as Blue Stars and explained the reason,.

As far as "Basilisk" is concerned, this line is in thousands of horses and doing well. I no longer use the term "Sub-Basilisk" but my database shows them as "Asil/Basilisk" when it fits. Reason, she was not accepted as a blue list/blue star horse at that time. By no means does this label make horses "pure" ,"Asils" as I have hundreds of SES in my database with a questionable pedigree/parentage.
Some German breeders think, if the SEs,do not have these labels, they cant be pure, which is UTTER AND THOROUGH NONSENSE!


BTW I have seen photos which are the opposite of what Mrs Ott stated- coarse bone etc,, could not detect such from such photos. I saw a lovely mare-Basilisk , a beautiful conformed mare in such, , straight desert bred face.

Now each one should please themself and stop the mud slinging. turning a mowhill into a mountain. (I dont mean you Kimberly)



Take care
Hansi


It is a hard subject to understand as we only interpreted what someone else said or did. The important thing today is for US, the lovers and breeders of the Asil Arabian, to stick together, put aside our personal feeling for other people, and promote the Asil, which include the SE, SO, BS, BL, and those the Otts sub-listed. We need to stop ALL mud slinging and try to give a little space for everyone.

Bringing up old dead horses, questioning their provenance, questioning the Preservation groups or the people to breed and care for them is not helping save the horses that are import to us. We are few in the bigger scheme of things. a Million horses world wide and the Asil is many 10,000... scary to think that in one or two generations all our hard work will go for naught if we love new owners and breeders because of our attitude toward each other.
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HLM
post Mar 19 2012, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (Fairfax @ Mar 19 2012, 05:24 PM) *
As Miss Jane stated to Judy Forbis: "If you don't like it, ignore it" Of course Judy and so many others were quick to denouce the Blue Star however they definitely bragged up the Blue List. Again, that was no concern for the Ott's.

Ms. Jane is "very mature" and I understand she is not going to make any revisions nor updates.

Hansi...you know very well that once an ad has gone to press and is printed in a publically circulated magazine or newspaper one does not need premission to reprint AS IT IS. I know that as I owned the publication "The International Horses Mouth" with a circulation of 33,000 in the 1980's.

Dieter...IIf you have EVER euthanized ANY ANIMAL FOR ANY REASON then you are double speaking

There was a difference...The Otts did not send their horses to slaughter nor were they inflicted with any discomfort. Ms Jane was very well aware of the length of time some horses took to die when injected and she watched a favourite old mare, die a painful death after the vet injected her. She stated she would NEVER again use a vet. So they were shot.

I explained before WHY they did this with a specific group.

Hansi used an emotional blackmail whereas the Ott's did not.

Most of the readers do not understand the HATRED directed towards the Otts due to this program. The President of IAHA, no less than Dick Newman owner of Mujahid, had a biyline "Home of the Blues" to spite the Otts attempt to stop others from using the Blue Star moniker. Imagine the smirk on the face of Mrs. E. Ott when he was forced to resign after it was disclosed he was the "behind the scenes" financier for the Blood Typing Lab that ALL Arabian Horse owners were forced to use.

As for Bill Sheets. The Otts thought he was an idiot. He inbred a stallion they held in contempt (right or wrong) and while I realize he was a great friend to Hansi he was NOT one to the Otts. They saw through him quickly.

I have spoken with many who stated Sheets was NEVER there when any horse was destroyed. Guess that comes down to who one should believe.

I think this is staying on topic as it always comes back to credibility. The Otts researched at great expense, the background for the horses catalogued. Who is to say their sources were any less credible than the sources now quoted. It comes down to TRUST.

There have been many horses over the years whose papers were pulled "as they were suspected". Blood typing (a very ineffective method BUT the only one available at that time) resulted in the removal of many horses from many breeders, including I might add, Hansi..

Pedigrees are a BELIEF. All geneology is. With new technology we can tell what the pedigree is not..but we can not tell what it is.

There is much to thank the Otts for. One doesn't need to follow their program, but any serious breeder should at least acquire and study the Blue Star Catalogue so they can understand its purpose and its use.



Fairfax.
You are confusing Billy Sheets Jr with his father, who moved to KY. Billy Sheets jr NEVER OWNED A HORSE,
THEREFORE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN IN THE BREDDING BUSINESS aS i SAID BEFORE, HIS grandfather and father did.
If the Otts would not have loved Billy (junior) they would have not let him stay various times at their home. they all were my close neighbors in Canada and we visited each other very often. Mr Sheets sr, grandfather of Billy jr, did more than many for the Arabian Horses in Canada. He also bred beautiful one.

Hansi

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Teymur B
post Mar 19 2012, 06:47 PM
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Mu'niqi derives from the Arabian terms mi'niq or ma'naq for "long neck".
Here, long and angular body lines are the distinguishing mark.
Mu'niqis are long and narrow with a long neck, a long and not always strongly coupled back, long limbs and a comparatively long and narrow, sometimes coarse head without any dish and with smaller eyes set higher in the forehead.
Their withers are set higher, the root of the tail lower and the croup is sloping more.
A long shoulder, a long humerus, a short cannon bone and onot overly strongly angled hind legs also belong to this type.
As a reason for the development of this type, Raswan gives the explanation that from about 1630 on, some of the nomadic Bedouin tribes from the middle and the south of Arabia relocated their migrations into the areas to the west of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, getting into contact with the Turkomans living there.
They had their mares covered with Turkmen stallions: the resulting horse were Arabians with a "racing horse conformation" who were only marginally similar to the "classical types".
This Mare in the Picture is a Seklaviye Cedraniye, Tailfemale: Sapha.1923
You see, she is similar to the Mu'niqi Type.
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Fairfax
post Mar 19 2012, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 19 2012, 05:12 PM) *
Hi Leo,

I am not sure what you mean by "jumping into space". My copy of ARABIANA has at least three articles indicating they were written "by MRS. JOHN EKERN OTT". Perhaps this was an error by the editor? If not in error, it would appear that the pen of MRS JOHN EKERN OTT was equally as prolific as that of JANE LLEWELYN OTT.

As far as Raswan and the "Muniqi thing", JANE made it very clear in her article on Arabian Types and Strains - see page 151 and 152 of Arabiana. I don't think I have misinterpreted any of this. I find NOTHING about Raswan having any "affection" for Muniqi. "Specifically, he called the Mu'niqi part Turcoman,..". (Jane Ott, Arabiana, page 151). Perhaps Raswan expressed his love for Mu'niqi at a different time and place?



Mrs E Ott was very protective of Miss Jane as was Bill Simpson. If there was something considered to be controversial Mrs E Ott would put her name to it. This is the problem with new comers to the breed. They do not understand "the rest of the story": so they only go by what they see...and of course..how would they know otherwise.

Mr. Raswan tried to get several breeders to set up a pure in strain Muniqui breeding farm. He believed they too had so much value and would be needed to "up grade the Polish" lines...especially for racing.

The fact he called them part Turcoman means nothing. He readily acknowledged that occured hundreds of years prior AND they were breeding pure to type. He always wanted Richard Pritzlaff to breed them..

Context and content can not be determined by a few articles here and there. One must look at the whole body of work AND also the written or verbal accounts of those who knew the person.

Example: I know Hansi loves her horses. I know Hansi wrote an ad threatening to kill them. Why would I only accept that Hansi was going to kill her horses if she could not sell them for outrageous prices based on ONE Ad? You should know there is so much more to Hansi however if you can't accept that about other authors, then you must hold Hansi to the same level. I know Hansi wrote her own ads AND had full control of them as I helped the late Sandi Fischer Lynch who was the editor of the Canadian Arabian Horse news and I remember the number of faxes that transpired before the ad was correct to the satisfaction of Hansi..and that is the way it should be.

For you now to put in a correction that those would be old or injured horses makes it SOUND even worse...why would you be trying to sell old and injured horses for $40,000 and up?

Again...The Otts did not care if anyone liked, didn't like believed or didn't believe. They became elevated to a degree they did not aspire to by the opinions of others who didn't own "those" lines and therefore accused the Otts of manufacturing truths to promnote their own lines.

Mrs. E. Ott who handled the breeding did the following: The would pay for the transportation of ANY Blue Star mare to their farm to be bred to their stallion FOR FREE and the mare would have accomodation AND vet work FOR FREE because they believed in their program. For the story she had to kill them as she couldn't sell them...Lee Ollerich would have taken them ALL at a drop of a hat. It just did not happen with the alleged killing spree.

Another reason I do not believe the Billy Sheets story is I had a standing offer for ANY Blue Star mare for TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS. Mrs E Ott encouraged me to purchase from Lee Ollerich who was also in Canada. She did not feel they could spread the few mares they had around to breeders located too far away from Blue Star stallions.

Hansi...the fact you want individuals who disagree with you BANNED is a shame and takes away from you.. Many of us have proven our horses. U.S. Race Filly and Race Horse (Arabian) of the year was good enough for me..but then I did stand stallions that produced many race winners. Also Top Tens, Also performance. You have an incredible record, but not at the expense of the achievements of others.

Billy Sheets was a BRILLIANT YOUNG MAN WHO WAS AN EMOTIONAL WRECK. He most certainly can be forgiven considering who his father was and the treatment he received. His Dad starved all of those Arabians and it required intervention around 1995.

Hansi...you are a brilliant and caring person who has produced volumes of written works others would only dream of. The Otts did not steal your thunder nor that of anyone else.

I fail to see why there is this ongoing issue regarding the Blue Star Program...to quote yet again...THEY DID NOT CARE IF OTHERS AGREED OR NOT..they only defended themselves "at that time".

There is a real bottom line here. I have been around for far too long to continue to listen to and read posts that I know are not true.
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HLM
post Mar 19 2012, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 19 2012, 08:13 PM) *
It is a hard subject to understand as we only interpreted what someone else said or did. The important thing today is for US, the lovers and breeders of the Asil Arabian, to stick together, put aside our personal feeling for other people, and promote the Asil, which include the SE, SO, BS, BL, and those the Otts sub-listed. We need to stop ALL mud slinging and try to give a little space for everyone.

Bringing up old dead horses, questioning their provenance, questioning the Preservation groups or the people to breed and care for them is not helping save the horses that are import to us. We are few in the bigger scheme of things. a Million horses world wide and the Asil is many 10,000... scary to think that in one or two generations all our hard work will go for naught if we love new owners and breeders because of our attitude toward each other.



Yes Kimberly I agree, and that is what we did long ago.We simply have to cut out people who forever see bad things in everything some of us write, especially what I write.
It appears to me they are thriving on it, love shooting below the belt, and nobody objects, other than I.
Some of the trouble makers dont even own a horse any more, and some not even an Asil/SE.

it took many years for us oldies to learn, sacrifice, share and lateron educate with it. When I read something strange, I ask for an explanation. That would be a wise thing to do by others.

There is so much to learn yet, new discoveries done frequently and shared. Messengers of such should not be condomned, stalked, harrassed and held in ill meant shackels. It should be appreciated and thanks received.

I am in constant contact with other renowned researchers here and abroad and we share and assist each other in a dignified manner. Non of us are STUBBORN< to insist that the world is "FLAT" -SO TO SPEAK, when we all know better. We listen and bend considering new research. Right now Joe Ferris and I are working hard with our foreign
friends to help with the Tahawis.

I always was at the side of the Otts, to date, respect their work because this is hard work. To agree with all I cant.
Same goes for Raswan. Had Doug Marshall not jumped in and helped his family after his demise, I wonder what would have happened. All of us always jumped in and helped and enjoyed doing it, as I do todate.

However, none of us should stand by when corruption, politics and the likes are noticed and with it hurt many people. That takes courage for which one should be thanked and not beat up.
Often am I asked why I contiue supporting the forums. My answer always is " 99 out of 100 people out there are good ones, and the rest will sooner or later drown in their evil behavior.They show their true character fast."

I have in the past also helped a particular poster by consoling, having sympathy and actually made pedigrees I gave to prospective buyers abroad to help sell some of these horses. End result, after all the lovy dovy a horrible insulting post recently. That means we also have "two-faced" people which I dislike.And who wants to trust them or be part of them. How can I now ecommend such person!

Therefore, let us continue in peace, help each other and and understand each other's opinion, to agree or agree to disagree.

Have a nice day, all of you
Hansi






I always thought when some of us elders bring forth a particular subecjt, it is for the elarning.
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2mntn
post Mar 19 2012, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (Fairfax @ Mar 19 2012, 12:53 PM) *
Mrs E Ott was very protective of Miss Jane as was Bill Simpson. If there was something considered to be controversial Mrs E Ott would put her name to it. This is the problem with new comers to the breed. They do not understand "the rest of the story": so they only go by what they see...and of course..how would they know otherwise.

Mr. Raswan tried to get several breeders to set up a pure in strain Muniqui breeding farm. He believed they too had so much value and would be needed to "up grade the Polish" lines...especially for racing.

The fact he called them part Turcoman means nothing. He readily acknowledged that occured hundreds of years prior AND they were breeding pure to type. He always wanted Richard Pritzlaff to breed them..

Context and content can not be determined by a few articles here and there. One must look at the whole body of work AND also the written or verbal accounts of those who knew the person.

Example: I know Hansi loves her horses. I know Hansi wrote an ad threatening to kill them. Why would I only accept that Hansi was going to kill her horses if she could not sell them for outrageous prices based on ONE Ad? You should know there is so much more to Hansi however if you can't accept that about other authors, then you must hold Hansi to the same level. I know Hansi wrote her own ads AND had full control of them as I helped the late Sandi Fischer Lynch who was the editor of the Canadian Arabian Horse news and I remember the number of faxes that transpired before the ad was correct to the satisfaction of Hansi..and that is the way it should be.

For you now to put in a correction that those would be old or injured horses makes it SOUND even worse...why would you be trying to sell old and injured horses for $40,000 and up?

Again...The Otts did not care if anyone liked, didn't like believed or didn't believe. They became elevated to a degree they did not aspire to by the opinions of others who didn't own "those" lines and therefore accused the Otts of manufacturing truths to promnote their own lines.

Mrs. E. Ott who handled the breeding did the following: The would pay for the transportation of ANY Blue Star mare to their farm to be bred to their stallion FOR FREE and the mare would have accomodation AND vet work FOR FREE because they believed in their program. For the story she had to kill them as she couldn't sell them...Lee Ollerich would have taken them ALL at a drop of a hat. It just did not happen with the alleged killing spree.

Another reason I do not believe the Billy Sheets story is I had a standing offer for ANY Blue Star mare for TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS. Mrs E Ott encouraged me to purchase from Lee Ollerich who was also in Canada. She did not feel they could spread the few mares they had around to breeders located too far away from Blue Star stallions.

Hansi...the fact you want individuals who disagree with you BANNED is a shame and takes away from you.. Many of us have proven our horses. U.S. Race Filly and Race Horse (Arabian) of the year was good enough for me..but then I did stand stallions that produced many race winners. Also Top Tens, Also performance. You have an incredible record, but not at the expense of the achievements of others.

Billy Sheets was a BRILLIANT YOUNG MAN WHO WAS AN EMOTIONAL WRECK. He most certainly can be forgiven considering who his father was and the treatment he received. His Dad starved all of those Arabians and it required intervention around 1995.

Hansi...you are a brilliant and caring person who has produced volumes of written works others would only dream of. The Otts did not steal your thunder nor that of anyone else.

I fail to see why there is this ongoing issue regarding the Blue Star Program...to quote yet again...THEY DID NOT CARE IF OTHERS AGREED OR NOT..they only defended themselves "at that time".

There is a real bottom line here. I have been around for far too long to continue to listen to and read posts that I know are not true.


Thanks Leo. I am not exactly "new" to the breed - just "new" to some of this information. The problem with some of you who know "the rest of the story", is that you don't come right out and say it in the first place. When you first stated that JANE wrote EVERYTHING, why did you not include "the rest of the story" at that time? You could have said "Jane wrote everything, even the articles signed by her mother". I'll wager that this is something that few people know - even if they were there at the time.

I have nothing but respect for the Ott's and their work. My comment that "was it worth the million dollars?" had nothing to do with the work, but with the objective of that work and the benefits, if any, which have carried forward, by their own virtue, to the future. My personal wish, if I could have one, would be that the Blue program would have become a powerful organization, one which would have made TPS, AL Khamsa and Sheykh Obeyd superfluous, if not irrelevant. All of the components were there, but it would appear that the program lacked the kind of leadership to take it "to the moon", so to speak. Perhaps if the Ott's HAD cared more about gaining agreement and support, my wish would be granted.
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Nadj al Nur
post Mar 19 2012, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE (2mntn @ Mar 19 2012, 01:05 PM) *
Thanks Leo. I am not exactly "new" to the breed - just "new" to some of this information. The problem with some of you who know "the rest of the story", is that you don't come right out and say it in the first place. When you first stated that JANE wrote EVERYTHING, why did you not include "the rest of the story" at that time? You could have said "Jane wrote everything, even the articles signed by her mother". I'll wager that this is something that few people know - even if they were there at the time.

I have nothing but respect for the Ott's and their work. My comment that "was it worth the million dollars?" had nothing to do with the work, but with the objective of that work and the benefits, if any, which have carried forward, by their own virtue, to the future. My personal wish, if I could have one, would be that the Blue program would have become a powerful organization, one which would have made TPS, AL Khamsa and Sheykh Obeyd superfluous, if not irrelevant. All of the components were there, but it would appear that the program lacked the kind of leadership to take it "to the moon", so to speak. Perhaps if the Ott's HAD cared more about gaining agreement and support, my wish would be granted.

I don't think it was that the program lacked leadership. The program had a lot of "enemies in high places" so to speak, including, at that time the registry and many people with money and influence. That the program is still there and still well known, I think is quite something, in the face of all that.
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Kimberli
post Mar 19 2012, 08:20 PM
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The Blue Movement, as it was called by some, was a precursor to Al Khamsa! AK took the information already collect and carried it forward.

The trouble with most groups is that they defend fiercely what they create. Thus is the case of the Otts, especially Mrs. Ott. This brought out the so called "Fighten Side". made a lot of people mad to say the least. If you have not read the articles in the book, you need to read them. Some are so rude that the average Arabian breeder would be and was hurt by this written word. So the personal insults "went a flyin".

Kind of like today except it was between what she called General List Arabians and the Blues.. Even this was hurtful.

We won't even go into the word Mongrels....
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2mntn
post Mar 19 2012, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (Teymur B @ Mar 19 2012, 12:47 PM) *
Mu'niqi derives from the Arabian terms mi'niq or ma'naq for "long neck".
Here, long and angular body lines are the distinguishing mark.
Mu'niqis are long and narrow with a long neck, a long and not always strongly coupled back, long limbs and a comparatively long and narrow, sometimes coarse head without any dish and with smaller eyes set higher in the forehead.
Their withers are set higher, the root of the tail lower and the croup is sloping more.
A long shoulder, a long humerus, a short cannon bone and onot overly strongly angled hind legs also belong to this type.
As a reason for the development of this type, Raswan gives the explanation that from about 1630 on, some of the nomadic Bedouin tribes from the middle and the south of Arabia relocated their migrations into the areas to the west of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, getting into contact with the Turkomans living there.
They had their mares covered with Turkmen stallions: the resulting horse were Arabians with a "racing horse conformation" who were only marginally similar to the "classical types".
This Mare in the Picture is a Seklaviye Cedraniye, Tailfemale: Sapha.1923
You see, she is similar to the Mu'niqi Type.


The Bahraini Ma'anagi do not fit this description. They look more like the Kuhaylan or perhaps Hadban - in my opinion.
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HLM
post Mar 19 2012, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (Kimberli @ Mar 19 2012, 07:06 PM) *
Ray, When I read that ad, it was in 1986 right after I bought my beloved *Waheeb. I paid too much for him and was in hock for many years. I was new and IN LOVE with the Egyptian. I fell for the history and the Romance of the Arabian horse.

Hansi should never have said what she did. She has way to much love and respect for her horses to do what she said she would do. If she had said that she would need to put down the older horses that could not find good home it would have had a different impact on those who read it and I am sure it would not be repeated today. It is one of those many unfortunate things we live to regret.

I really don't think our values have changed that much since 1986. 1886 yes... It is not out of context, it is right there in front of us. She just did not mean EXACTLY what was printed. Those of us who have gotten to know her over the years understand what she was thinking.



Kimberly, you still dont get it. Half the time I leave it top the magazine to put my ad together. In this case I did and saw too late what was made out opf it.

If someone would have truly cared, they would have called me, and those who know me, having spent fortunes to save lives, still do, knew better. But some people love to shoot below the belt. Had this been one of you I would have said "No way, there is a mistake" I am calling her". , Not only this, I looked at the ad days later , read it hastily and did not even realy notice it until a friend called me and then lateron tried to have the magazine correct it.
You see, I give matters a benefit of a doubt and when it involved folks I know, I correct what I can, ask questions and dont condemn and smear people all over the place..

However, as you notice, only now this ad is placed here, a decade or more later. What do you think the motive of
Fairfax was/is? She would know that it meant trouble again. I also feel certain that she knows Serenity and me
quite well, if not in person.

Yes, how can we persue more people to join us when one or the other would face the same music. you tell me, please.

Take care
hansi

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